Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[Marilyn C]

Huh?
The subject gets omitted?
God's covenant Jews regrafted in.
You read those chapters and never knew the subject?

I am thinking you are replacement theology.

...nourishes us and Israel.

 

[Marilyn C]

No.
One new man is believers ....no matter what sex.
Not male and female characteristics.

You really struggle over the bride thingy.
There is a reason. A doctrinal wall that causes you to muddy that bible dynamic up.
You have also misplaced the 144,000, and struggle over the Jewish dynsmic.

So where are the scriptures saying that the Church is the Bride or the bride is the Church?

It is important for it leads to the wrong inheritance. We, the Body of Christ have been promised to sit with Christ on His own throne in the highest. (Rev. 3: 21) We do not come down out of heaven from God. We are in heaven with God.

 

[rebuilder 454]

So where are the scriptures saying that the Church is the Bride or the bride is the Church?

It is important for it leads to the wrong inheritance. We, the Body of Christ have been promised to sit with Christ on His own throne in the highest. (Rev. 3: 21) We do not come down out of heaven from God. We are in heaven with God.

Jesus first miracle was at a wedding.
The last supper Vividly mirrored the Jewish betrothal.
The bible ends with the bride calling out to the groom.
Luke 14 and mat 22 both have wedding parables.
2 Corinthians 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ


Mark 2:19
And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast

eph 5
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

 

[Marilyn C]

Jesus first miracle was at a wedding.
The last supper Vividly mirrored the Jewish betrothal.
The bible ends with the bride calling out to the groom.
Luke 14 and mat 22 both have wedding parables.
2 Corinthians 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ


Mark 2:19
And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast

eph 5
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Yes Jesus was comfirming the promises to Israel, (Rom. 15: 8) that they are the wife of God.

2 Cor. 11: 2 Paul is telling his disciples he desires them to be pure and that he will present them to the Lord. Paul does NOT present US to the Lord. The Lord Himself presents us to Himself. (Jude 24)

Eph. 5 is an exhortation to husbands to love their wives as their own body, just as Jesus loves His own BODY. Of which we are members.

 

[Marilyn C]

DOTL = day of the Lord.


Both Pretribbers and Preterists, and anyone else doing what they are wrongly doing, need to start paying closer attention to details and quit twisting the texts involved in order to get the DOTL to fit where it doesn't remotely fit. The DOTL does not fit at the beginning of great tribulation. It fits after great tribulation proved by all of the following. And there is even more passages than the following that proves it except I'm not going to list every single passage that might prove it.

The Day of the LORD.

The Day of the Lord has 2 meanings in Hebrew and Greek -

1. a specific day.

2. a period of time.

 

[Marilyn C]

 

[Marilyn C]

The Start of the Day of the LORD. (Period of Time.)

`Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm on my holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; for the Day of the LORD is coming, for it is at hand: a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

like the morning clouds spread over the mountains, a people come, great and strong, the like of whom has never been; not will there ever be any such after them, even for many successive generations…..

I will remove far from you the northern army and drive him away into a barren and desolate land…` (Joel 2: 1 & 2 & 20)



During the Day of the LORD. (Period of Time.)

`Then the 5th angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain..` (Rev. 16: 10)



The Specific Day of the LORD.

`I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there….` (Joel 3: 2)


`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)


`Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.` (Matt. 24: 29 & 30)

 

[Marilyn C]

The Body of Christ is NOT in the Day of the LORD.


`For you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the LORD so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and Safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labour pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

BUT YOU, brethren, are NOT in darkness so that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are NOT of the night nor of darkness.` (1 Thess. 2 – 5)

 

[amigo de christo]

@Spiritual Israelite

Hey I just got back from my daily run and thought I’d explain in little more detail my football analogy. Or parable… <smile>

Yeah, so… <smile> …God is obviously the:

• Coach Who puts you in (and keeps you in) the game
• Kicker/Punter Who kicks you the ball
• Quarterback Who throws you the ball or hands it off to you

And you have been… infused… with the… “talent” <chuckles> …and the all-in-for-the-team attitude of Jesus… and are even wearing His jersey (#1, obviously), so you will not fail, even if it looks inevitable at times.

And to your little… objection… that “a kick returner can choose whether to receive a kickoff or punt or not... can choose to just let the ball go if they want or they can choose to receive it,” regardless of the case, it’s still your ball, so… you… as the returner… received it. <smile> It’s your team’s ball, and you are on offense. So, you know, you still received the ball… <chuckles>

Ohhhh… now, you might, um, you know, forget the play the Coach or QB called, or run the wrong way from time to time, or even fumble (GASP!). These are sins… but don’t worry, the Coach will still keep you in, forgiving you for your miscues (because you are wearing Jesus’s #1 jersey)… and because the Father “drafted you” and has “coached you up,” and Jesus Himself is the author and finisher/perfecter of your… “receiving,” “running,” and “catching.” If you fumble, you have the Holy Spirit, so you’ll recover the ball… remember the play… overcome all adversity… <smile> And ultimately, you will score… and win. Because Jesus long ago sealed the final outcome…

That was fun. LOL!

Yeah cheers. Grace and peace to you. <smile>

And yet many who play in this realm of what they beleive is football for the LORD ,
they been playing for the side of the enemy all along .
As they keep scoring ecumenical touchdowns and their cheer leaders sing praises of a love that is of the world
and not GOD . Oh the jerseys might appear as wool but in their hearts their l ove is for a lie
that has made the path to GOD very broad .
And now this referee has to remove illegal plays being done under the guise its of GOD when it clearly is of the other team .
Known as the all inclusive diverse team of the inclusive god .

 

[amigo de christo]

Huh?
The subject gets omitted?
God's covenant Jews regrafted in.
You read those chapters and never knew the subject?

I am thinking you are replacement theology.

always remember , that anyone playing for and being a co helper
to the ecumiencal inclusive diverse and strange love of an interfaith harlot
HAS REPLACED THE ONE TRUE GOD and HIS CHRIST FOR A LIE .
And no one wants to do that or be co helper to those who do such a thing .
Seems like this generation and many within it
have replaced THE BIBLICAL GOD and HIS BIBLICAL CHRIST
for a god and another christ who has trod under foot the words and gospel of THE ONE TRUE GOD and OF HIS CHRIST .
And have replaced him with another image that be of the inclusive god . And that god is NOT GOD
but desires to be worshipped as GOD . So do know and do understand
when the one true gospel of YE MUST REPENT and BELEIVE ON JESUS for to be saved
GETS replaced with a , HEY all religions be serving the same GOD
And let us be one for world peace and find our common ground ,
ALL who do enter into covenant with that , THEY GONNA WAIL loudly on JESUS DAY .
SO do keep that in mind and let none who name the NAME OF JESUS
in any way be a supporter of and co helper to an ecumencial interfaith of anti christ and its peace plan

 

[amigo de christo]

...nourishes us and Israel.

nourishes ONLY THOSE WHOSE FAITH BE IN JESUS CHRIST .
all else will wail and scream in terror on THE DAY OF THE LORD .
JESUS did not come to jews could reject him and john hagees and others act as if IT DONT MATTER .
No mam , and no sirs , and NO IT WONT be tolerated or even permitted or allowed ON MY WATCH .
IF a jew , if a gentile , recieves HIS testimony they have set to their seal that GOD IS TRUE .
IF a jew or a gentile beleives NOT the testimony GOD gave of the SON , WELL THEY CALL GOD A LIAR .
NO acceptions . A jew can and will wail just as loudly as can and will a gentile
ON JESUS D AY , IF they rejected HE IS THE CHRIST , THE SON OF GOD , THAT HE paid the price of our sins
and THAT GOD rose him again ON the third day .
Now some might be wondering why on earth i am such a stickler to this FACT .
SO now for why i do as i do . CAUSE I POINT TO JESUS and not the flesh of man .
And how i suggest all go and do likewise .

 

[Marvelloustime]

nourishes ONLY THOSE WHOSE FAITH BE IN JESUS CHRIST .
all else will wail and scream in terror on THE DAY OF THE LORD .
JESUS did not come to jews could reject him and john hagees and others act as if IT DONT MATTER .
No mam , and no sirs , and NO IT WONT be tolerated or even permitted or allowed ON MY WATCH .
IF a jew , if a gentile , recieves HIS testimony they have set to their seal that GOD IS TRUE .
IF a jew or a gentile beleives NOT the testimony GOD gave of the SON , WELL THEY CALL GOD A LIAR .
NO acceptions . A jew can and will wail just as loudly as can and will a gentile
ON JESUS D AY , IF they rejected HE IS THE CHRIST , THE SON OF GOD , THAT HE paid the price of our sins
and THAT GOD rose him again ON the third day .
Now some might be wondering why on earth i am such a stickler to this FACT .
SO now for why i do as i do . CAUSE I POINT TO JESUS and not the flesh of man .
And how i suggest all go and do likewise .

@amigo de christo

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We are NOT a male and a female - but the NEW MAN, which we are to put on and come to a perfect MAN. MAN as in incorporating male and female characteristics. We are not one or the other.

The new MAN is neither male nor female. It's simply a reference to the church consisting of Jew and Gentile believers together as one body of Christ and one "holy temple in the Lord", as Paul explained in Ephesians 2:11-22. Why are you trying to place physical characteristics on a spiritual entity? Scripture does not do that, so neither should you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you are Following Satan as the accuser of the brethren.
All talk and evil against the brethren
Sad.

And what about all of your many accusations of the post-trib brethren like me? Somehow, it's okay for you, but not for others? Why are you such a hypocrite?

Suits you somehow ...Accuse then run away.

You are the one who runs away when challenged to a debate. WPM challenged you to a debate about the relevant scriptures and you didn't accept it. Why not?

Plain childish.
You have always spewed hate and nastiness.
You must be one miserable individual.

Do I need to show you all of your posts featuring your hate and nastiness towards post-tribs? Look in the mirror and stop being so hypocritical. Just address the post-trib arguments instead of falsely accusing us of not making any and create coherent arguments to support your own view using scripture. Can you do that instead of all your childish ranting?

 

[rebuilder 454]

always remember , that anyone playing for and being a co helper
to the ecumiencal inclusive diverse and strange love of an interfaith harlot
HAS REPLACED THE ONE TRUE GOD and HIS CHRIST FOR A LIE .
And no one wants to do that or be co helper to those who do such a thing .
Seems like this generation and many within it
have replaced THE BIBLICAL GOD and HIS BIBLICAL CHRIST
for a god and another christ who has trod under foot the words and gospel of THE ONE TRUE GOD and OF HIS CHRIST .
And have replaced him with another image that be of the inclusive god . And that god is NOT GOD
but desires to be worshipped as GOD . So do know and do understand
when the one true gospel of YE MUST REPENT and BELEIVE ON JESUS for to be saved
GETS replaced with a , HEY all religions be serving the same GOD
And let us be one for world peace and find our common ground ,
ALL who do enter into covenant with that , THEY GONNA WAIL loudly on JESUS DAY .
SO do keep that in mind and let none who name the NAME OF JESUS
in any way be a supporter of and co helper to an ecumencial interfaith of anti christ and its peace plan

Ok
Yes stay away from false doctrine.
I hope you can change everything you are falsely believing by connecting the dots of the word of God.
Stop every falsehood you are believing.
Don't be a harlot with those false teachers.
Don't partake of the poison.
Study the one true true gospel.
Don't be decieved.
Stop eating at the table of false teachers.
Stop eating the forbidden fruit.

Back atcha.

 

[rebuilder 454]

And yet many who play in this realm of what they beleive is football for the LORD ,
they been playing for the side of the enemy all along .
As they keep scoring ecumenical touchdowns and their cheer leaders sing praises of a love that is of the world
and not GOD . Oh the jerseys might appear as wool but in their hearts their l ove is for a lie
that has made the path to GOD very broad .
And now this referee has to remove illegal plays being done under the guise its of GOD when it clearly is of the other team .
Known as the all inclusive diverse team of the inclusive god .

Oh I see this daily.
The many pretrib rapture verses cast down.
Then the false doctrine followers scoring their make believe touchdowns with many empty sentences of CONJECTURE.
That what you are talking about?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I strongly disagree, both verses Luke 21:24 & Revelation 11:2 are speaking of an earthly Jerusalem

Honestly, I couldn't care less if you strongly disagree. I don't buy into your hyper-futurist approach to end times doctrine.

You neglect to observe the context of scripture in Revelation Chapter 11 and replace the literal physical Jerusalem on earth with a spiritual New Jerusalem

You neglect to see how the book of Revelation defines the holy city and how the rest of scripture defines the temple of God. Earthly Jerusalem is NOT the holy city! How can you not know this? And no future physical temple can possibly be the temple of God. How can you not know this? God does not dwell in temples made with hands (Acts 7:48, Acts 17:24) and His temple, whether physical or spiritual, has always been one that He ordained and dwelled in. How can you think any future physical temple could be considered God's temple? That's impossible.

You will closely note Revelation 11:2 that the trampling under foot of Jerusalem will be 42 months, heavenly New Jerusalem has no earthly time of 42 months, its eternal

The 42 months, as all time periods in Revelation including the thousand years, are symbolic.

You will closely note that their dead bodies will lay in a literal street where Jesus was crucified, earthly "Jerusalem"

He was not crucified in Jerusalem. The great city is spiritually/figuratively called Sodom, Egypt and Babylon. That does not describe earthly Jerusalem. It is the spiritual opposite of the new heavenly Jerusalem, which is "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Revelation 21:9-10).

John 19:20 Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

You will closely note that those upon the earth will celebrate their deaths

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The two witnesses symbolically represent the church. That's how their deaths will be celebrated around the world. It's celebrating the death of the witness/preaching of the gospel. It is silenced by all of the false teaching in the world in the time before Christ returns. That's what the 3.5 days symbolically represents, which is Satan's little season.

Below you see the word "Temple" and the word "Delusion" found in only two places in my KJV Holy Bible, both instances are in association with a "Temple" with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 showing future events that surround the future second coming of Jesus Christ

Yes scripture strongly suggest that there will be some sort of a temple in Jerusalem, with renewed animal sacrifice, and yes this is an abomination to the cross of Calvary

Impossible! Jesus made animal sacrifices obsolete with His once for all sacrifice when His shed blood established the new covenant. You are agreeing with dispensationalist falsehood. No future physical temple can possibly be the temple of God, as I explained earlier. This is very serious error that you are committing with your beliefs by suggesting that God would ordain and dwell in a temple made by antichrists. Paul taught that the temple of God now is the church.

Scripture Clearly Shows This "Temple" and "Delusion" are future unfulfilled

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I agree that this is talking about the future. Will you PLEASE STOP wasting your time making strawman arguments? Do you really want to waste your time doing that? Address what I believe, not what some strawman preterist believes. I see the above passage as relating to a mass falling away from the church, resulting in people who are in the church falling away and deciding that they don't need God anymore and essentially considering themselves to be God instead because of it. I relate that passage to Satan's little season. Do you think that Satan's little season is not referenced in any way anywhere in scripture except in Revelation 20? Notice that what is described in that passage relates to a future time that will be "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders...". It's describing how things are during Satan's little season when Satan and wickedness is no longer restrained.

You can't contradict scripture by thinking that some future physical temple could possible be God's temple. God's temple has NEVER been one that He didn't ordain and didn't dwell in. Think about that.

 

[David in NJ]

So you are Following Satan as the accuser of the brethren.
All talk and evil against the brethren
Sad.

Suits you somehow ...Accuse then run away.
Plain childish.
You have always spewed hate and nastiness.
You must be one miserable individual.

Some of the nastiest 'christians' i have met so far are pre-tribbers.

Which is to be expected since they teach/preach falsehood by re-arranging God's words to support a lie.

Remember what JESUS said to the Jews who falsely accused Him?

“I do not receive honor from men. 42But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

You need to heed these words of CHRIST = over and over until you understand how God sees our hearts

 

[David in NJ]

Oh I see this daily.
The many pretrib rapture verses cast down.

LOL x100

You have not posted one pre-trib verse!!!

How many years do you need to just find one???

 

[rebuilder 454]

The Body of Christ is NOT in the Day of the LORD.


`For you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the LORD so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and Safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labour pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

BUT YOU, brethren, are NOT in darkness so that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are NOT of the night nor of darkness.` (1 Thess. 2 – 5)

Honest end time study incorporates all context and rejects doctrines based on omission.
The "going through the trib" belief is made up.
Bible facts:
1) the AC is given power to overcome the saints
2) every human on the planet, not a believer, either takes the mark, or is martyred.
3) 1 thes 4 says the dead in christ rise first.
That ONLY fits a pretrib rapture.
What is postribs main talking point?
"Only one coming at the white horses 2nd coming of rev 19"
That is a huge problem.
In fact they themselves destroy their own doctrine.
The gathering of rev 14:14 is BEFORE the second coming.
Postribs are actually oblivious to the Fact that they claim a gathering / resurrection AFTER rev 14's gathering BY JESUS DURING THE TRIB.
Was the bible wrong that the dead in Christ
DO NOT RISE FIRST??????
Now, why promote a failed doctrine???? ?
I just sank their entire navy.
Postrib rapture is impossible on those 2 points.
Impossible.