rebuilder 454 noted: "incorrect"
That is a logical fallacy known as "begging the question."
If you disagree, then I invite you to explain why *from the Bible.*
Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.
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That is a logical fallacy known as "begging the question."
If you disagree, then I invite you to explain why *from the Bible.*
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Precious friend, no problem = full Bible study!:
God's Great GRACE Departure!
----------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:
The Bible: The BIG Picture
Amen.
Part of the problem here is that everybody here thinks they are.... "rightly dividing" Scripture. So just saying, "I'm doing that and you're not!"... everybody here is doing that, and thinks they're right. Right? <smile> So anyone here can offer their opinion, and in the end, that's all they're doing. And anyone here may say... and probably will... "This is not my opinion, it's what Scripture says!" And, in their opinion... <chuckles> ...yes, that's what it says ~ really what it means, actually, not merely what it says, because there is no debate regarding just the words; they are what they are ~ in their opinion.
Grace and peace to you, GA.
Davy
Well-Known Member
If all that were true the it would mean God wasted His time with His promise that His written Word would be kept for all generations. No one would understand it.
Not at all. I'm not even sure how you come to that conclusion, but no matter. Like Peter says (citing Isaiah, of course), "all flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains/endures forever." Fortunately, we have the Spirit.
Grace and peace to you, Davy.
Does someone lose their salvation if they take the Mark of the Beast ? Yes.
How does someone lose their salvation under the Gospel as taught by Paul ?
+++
The Gospel :-
Gal 1:11-12
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
++++++++++++
The PERFORMANCE conditions :-
Titus 3:
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Rom 3:
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Davy
Well-Known Member
Whoah...! One would have to chop off huge chunks of God's written Word to believe the above.
Even though the word 'rapture' is not in The Bible, it did come from the Latin translation of the Greek word harpazo which is... in The Bible NT manuscripts. Harpazo is translated to "caught up" in 1 Thess.4, and in 2 Cor.12 and Rev.12:5. The main problem today with that word rapture is how the pre-trib school tries to steal it to mean a rapture prior... to the tribulation which is not written.
And there will be a future time of "great tribulation" in the last generation of this world, the generation that will see Christ returning in the clouds. According to Bible prophecy we today are in that final generation. Lord Jesus covered this matter in His Olivet discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, and in the Seals of Rev.6. So I don't know where you have been that made you miss that Bible study.
<chuckles> Disagree, of course...
Sure. When Jesus comes back (bringing all the saints who have gone on before), He will seize ~ in the sense of finally claiming, taking back, and redeeming all that is His, all of creation included. It is not in the sense of "removing" anybody and taking them... anywhere. Satan will be finally and utterly defeated, and the general resurrection will occur ~ "those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:29). Then the final Judgment, executed by Jesus, as He depicts graphically in Matthew 25:31-46, will occur, upon completion of which those on His left (the unrepentant, the wicked, the unsaved, those not of God's elect) will depart and enter into eternal punishment, which is the second death.
Well, yes, but not in the sense that it will be outside, or after, this tribulation period that we are now in, but rather in the sense that, as I have said several times in several threads, there will be a great ramping up of this tribulation near the end, a great final conflict, if you will. But then... Jesus will return, and... see directly above.
It'll happen, yes, but "in the clouds" (Revelation 1:7) ... means something different (just a bit... <chuckles> ...than many think. I mean, we know He's going to return in the same manner that He ascended, as documented in Acts 1, according to the angel who spoke to the disciples in verses 10 and 11. And we know that "every eye will see Him," according to Revelation 1:7. But yeah, "in the clouds" in the same verse of course... He will be coming in judgment, which is how that is to be understood. I mean, it may actually be a cloudless day... <smile>
Agree, but if you understand that to be in the final 25 years or so... <smile> I mean, that may in fact be the case, but that's not the sense in which this generation is meant. <smile>
Now, please understand that, despite what you may or may not think, I am absolutely not denying any passage of Scripture you are referring to, or adding anything to it, but understanding those passages in a... slightly <chuckles> ...different sense than... well, at least premillennialists and futurists. <smile>
Not in, um, bad ones... <smile>
Grace and peace to you, Davy.
But if they have been born again of the Spirit, they will not "take the Mark of the Beast." Because their will is no longer to do the will of their former father, the devil (John 6, 8, and 10) but to do the will of the Father.
Never does Paul teach or even insinuate that we can lose our salvation. He repeats over and over again throughout all his letters that, well, in the words he writes to the Romans, for example, at the end of Romans 8, "No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:37-39), and Romans 11, "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29).
Interesting citations, all of yours here. It seems that even in reading them, I come to the exact opposite conclusion, that he teaches that we absolutely cannot lose our salvation, that we are absolutely secure in Christ, and Jesus affirms this, of course, especially in saying (for example, because this is not the only one), "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30). And of course Peter says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).
Grace and peace to you, Peter.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Well, yes it is written that His saints still alive on earth will be "caught up" to Him on His way to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. It is written in 1 Thess.4:13-17 and in Zechariah 14. That is not a rapture to heaven, it is a change of location upon the earth for the still alive saints. For the saints that have already died, they are raised then and Jesus brings them with Him back to earth.
Only a separation between the goats (wicked) and His sheep (saints) will take place on the day of Jesus' future return. The wicked dead are raised then, and also placed in separation with the goats. All the goats will still be subject to the "second death" that only will occur later after God's Great White Throne Judgment at the end of Christ's "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20.
The coming time of "great tribulation" when the false-Messiah arrives in Jerusalem, and sits in the 3rd stone temple to be built there like Paul showed in 2 Thess.2, will be a time of world peace, not all out war and chaos. Apostle Paul even said in 1 Thess.5 that when the deceived say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. Paul was pulling from the Old Testament prophets about that.
That means... that the coming "great tribulation" is not going to be how it is popularly taught. It will affect the deceived one way, and Christ's elect another way. The deceived will have things good, as they will believe the false-Messiah is God having come to fix all the world's problems. But Christ's elect who will know who that coming false-Messiah/Antichrist really is, will be hunted by that false one and his host, and some of us will be delivered up to give a Testimony for Jesus by The Holy Spirit. Even deceived family members will have Christ's "very elect" delivered up thinking they are doing a good thing.
That day of His coming, the "day of the Lord" on the "last trump", Paul mentioned those alive being changed at the twinkling of an eye. That is about our flesh body being cast off to reveal our "spiritual body", our "image of the heavenly" Paul also pointed to. The heavenly dimension is going to be revealed right here, on earth, at that point. And that will be accomplished by God's consuming fire burning the works of man off the surface of this earth. It will be immediately after that change how Jesus will gather His still alive saints and take them with Him to the Mount of Olives. When Paul said "sudden destruction" in 1 Thess.5, he was pulling from the Old Testament prophets about the events that occur very rapidly on that "day of the Lord". We who are still alive have no need to escape that consuming fire, even as the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than needed in Daniel 3 serves as an ensample for Christ's elect.
The word generation that Jesus mentioned with commanding we learn the parable of the fig tree does... mean a literal period of time regarding a generation of peoples. Some try... to change that meaning, but the context of what Jesus said there makes doing that impossible, as He was pointing to the FINAL generation living upon this earth that will SEE all these things, meaning the SIGNS leading up to His future return that He was giving in His Olivet discourse.
Understanding Christ's parable of the fig tree has nothing to do with men's seminary theories like premillianilism or futurism, etc. Those are only man-made excuses to try and twist the meaning of that Scripture into something else other than what it means. And doing that IS... ADDING AND TAKING AWAY from Bible Scripture as written, which those in Christ have been warned not to do.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
The goats represent the resurrected wicked dead which are those whose names are not written in the book of life. Do you claim that the following verse won't be fulfilled until 1,000+ years after Jesus returns?
Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
First let me say, Davy, that at least to this point, I appreciate your conversational tone. Again, at least to this point, it's different than what it has been at times in the past, and different from recent conversations I've had with some other posters here... <smile> Anyway...
Others not so much; those who have passed on previous to Jesus's return will be reunited with their physical bodies also, in having been resurrected to judgment, along with those resurrected to eternal life. But they will not be changed in the above sense, and will be on the wrong side of the final Judgment... and will then enter into eternal punishment, into the second death.
I'm detecting a tone change... <chuckles>
Grace and peace to you, Davy.
Agree, generally, yes, and those elect who are still alive at the time of His return will go out to meet him, and join Him in His descent to earth, yes. Like going out to escort a returning King, which is... well... what will happen. But this is not really the crux of what we're disagreeing on, I think...
Agree with this, generally, also, except I would say that the bodies of the saints who have gone on before will be raised also. And yes, a separation... many will be on Jesus's right, and the others on Jesus's left, as we see in Matthew 25. And those on Jesus's left will be subject to... and ultimately subjected to... the second death, whereas those on His right will not be. I'm... pretty sure... <smile> the only thing we disagree on here, really, is when that "thousand years" is.
This I disagree with almost in its entirety... except for "the coming time of great tribulation." <smile>
Well sure, Jesus's return will be sudden, and the final Judgment will ensue in short order. Yes, sudden destruction ~ but not in the sense of annihilation or ceasing to exist; not sure if that's what you mean here or not, but not in that sense ~ will most certainly come upon them, exactly as written, for sure.
Hmmmm... Okay, so this would be my position here: This time of great tribulation ~ this final conflict ~ will not affect anyone any differently in the respect that it will be terribly hard, terribly difficult, even for the elect. But that time will be cut short, for the sake of the elect, as Christ Himself says in Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:20. But even during this time, the elect will have ~ as we do now ~ the Holy Spirit with us, and Jesus, just as He said He would be in Matthew 28:20, so we can take comfort in that, and endure to the end.
Hm. Not sure if you're saying some are more elect than other members of God's elect, but... I hope not. <smile>
Hmmm. Well, Davy, I would say that's a misunderstanding of what Paul pointed to in 1 Corinthians 15, which I think is what you're referring to. Unless by "flesh body" you mean sinfulness, but I don't think that's what you mean. We will all be changed in the twinkling of an eye, yes, and we will change to the state that Adam and Eve were in at the time of their creation, before the Fall of Genesis 3. We ~ along with all creation ~ will then finally be made new, which is what God promises in Revelation 21:5.
Others not so much; those who have passed on previous to Jesus's return will be reunited with their physical bodies also, in having been resurrected to judgment, along with those resurrected to eternal life. But they will not be changed in the above sense, and will be on the wrong side of the final Judgment... and will then enter into eternal punishment, into the second death.
Sure. After the final Judgment, the marriage supper of the Lamb and the ushering in of God's Kingdom in its fullness... the new heaven and new earth. Sure.
God is the consuming fire. All of creation will be finally made new, in the manner described above. He will purify it, once and for all.
Well, right, we will be glad for it. <smile> We will be overjoyed when Christ returns. <smile>
Well, again, I agree, but not in the sense in which I think you mean that, in the sense in which you seem to understand it.
Yes, but... <smile>
Yes, but... <smile>
Hmmm, well, if you are not premillennial, and not futurist, in your eschatological understanding, then that's good. But it seems to me from our past conversations that you are a futurist, and a lot of what you've said here seems to confirm that.
I'm detecting a tone change... <chuckles>
Grace and peace to you, Davy.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
No sir.
The setting for the rapture of the church is opposite your setting.
The bible teaches a pretrib rapture.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Yes
The big picture would include God's purpose for the rapture, the 2 wives, the 3 comings, what happens in heaven, and the purpose of the 7 yr trib.
Some here do not have any of that on the table.
Have no clue.
And resist any in depth Bible investigation.
Actually celebrate that investigation is, in their minds, evil.
Davy
Well-Known Member
So according to the false doctrine of men you follow, the "outer darkness" is the future "lake of fire" of Revelation 20 which that Chapter says only happens after Christ's future "thousand years" reign and GWTJ?
Rev 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV
Jesus spoke the following about the day of His 2nd coming, which is PRIOR to His "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. On the that day of His coming is when these are cast to the "outer darkness", which means... the "outer darkness" CANNOT be the "lake of fire", since the abode of hell (Hades) will only go into the "lake of fire" after... the Rev.20 "thousand years".
Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV
That time when many shall come from the east and west, and sit down with Abraham, etc., is on the day of Christ's future return, immediately prior to the start of Christ's "thousand years" reign. The "second death", which is the casting of the soul into the "lake of fire", only occurs AFTER the GWTJ which is after the "thousand years" of Rev.20.
Matt 22:12-14
12 And he saith unto him, 'Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?' And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
KJV
Matt 25:29-30
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV
Those are cast into the abode of hell (Hades) which is NOT the "lake of fire". You doctrine of men is confused about the difference between the "outer darkness" and the perishing at the "lake of fire" of Rev.20:14. Another proof of this is that no soul except Satan and his angels are sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire" UNTIL THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT that is for AFTER the Rev.20 "thousand years."
Well, yes, it will certainly be rebuilt, and God, it's Designer and Builder, is doing that right now. As the writer of Hebrews says, even Abraham "was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God" (11:10). We, rebuilder, we who are in Christ, are together, are being "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him (we) are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit" (Paul, Ephesians 2:19-22).
Grace and peace to you.
Davy
Well-Known Member
If you're referring to a literal raising of the flesh body, that's not what God's Word shows with the future resurrection. Eccl.12:5-7, 2 Cor.5, 1 Cor.15, are Biblical proofs that when our flesh body dies it is cast off and we will never need it anymore. That because Paul showed we each already have another body, one that is non-material eternal in the heavens from God. Paul called it the "spiritual body" and "image of the heavenly". It is a body type like the angels, not flesh.
In order for the events written in Rev.20 about those still subject to the "second death", it has to mean the goats on the left hand that are still unsaved and without Christ. Rev.20 is pointing to whole nations of the unsaved in that time that will be deceived by Satan after the "thousand years" once he is loosed in final from his pit prison and allowed to deceive them.
The "dead" of Rev.20:5 is about the goats who are without Christ. It is meant in the spiritual dead sense, because on the day of Christ's return, this present world of man in flesh bodies will be ended. Lord Jesus actually revealed this spiritually dead state when He pointed to the blind Pharisees metaphorically being like whited tombs which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones. Being spiritually dead without Christ simply means not "born again" by The Spirit through Faith on Jesus Christ and being baptized like His Apostles showed. Those not "born again" in Christ will still have mortal liable to perish souls, which is what being subject to the "second death" means. Thus the "resurrection of damnation" is still a raising to the "spiritual body", i.e. the "image of the heavenly", but for the unsaved who still will have perishable souls subject to the later... "lake of fire".
Well, the time Jesus called the "beginning of sorrows" is not the "great tribulation" time. We right now are in the "beginning of sorrows", with kingdoms fighting against kingdoms wars not having stopped yet, many earthquakes, famines (Somalia was really a bad one caused by its warlords), pestilences (Aids, Covid 19, West Nile virus, etc.).
The "great tribulation" Jesus showed is kicked off by the coming of the false-Messiah and placing of the "abomination of desolation" in the temple at Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15 forward). At Matthew 24:6, Jesus showed as long as we hear of wars and rumors of war, to not be troubled for those things must be, BUT the END is not yet. The end He was pointing to is the "great tribulation" time.
In Daniel 8, for the latter times, we are shown this about the coming Antichrist at the end...
Dan 8:23-25
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
KJV
That "Prince of princes" is about Messiah, Jesus Christ. That "he shall also stand up" in the Hebrew means making a stand. That is pointing to the day of Christ's 2nd coming to destroy that false one at the end, with the brightness of Christ's coming. Thus that Dan.8 section about that "king" is definitely meant for the very end of this world.
This was not addressed to me, but I'm speaking to this anyway... <smile>
So, okay. No, not exactly. <smile> How can there be a lake, which is a body of water, made up of fire? On its face, if taken absolutely, woodenly literally, those two things cannot co-exist or be the same thing. Water (enough of it, anyway) extinguishes fire, and a fire cannot burn while wet with water. So, I encourage you, Davy, to think of it as a very shocking image ~ that's what it is meant to be ~ in the light that those who are "thrown into it" ~ having been found to be on the wrong side of the final Judgment, the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20, executed by Christ Himself ~ being then absolutely immersed in, even consumed in, God's judgment. God is, by His own assertion, this consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3;, Hebrews 10:27, 29).
This is true, except for the word 'future' regarding the "thousand years" reign. <smile> Jesus is our King. Right now. He reigns. On the throne of David, who in a lesser sense pointed to the Greater David, Jesus, in His place of power, at the right hand of God, over Greater Israel, which is inclusive of all Jews and Gentiles called by God.
Grace and peace to you, Davy.
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