By grace through faith

[Duckybill]

Ducky your refusal to deal with all of the scriptures makes it obvious that this discussion has become futile, to continue would warrant an in depth look at the Hebrew and Greek texts of which seems to exceed the range of your comprehension level.

Hope you mature and grow in the knowledge of Christ. God bless

C'mon Jiggy, admit that if you are right then I can't lose. But if you are wrong ...

 

[aspen]

C'mon Jiggy, admit that if you are right then I can't lose. But if you are wrong ...

Ah Pascal's wager......the least compelling reason to be a Christian. If this was the only reason to choose a fear-based, slavish relationship with a vindictive God, just to avoid Hell; I would eat drink and be merry because tomorrow we die and go to Hell I or Hell II.

 

[Duckybill]

Ah Pascal's wager......the least compelling reason to be a Christian. If this was the only reason to choose a fear-based, slavish relationship with a vindictive God, just to avoid Hell; I would eat drink and be merry because tomorrow we die and go to Hell I or Hell II.

Jiggy says that I'm going to be saved regardless. I say that I'm going to be saved because I fear provoking Him and I desire to please Him. I can't lose.

 

[aspen]

Jiggy says that I'm going to be saved regardless. I say that I'm going to be saved because I fear provoking Him and I desire to please Him. I can't lose.

You sound like that dwarf slave of the Ice Queen in "the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe". Only whipped dogs and abused slaves fear provoking their masters......

John 15:15
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

 

[Duckybill]

You sound like that dwarf slave of the Ice Queen in "the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe". Only whipped dogs and abused slaves fear provoking their masters......

How about the writers of the Bible? Have you read the Bible Aspen?

Proverbs 22:4 (NKJV)
4 By humility and the fear of the LORD Are riches and honor and life.

John 15:15
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

And that's fine as long as you don't omit the other 99.9% of the Bible.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 (KJV)
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

 

[aspen]

How about the writers of the Bible? Have you read the Bible Aspen?

Proverbs 22:4 (NKJV)
4 By humility and the fear of the LORD Are riches and honor and life.

And that's fine as long as you don't omit the other 99.9% of the Bible.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 (KJV)
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

So you are dismissing the verse I offer?? That verse is straight from Jesus - I am shocked Ducky! Furthermore, your misinterpretation of the word 'fear' in the Bible is well documented elsewhere.

 

[Duckybill]

So you are dismissing the verse I offer?? That verse is straight from Jesus - I am shocked Ducky!

I don't 'dismiss' anything Jesus said. But I know that some pervert what He said.

Furthermore, your misinterpretation of the word 'fear' in the Bible is well documented elsewhere.

Since I didn't give an "interpretation" that makes you wrong. And since you didn't give Scripture that makes you wrong again.

 

[Duckybill]

Since I tried to send a message of peace and friendship to you and you rejected it, it is clear that you are not a forgiving person. I forgive you Aspen.

 

[aspen]

Since I tried to send a message of peace and friendship to you and you rejected it, it is clear that you are not a forgiving person. I forgive you Aspen.

Well, I appreciate your forgiveness, but I am not sure what you are talking about

I don't 'dismiss' anything Jesus said. But I know that some pervert what He said.

Since I didn't give an "interpretation" that makes you wrong. And since you didn't give Scripture that makes you wrong again.

And yet, you have clearly reject the message of the verse from the mouth of Jesus.....hmmm.

See #44 'I fear provoking' - I believe that is an interpretation of the word 'fear'.

 

[Duckybill]

Well, I appreciate your forgiveness, but I am not sure what you are talking about

I tried to send you a PM that was rejected. A glitch perhaps?

 

[aspen]

I tried to send you a PM that was rejected. A glitch perhaps?

I guess - try it again.

 

[Duckybill]

I guess - try it again.

No matter. I was simply saying that I'm sure you are a decent person.

 

[aspen]

No matter. I was simply saying that I'm sure you are a decent person.

Well, thank you Ducky! I realize we disagree, often; however, I am glad that you post here and I believe you are a decent person as well. I also realized that I have teased you too much and, therefore I ask your forgiveness. Despite the rhetoric, I have learned quite a bit from you.

 

[Duckybill]

Well, thank you Ducky! I realize we disagree, often; however, I am glad that you post here and I believe you are a decent person as well. I also realized that I have teased you too much and, therefore I ask your forgiveness. Despite the rhetoric, I have learned quite a bit from you.

Thanks Aspen. You are certainly special to me.

"You always hurt the one you love".

 

[aspen]

Thanks Aspen. You are certainly special to me.

"You always hurt the one you love".

hehe

 

[Duckybill]

hehe

Many years ago my wife and I separated. I loved her more than anything except God. I trusted in God's MANY promises to bring her back to me. Today we are together. She recently said she loves me more than ever. God's Word, the Bible, brought her back to me.

1 John 3:22 (NKJV)
22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

The Bible is true.

 

[jiggyfly]

C'mon Jiggy, admit that if you are right then I can't lose. But if you are wrong ...

I know you think that you know what and how I believe, but your assumptions are wrong, so I'd be careful wagering on what you think I believe.

At any rate were done on this topic, I see no reason to continue with something that is simply beyond your scope.

 

[Prentis]

Respectfully, I disagree. The grace of God is not just a tool...it is everything. Jesus did not suffer death and isolation from the Father just to give us the ability to work towards God's throne. Jesus died to take all our sins away...to propitiate...the one action took away the Father's wrath that was directed against us. The Bible says that that wrath is removed...not hovering, ready to come back...but gone.

[21] For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
(2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV)

[9] Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. [10] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. [11] More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
(Romans 5:9-11 ESV)

[16] and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
(Ephesians 2:16 ESV)

[19] For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, [20] and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. [21] And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, [22] he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, [23] if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. (Colossians 1:19-23 ESV)

Paul here says "if you continue"... The form of this phrase in Greek (using the Gk. particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed.

Nevertheless, the statement does show that faithfulness to the end is essential in the Christian life...I would not debate that...what I'm saying is this: for a person who is truly saved, who has truly had their heart renewed...it is their desire to live and walk with Christ always. It comes hand in hand with the assurance of salvation. It's like the showing of a persons deeds...their fruit. Works will not get us salvation, but they show we are already saved. Following the scriptures and walking that line will not get you salvation, but once we are saved, we desire to do what Jesus demanded of us...and we do it from joy, not necessity. The whole deal is this....once saved we follow Jesus and live for him in faithfulness....not because we have to, but because we get to...and therein lies the joy!

ps....you know it suddenly occurred to me that probably our resulting lives are not that different....we both live for Jesus....the difference is...and I feel it's rather huge...is that I do it from joy...not from concern I may loose what was given freely.

:)

It is good to do things with joy, and with faith in the Lord. Only you misunderstand me; if I did things out of concern for losing something, I would be dead set against what I'm telling you. If I seek to save my life, I will lose it. I do not say we are not 'eternally saved' because I think we should try harder to save our lives. I say we are not 'eternally saved' because that is what our Lord tells us; we have a race to run, a prize to attain. 'Eternal salvation' is a doctrine of Christendom, the doctrine of Christ is that of eternal life, which is a type of life, that we enter now. When we abide in Him, thus knowing him and having eternal life, we are safe.

We are to lose our lives to run after him and seek him.

A person that is 'truly saved'? I was on this bus, and it was going from one town to the next, but there were many stops on the way. To get where I need to go, I would have to stay on the bus until the end of the line when he asks everyone to come off. I decide to come off earlier. So I was never on the bus?

The idea that because one becomes born again he loses his free will and cannot fail is the equivalent of saying that indeed, since you did not get to the end of the bus line, you never even boarded the bus.

The Bible doesn't depict salvation as a 'done deal', you got it just believe it! It depicts it as a race! Grace is received as a gift if we repent, but for a purpose, that we would run the race!

If, indeed, grace is simply 'unmerited favor', then tell me this, can 'unmerited favor' labor?

The power of God within us labors, as Paul says it did within him, so that we would have both the will and the doing of what pleases God. If grace is unmerited favor, and that favor is eternal, then God would indeed be partial.

 

[Episkopos]

:)

It is good to do things with joy, and with faith in the Lord. Only you misunderstand me; if I did things out of concern for losing something, I would be dead set against what I'm telling you. If I seek to save my life, I will lose it. I do not say we are not 'eternally saved' because I think we should try harder to save our lives. I say we are not 'eternally saved' because that is what our Lord tells us; we have a race to run, a prize to attain. 'Eternal salvation' is a doctrine of Christendom, the doctrine of Christ is that of eternal life, which is a type of life, that we enter now. When we abide in Him, thus knowing him and having eternal life, we are safe.

We are to lose our lives to run after him and seek him.

A person that is 'truly saved'? I was on this bus, and it was going from one town to the next, but there were many stops on the way. To get where I need to go, I would have to stay on the bus until the end of the line when he asks everyone to come off. I decide to come off earlier. So I was never on the bus?

The idea that because one becomes born again he loses his free will and cannot fail is the equivalent of saying that indeed, since you did not get to the end of the bus line, you never even boarded the bus.

The Bible doesn't depict salvation as a 'done deal', you got it just believe it! It depicts it as a race! Grace is received as a gift if we repent, but for a purpose, that we would run the race!

If, indeed, grace is simply 'unmerited favor', then tell me this, can 'unmerited favor' labor?

The power of God within us labors, as Paul says it did within him, so that we would have both the will and the doing of what pleases God. If grace is unmerited favor, and that favor is eternal, then God would indeed be partial.

Very good! :)

 

[Rach1370]

:)

It is good to do things with joy, and with faith in the Lord. Only you misunderstand me; if I did things out of concern for losing something, I would be dead set against what I'm telling you. If I seek to save my life, I will lose it. I do not say we are not 'eternally saved' because I think we should try harder to save our lives. I say we are not 'eternally saved' because that is what our Lord tells us; we have a race to run, a prize to attain. 'Eternal salvation' is a doctrine of Christendom, the doctrine of Christ is that of eternal life, which is a type of life, that we enter now. When we abide in Him, thus knowing him and having eternal life, we are safe.

We are to lose our lives to run after him and seek him.

A person that is 'truly saved'? I was on this bus, and it was going from one town to the next, but there were many stops on the way. To get where I need to go, I would have to stay on the bus until the end of the line when he asks everyone to come off. I decide to come off earlier. So I was never on the bus?

The idea that because one becomes born again he loses his free will and cannot fail is the equivalent of saying that indeed, since you did not get to the end of the bus line, you never even boarded the bus.

The Bible doesn't depict salvation as a 'done deal', you got it just believe it! It depicts it as a race! Grace is received as a gift if we repent, but for a purpose, that we would run the race!

If, indeed, grace is simply 'unmerited favor', then tell me this, can 'unmerited favor' labor?

The power of God within us labors, as Paul says it did within him, so that we would have both the will and the doing of what pleases God. If grace is unmerited favor, and that favor is eternal, then God would indeed be partial.

I still disagree! But I am enjoying discussing this with you, you obviously think things through well and reason logically, so ta!
Here's my deal. Yes, we are to 'run the race' and 'strive to become righteous' and 'press on'....but to what, for what? What, as Christians, should we long to hear at the end, when our lives finally bring us face to face with Jesus? "Well done, good and faithful servant...enter into the joy of your Master"
Once saved, our lives and every motivation for every deed, thought and action we do; comes from love and gratitude. To make those actions and motivations about continued assurance makes very light of what Jesus did on the cross.
The bus analogy...it's good....but I see it differently. Let's just say a person decides to jog beside the bus...all the way (let's just forget for the sake of argument that they couldn't possibly keep up!). If they did that they could honestly say that they followed the same route...that they saw everything the people on the bus did...that they stopped at the same stops...etc. The difference is...at some point they will flag and fall away, because they were striving to complete that journey on their own steam. Those on the bus are riding the grace...they are not under their own steam, but that of the Holy Spirit...and that's why they make it to the end and the ones off the bus don't. But up until the point that the runner falls away, he would be able to answer and swear to the same answers as those on the bus....there was just one very significant difference....he was never on it in the first place...he never had access to the very thing that would see him to the end...the Holy Spirit.
But despite whether you think that Salvation once received can be lost by a person deliberately turning away, we must not doubt that what is given us from Jesus is complete.

Jesus sacrifice was total, perfect and complete. He did not give us grace as a tool for us to achieve our own salvation. It's not a free gift then....what if a wife gives her husband a lawn mower...go out and do the work yourself....or is the greater gift for the husband to come home and find that the gift itself was a mown yard? We cannot lessen Jesus' gift. We cannot imagine we have what we need to achieve, or uphold our own salvation. The Bible repeatedly tells us the we cannot. The verses below show two things....the completeness of Jesus' work on the cross, and the assurance we can have in that gift of grace:

[27] He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.(Hebrews 7:27 ESV)

[9] then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. [10] And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ( Hebrews 10:9-10 ESV)

[11] And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, [12] so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. (Hebrews 6:11-12 ESV)

[By Faith]
[11:1] Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
(Hebrews 11:1 ESV)

[31] because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
(Acts 17:31 ESV)

[2] that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery, which is Christ,
(Colossians 2:2 ESV)

We are to have full assurance...in Christ...who has triumphed once and for all.
Here's the thing. We are told repeatedly that a true Christian must live to bear good fruit, that we must strive to righteousness, to become more Christ like. But we are also told that man alone, is helpless to do such good things:

[26] And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?” [27] Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.” (Mark 10:26-27 ESV)

When we are born again we are given the Holy Spirit and that Spirit remains with us, enabling us to live the life we need to, that we now desire to because of our new hearts.

I could go on...for quite a while to be honest! I feel passionately about this....we cannot take away from the work of the cross, from the assurance we now have because he rose. Can't you see...the very reason we are even capable of living a life that makes us more Christ like, is because we already have our salvation. First Jesus gives us justification, then he helps us walk our sanctification and that leads to our ultimate glorification. Everything is from him! Yes, we have to consciously pick up the Bible, but only through the Spirit do we embrace what it says. Yes we have to consciously call our hurting friend, but it is only through the Spirit that we know what to say. Yes we have to consciously decide to attend church, but it is the Spirit amongst us that allows us to truly glorify and praise Jesus! We do all this, because of salvation...not to uphold it. The bible goes on and on about us striving, about us doing good things, about everything we do giving glory to him....but it also tells us that the only way we can do this, is by the new heart that he gives us when he saves us...once for all!