Okay, I really feel you are missing such a joyful and freeing fact of what Christ has done, I'm gonna keep going here! I'm not frustrated or intent on proving myself right in this....I'm truly desiring to show you what scripture says about all this...so, I'm hoping you aren't getting cranky that I won't drop this...I know some get frustrated at back and forths like this!
No no no. I don't mean that grace is a way of securing your salvation. :)
Grace is power that we may walk like him. Salvation IS Christ, and it is only in him that we have it and are safe. If we don't abide, we are lost. We can neither earn, sercure, or own salvation. Christ Jesus is not for sale, and if he IS salvation, that means you can't own salvation. You can only follow it.
Granted, we cannot walk like Christ without Him, but that is my very point. I'll try and make this as succinct as possible:
Jesus tells us to listen to Him:
[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. (John 5:24 ESV)
He tells us to believe in Him:
[40] For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
(John 6:40 ESV)
[13] In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, [14] who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14 ESV)
So, by hearing and believing in Him we have eternal life...we have a guarantee of it...sure we have to wait for it...our glorification will come when we stand before Christ at the end of the age...but still, we have that promise and we know God is faithful.
It also says that in believing we are sealed with the Holy Spirit...that His presence in our lives marks our guarantee. We are also told that it is this Spirit...His power and work within our lives, that enables us to live a life pleasing to God:
[13] For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [14] For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
(Romans 8:13-14 ESV)
Indeed, without the Spirit's work in our life, any hope of living a godly life is out the window:
[18] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. (Romans 7:18 ESV)
We are also told, that once we believe in Jesus, once we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit and become a child of God, restored to righteousness in His sight by Christ's blood, that we will never be forsaken:
[7] But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. [8] We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; [9] persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; (2 Corinthians 4:7-9 ESV)
[5] Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” (Hebrews 13:5 ESV)
[16] And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, [17] even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. (John 14:16-17 ESV)
And as far as sanctification goes...us living a righteous and holy life...through the power of the Holy Spirit, for the glory of God's name...the fruit we bare is
by the Holy Spirit,
for the glory of God and
under the assurance of salvation through Christ.
[22] But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. [23] For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 6:22-23 ESV)
It's all about God, and the Trinity's role in saving history...not about us. Our purpose in life...especially in new life, is all about giving glory to God. Our good works are only achievable through God, and they are for God, not for us in any way...especially not for attaining and holding onto something to has already freely been given to us.
What you're telling me would amount to this Rach; because one time God touched someone, and that person called upon the Lord, then that person becomes God's favorite and cannot be lost. God has favorites? It is a dangerous thing to consider oneself to be God's favorite and special person. If we have received more, more is expected of us.
I'm not going to get into the debate of Calvinism vs Arminianism. But I will say this...I in no way, shape of form think that God elected me for salvation because I'm better or more worthy than anyone else. It simply is not so...it will never be so. If I am ever more 'godly' than anyone else, it will only be through the Holy Spirit working in me...by myself, my strivings are 'filthy rags' in God's sight, and I am very aware of that.
As far as favourites go...I don't know, but we are told this:
[28] And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. [29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30 ESV)
[11] though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—[12] she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” [13] As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! [15] For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” [20] But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
[21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? [22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— (Romans 9:11-20; Romans 9:21-23 ESV)
Does God have favourites? I don't know. But what the Bible teaches is this: not a single one was worthy, but God has chosen a few. And that was His divine right. Even should He have favourites, it is shameful to think we have any right to comment on His soverign workings and choice. Remember, it's not about us, or our rights. Everything God does, every choice He makes, every person He brings to Him, is about His glory, about the praise of His glorious grace.
The whole nation of Israel, in faith, partook of the lamb and puts it's blood on the posts of their house, and because of this, they were saved and delivered out of Egypt! Wonderful! How many, of a whole nation, made it into the promised land? 2. Joshua and Caleb! The others, died in the wilderness because of unbelief.
And yet in Romans 4:9 we are told that Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness
before his actions of obedience. God chose him, he believed and was accedited righteousness in that faith, and then he obeyed God and circumcised himself. Likewise with us, we have faith and recieve salvation, and that salvation leads to a life of obedience.
Likewise, one who has been born again has, by faith, been washed in the blood of Christ, this world no longer has to hold any power over him! Wonderful! If he does not move in faith though, and fails his test in the wilderness, he will not enter the promised land either.
Ok, here is that thought that we discussed by a person being 'on the bus' as opposed to 'running next to the bus'. You think that a person who was genuinely saved can at any point tear himself away from Jesus, or perhaps, just do that by sheer sinfulness and lack of regard for the demands of Christ. I disagree. I think anyone who 'jumps off the bus' was never on it in the first place.
Here's the thing...people are not dumb...well, okay, some are...but generally they can grasp simple concepts. Like this...the world is bad, their life sucks, something needs to make it better. Some turn to sex, or sport or money, or a billion other things. Many turn to religion. Many turn to Christianity. They are told the gospel, and intellectually, they get it! Follow Jesus, believe in Jesus, and they get a free ticket! It sounds awesome! So they go to church, they read their bible until they can quote verses and keep up with any conversation at church, they visit sick people and run the local youth group. They're following Jesus! They know their stuff! But it's all false! Jesus tells us that
only God can open a person's heart, mind and soul to really
hear the gospel, to really
get it...to recieve the Holy Spirit.
[31] So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, (John 8:31 ESV)
"Truly my disciples"...that implies that some who claim to be disciples are not genuine. Time will eventually tell the truth...do people continue to abide in Jesus? In his word, in his demands? People who jump off the bus...they were never truly there in the first place...they were just running along side.
[4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. [5] I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. [6] If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. (John 15:4-6 ESV)
Jesus is saying here that if we are to bear fruit, we must be with him...he must be with us...abide IN me and He IN us. To do any of this (as discussed above) we must have God working in us, and if we have that, we have salvation and the assurance that he will never leave us.
Jesus is also saying here that any branch that doesn't bear fruit will whither and be cut off and burned. But following from what he just said, we can see that if they are not bearing fruit, the person was never abiding in Jesus in the first place. He may have been part of the church, but Jesus was never within them, changing them and leading to producing fruit.
God has not changed; he has not gone from being the God of the OT who required faithfulness to being the God of the NT who picks favorites out of the group to who he will have mercy NO MATTER WHAT (once converted).
I think the Bible clearly teaches that those who are truly saved...those who truly abide with Jesus, will change. We're not perfect...it takes time, patience, stumbling, hard lessons and tears...but ultimately we strive for God and move forward. "Christians" who do not move forward...they have never had their heart renewed and changed. Those who have truly met Christ...He becomes our passion...the very centre of our universe and we can do no other than to live for Him in our stilted, awkward ways! That is what the process of sanctification is all about...a life long journey to love Him better and better!
To be honest, I remain perplexed as to how people can somehow believe in assurance of salvation in the face of this verse:
[sup]22[/sup]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
There is not much of a solution other than ignoring it if we want to think somehow we can't be cut off.
Again, I believe that the Bible clearly teaches towards assurance of salvation...I remain perplexed at how some cannot see that! What do we have faith in if not eternal life? How often does it say that having faith in Jesus gives us eternal life??? And in this light, we must see all these ^^^^ verses to mean that those who claim Jesus but clearly have not met him, will in time be sifted away from true believers...time will tell that they loved the idea, but not the man.
[9] You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
(Romans 8:9 ESV)
Some call 'church' there home, and 'Christianity' their religion. Some love doing righteous deeds and serving others, some sing to Jesus and clap their hands. But if they do not have the Spirit, they are not truly Christians, and one day, when a crisis hits, or sin trips them up...they will not have the only thing that allows us to get back on our feet....the Spirit of God working within us.
PS...sorry for the length...yes, that was me being succint!!
