Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?

[JunChosen]

Do we then first need to figure out who are his sheep before we tell them the Good News?.....because if they are not one of his sheep and we do tell them the Good News we are in effect lying to them.

What a question to ask! You know full well that we can't know who is and who is not are His sheep.

But our task is to present the Gospel to the world as we are directed by Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Davy]

Just being a believer is not equivalent to being saved, so, the logic of the original post is flawed.

The original post is... about how a 'believer' on Jesus Christ that intentionally falls away from their Faith on Jesus Christ, can... lose their Salvation. That Hebrews 6 Scripture easily reveals that. But if you have a problem with reading comprehension in that Scripture, then I suggest you actually read what I showed in the original post I wrote, instead of just casting idiotic slander against it.

 

[Davy]

They do so in error showing their lack of scriptural understanding

So the malefactor crucified with Jesus and believed on Jesus, wasn't actually saved when Jesus said he would be with Him in Paradise that day? I'd rather believe The Bible as written instead of someone like you that has come here to distort The Bible.

 

[Davy]

You made a good case for the forgiveness of our sins. But forgiveness of sins is only one of three major aspects of salvation.

Salvation:

1. Pardon -- solves the punishment for sin.
2. Sanctification -- solves the death-producing behavior of sin
3. Transformation -- victory over death itself.

Our salvation isn't realized until after we have gone through all three aspects of salvation. Thus, we aren't "once saved" until the Last Trumpet.

Sounds like men's Catholic traditions which often likes to come between Christ and the believer.

Those in Christ Jesus don't need no flesh-priest as mediator. We already have one Mediator to The Father for us, Jesus Christ.

Jesus and His Apostles promised The Holy Spirit to those who confess the Faith and are baptized. And thus Apostle Paul claimed those who are of such are "sealed" to the end. (Acts 2:38; Eph.4:30; Eph.1:13; 2 Cor.1:21-22).

But men's traditions of the Catholic system say NO, that one MUST go through them to be 'saved'! The Protestant rebellion of the 15th-16th centuries pretty much settled that argument. The New Testament actually settled it long before that, it's just that certain men crept in unawares that took over the Catholic system don't rely on what The New Testament Scriptures say. They place themselves in between Christ Jesus and the believer.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Sounds like men's Catholic traditions which often likes to come between Christ and the believer.

What do you mean?

Those in Christ Jesus don't need no flesh-priest as mediator.

Did I say anything about that? I don't think I did.

We already have one Mediator to The Father for us, Jesus Christ.

Agreed.

Jesus and His Apostles promised The Holy Spirit to those who confess the Faith and are baptized. And thus Apostle Paul claimed those who are of such are "sealed" to the end. (Acts 2:38; Eph.4:30; Eph.1:13; 2 Cor.1:21-22).

Okay.

But men's traditions of the Catholic system say NO, that one MUST go through them to be 'saved'! The Protestant rebellion of the 15th-16th centuries pretty much settled that argument. The New Testament actually settled it long before that, it's just that certain men crept in unawares that took over the Catholic system don't rely on what The New Testament Scriptures say. They place themselves in between Christ Jesus and the believer.

Did I do that? I don't think I did.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I wonder if anyone has looked at who owns the salvation.

1. The salvation was not earned by the person.
2. It was not a reward for good works.
3. It was paid for by God himself.

so i wonder if it is a misnomer to ask if one can lose their own salvation. Should we not actually ask if we can lose GOD”S salvation (since it was bought and paid for by him)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You made a good case for the forgiveness of our sins. But forgiveness of sins is only one of three major aspects of salvation.

Salvation:

1. Pardon -- solves the punishment for sin.
2. Sanctification -- solves the death-producing behavior of sin
3. Transformation -- victory over death itself.

Our salvation isn't realized until after we have gone through all three aspects of salvation. Thus, we aren't "once saved" until the Last Trumpet.

I agree there are three aspects of salvation.

we have been saved from the penalty of sin (justification)

We are being saved from the power of sin (sanctification)

we will be saved from the ability to sin (glorification)

I also agree that our final salvation will not be realized until the day of redemption. However, we have been given the spirit as a pledge of our salvation until that day. And our first salvation (justification) the one that really matters, is already set in stone..

By one sacrifice he has perfected FOREVER (justification) those who are being sanctified.

God does all three

 

[Behold]

so i wonder if it is a misnomer to ask if one can lose their own salvation. Should we not actually ask if we can lose GOD”S salvation (since it was bought and paid for by him)

Being born again is the only proof of Salvation.

This is a Birth in the Spirit, whereby God "who is A Spirit" births the BELIEVER, into Himself.

This is to become a "new Creation" in Christ".

The only way that GOD could perform this, is if the sin issue that separates all from God, is fully resolved, once and for all.
And that is what Jesus has accomplished as the "one time Eternal Sacrifice for sin"..

Reader, Jesus does not have to die again on the Cross as His sacrifice is an eternal sacrifice for all who believe and are born again.

This is why 2 Corinthians 5:19 explains that God does not charge sin to the born again, ever again.

Why?
Its Because ....""""God hath made Jesus to be SIN...for us""".

This is what Jesus is saying from the Cross when He told you..."IT...is finished".

"IT" is your Salvation, as HE IS "IT".

Do you have Jesus in you?
Then you are going to Heaven.
How do you know? Its because you are already there..>>"seated in Heavenly places IN CHRIST".., if you are born again, and not just water baptized and religious.

Reader, Jesus told you..,. '''' I AM THE... Resurrection".... and Jesus is "Christ in YOU< the Hope of Glory" (Glory is Heaven).
So, The Holy ONE who is Himself Eternal Life and THE Resurrection, is IN YOU, and that is why you will be Raptured or Resurrected.

THATS a FACT.
Count on it.
BELIEVE IT

That means that Jesus has our sin, took our sin, became our sin.... and died for it. And this satisfied God's Judgment against your sin and mine.
Reader, when Jesus rose from the dead, your sin didnt come with Him.
Its GONE....

Listen,
for God to judge a believer for sin, after Jesus has been judge for all your sin, 2000 yrs ago, is not going to happen.
God has already poured out His wrath against sin on His Son, and this is our assurance. This is our lively Hope and Truth.

GOD has purchased you for eternity, with the Blood of Jesus.
This is why Paul told us... that the born again are "bought with a PRICE", and that Price is the Sacrifice of Jesus, and it can't fail you.

Now BELIEVE IT.. and enjoy your Salvation.
Rest in God's Grace.

 

[Davy]

What do you mean?

The Catholic system uses a priest system like the Levitical priesthood, which Christ nailed to His cross.

1 Tim 2:5-6
5 For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
KJV

An older friend of mine who knew his death was near, lived in a city that was pretty much influenced by the Catholic Church. Its influence was heavy in the city politics, schools, etc. He also sent his children to a private Catholic school. Yet he was raised in the primarily Protestant South until high school, and was baptized in a Southern Protestant Church as a junior. In his late years he came to me and told me that he needed 'absolution'.

I told him to pray to our Heavenly Father in Christ Jesus' name, and talk to Him just like you would a loving Father. I suppose he thought I was some kind of Catholic priest in hiding or something, and that I could give him 'absolution'. How could a system do that to a believer? It's because the Catholic system 'priesthood' tradition can come in between The Mediator and the believer, when that should never happen. And he would have never thought he needed a flesh priest if that was not true about the Catholic system.

Did I say anything about that? I don't think I did.

You didn't have to. I covered that point because it is true.

Agreed.

Okay.

Did I do that? I don't think I did.

Did you point to Catholic doctrine?? Yeah, you did...

You said:
"Salvation:

1. Pardon -- solves the punishment for sin.
2. Sanctification -- solves the death-producing behavior of sin
3. Transformation -- victory over death itself."

The following Scripture reveals that "sanctification" happens by The Holy Spirit through FAITH on the Blood of Jesus Christ. It is NOT something that we work and have to achieve, like Catholic doctrine wrongly teaches...

Acts 26:18
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in Me.
KJV

2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
KJV

1 Peter 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
KJV

Christ's forgiveness of our sins that are past also happens at that very moment too when we confess Him as our Saviour and are baptized.

The idea of transformation is simply about our growing in Christ as we learn to walk in The Spirit. It immediately begins at our belief on Christ and baptism also. So no one can say it only happens after we have 'works' in Christ Jesus. The process instead starts by The Holy Spirit when we convert to Jesus Christ, as per His promise.

And let's put the New Testament idea of "sanctification" back... into the Bible perspective, instead of the traditions of men: that "sanctification" per New Testament Scripture is to our 'spirit/soul', NOT to our flesh body. Our flesh body is not what is saved by Lord Jesus' Blood shed upon His cross. So anyone who tries to teach that "sanctification" means learning to stop sinning in the flesh, is teaching a doctrine of men, because as long as we are in the flesh, we will slip up at times and still sin. Even the pope still commits sin today. It's like Apostle Paul said in Romans 6:7, "For he that is dead is freed from sin."

 

[CadyandZoe]

I wonder if anyone has looked at who owns the salvation.

1. The salvation was not earned by the person.
2. It was not a reward for good works.
3. It was paid for by God himself.

so i wonder if it is a misnomer to ask if one can lose their own salvation. Should we not actually ask if we can lose GOD”S salvation (since it was bought and paid for by him)

Insightful, in my humble opinion.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I agree there are three aspects of salvation.

we have been saved from the penalty of sin (justification)

We are being saved from the power of sin (sanctification)

we will be saved from the ability to sin (glorification)

I also agree that our final salvation will not be realized until the day of redemption. However, we have been given the spirit as a pledge of our salvation until that day. And our first salvation (justification) the one that really matters, is already set in stone..

By one sacrifice he has perfected FOREVER (justification) those who are being sanctified.

God does all three

Well said. Thanks.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Catholic system uses a priest system like the Levitical priesthood, which Christ nailed to His cross.

What has that got to do with what I said? Nothing at all.

You didn't have to. I covered that point because it is true.

I need some clarification. Either you responded to something I said, or you didn't respond to something I said. You told me something I said sounded like "man's catholic tradition." I asked you to flesh that out. What in particular sounded Catholic.

Did you point to Catholic doctrine?? Yeah, you did...

You said:
"Salvation:

1. Pardon -- solves the punishment for sin.
2. Sanctification -- solves the death-producing behavior of sin
3. Transformation -- victory over death itself."

If you think this points to Catholic Doctrine then either I miscommunicated or you misunderstood. Sometimes I need to figure out which. My summary doesn't come from Catholicism. And my summary doesn't include anything about a human priest. My guess is that you read into my statement ideas that I didn't intend to convey.

The following Scripture reveals that "sanctification" happens by The Holy Spirit through FAITH on the Blood of Jesus Christ. It is NOT something that we work and have to achieve, like Catholic doctrine wrongly teaches...

I agree that Sanctification happens by the Holy Spirit. I would never say otherwise.

The idea of transformation is simply about our growing in Christ as we learn to walk in The Spirit.

Okay, I can agree with that. But that's NOT what I meant by transformation. I was talking about glorification, and since people need help understanding the significance or meaning of the term glorification, then I used another word that I hoped people would understand. What I have in mind comes from 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:51-56
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I summarized the passage above this way:

• Transformation -- victory over death itself."

Paul indicates that we will undergo a change that will result in immortality and victory over death. In my view, this is the moment when our salvation is realized.

And let's put the New Testament idea of "sanctification" back... into the Bible perspective, instead of the traditions of men: that "sanctification" per New Testament Scripture is to our 'spirit/soul', NOT to our flesh body. Our flesh body is not what is saved by Lord Jesus' Blood shed upon His cross. So anyone who tries to teach that "sanctification" means learning to stop sinning in the flesh, is teaching a doctrine of men, because as long as we are in the flesh, we will slip up at times and still sin. Even the pope still commits sin today. It's like Apostle Paul said in Romans 6:7, "For he that is dead is freed from sin."

We are discussing a matter of degree. Sanctification involves reducing wicked behavior and embracing righteousness. Paul describes an aspect of our sanctification in Romans 6. In this text, Paul suggests that it is possible to have control over our bodies and not let sin rule over them. Although he doesn't imply that we become sinless, he believes that with the help of the Holy Spirit, we can offer our bodies to righteousness and serve it. In my summary I said,

• Sanctification -- solves the death-producing behavior of sin

In the New Testament, death is not simply the loss of biological life. Instead, it is the pain and suffering that we cause others when we sin against them. If we define "life" as happiness, fulfillment, well-being, and flourishing, then "death" is the absence of these things. When we sin against someone, we immediately take away their happiness and well-being, and in the long run, we can also prevent them from achieving fulfillment and flourishing. The more I devote myself to doing what is right, the less I will cause others to experience death.

 

[DJT_47]

So the malefactor crucified with Jesus and believed on Jesus, wasn't actually saved when Jesus said he would be with Him in Paradise that day? I'd rather believe The Bible as written instead of someone like you that has come here to distort The Bible.

You're conflicting dispensations. When Jesus was alive, the OT laws were in effect not the new which ushered in the NT criteria; belief and faith, confession of belief, repentance, and baptism, all required for salvation.

The thief, based on his belief and faith was forgiven and saved by the Lord, hus forgiveness of sins no different than others sins whom Jesus forgave such as the adulterous woman.

 

[Davy]

What has that got to do with what I said? Nothing at all.

I need some clarification. Either you responded to something I said, or you didn't respond to something I said. You told me something I said sounded like "man's catholic tradition." I asked you to flesh that out. What in particular sounded Catholic.

The Catholic system has certain requirements for Christ's Salvation, one of them is that one must... belong to the Catholic Church specifically to go to Heaven. If you don't know about those things, you might look into it.

If you think this points to Catholic Doctrine then either I miscommunicated or you misunderstood. Sometimes I need to figure out which. My summary doesn't come from Catholicism. And my summary doesn't include anything about a human priest. My guess is that you read into my statement ideas that I didn't intend to convey.

I agree that Sanctification happens by the Holy Spirit. I would never say otherwise.


Okay, I can agree with that. But that's NOT what I meant by transformation. I was talking about glorification, and since people need help understanding the significance or meaning of the term glorification, then I used another word that I hoped people would understand. What I have in mind comes from 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:51-56
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I summarized the passage above this way:

• Transformation -- victory over death itself."

Paul indicates that we will undergo a change that will result in immortality and victory over death. In my view, this is the moment when our salvation is realized.

That's not really what the idea of Biblical transformation is about. Per God's Word it is about the idea of growing in Christ while still in the flesh.

We are discussing a matter of degree. Sanctification involves reducing wicked behavior and embracing righteousness. Paul describes an aspect of our sanctification in Romans 6. In this text, Paul suggests that it is possible to have control over our bodies and not let sin rule over them. Although he doesn't imply that we become sinless, he believes that with the help of the Holy Spirit, we can offer our bodies to righteousness and serve it. In my summary I said,

• Sanctification -- solves the death-producing behavior of sin

In the New Testament, death is not simply the loss of biological life. Instead, it is the pain and suffering that we cause others when we sin against them. If we define "life" as happiness, fulfillment, well-being, and flourishing, then "death" is the absence of these things. When we sin against someone, we immediately take away their happiness and well-being, and in the long run, we can also prevent them from achieving fulfillment and flourishing. The more I devote myself to doing what is right, the less I will cause others to experience death.

Per the Catholic system, the believer even though already having been baptized, but sins afterwards, must confess their sins to a flesh 'Catholic' priest to get back into a 'state of grace', otherwise they will go to hell.

The Catholic system treats 'justification' only starting with faith on Christ and baptism, but must be completed through Catholic sacraments. Protestant system instead points that our justification and sanctification only comes from Christ's righteous, and thus we are saved by Faith, not our works, which is actually what Apostle Paul taught.

What Does the Roman Catholic Church Believe About Justification?

The gospel of Jesus Christ is always at risk of distortion. It became distorted in the centuries leading up to the Protestant Reformation of the sixteenth centu

www.ligonier.org

 

[Davy]

You're conflicting dispensations. When Jesus was alive, the OT laws were in effect not the new which ushered in the NT criteria; belief and faith, confession of belief, repentance, and baptism, all required for salvation.

The thief, based on his belief and faith was forgiven and saved by the Lord, hus forgiveness of sins no different than others sins whom Jesus forgave such as the adulterous woman.

Nah... that is MEN's attempted requirements to be saved coming in between Christ and the believing malefactor. One of the easiest proofs of that is with the story of Lazarus and the rich man of Luke 16 that Jesus gave, where Abraham and Lazarus were on the saved side in Paradise, and the rich man was taken to hell on the other side. So if you think being carried to hell where the rich man was taken to, vs. where Lazarus was taken to, that that does not show one is saved and the other is not, then I feel sorry for you.

 

[DJT_47]

Nah... that is MEN's attempted requirements to be saved coming in between Christ and the believing malefactor. One of the easiest proofs of that is with the story of Lazarus and the rich man of Luke 16 that Jesus gave, where Abraham and Lazarus were on the saved side in Paradise, and the rich man was taken to hell on the other side. So if you think being carried to hell where the rich man was taken to, vs. where Lazarus was taken to, that that does not show one is saved and the other is not, then I feel sorry for you.

Luke 16 is a parable and not one that relates to salvation but rather one that cautions about trusting in your wealth and the things of this world and ignoring God and his word. And further there's nothing stated about Lazarus other than he was a beggar: no belief, no faith exhibited, nothing, just a poor beggar. Are you suggesting that simply being poor and not rich is all that's necessary to be saved? Belief and trust in that parable as your guide to salvation is for sure questionable and in error and demonstrates your lack of scriptural understanding.

 

[Davy]

Luke 16 is a parable and not one that relates to salvation... .

That statement right there is enough for me to know you don't really understand what Jesus was showing in that Luke 16 chapter. Jesus would not make up fibs about that process that at flesh death, one's spirit is taken either to one side or the other in Paradise. Even as a parable, the objects are still real.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV


1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

I'm well aware of the old Jewish tradition of 'asleep in the ground', which is an Old Testament era tradition. The New Testament Scriptures reveal that we do NOT literally 'sleep' in the casket when our flesh dies. Our spirit with soul continues on to God, with awareness.

Regarding this story in Luke 16 then, I notice many Jews, or Jewish tradition influenced, try to make it into a 'parable', when it could have just as easily been a real event that happened, and Jesus was revealing it.

 

[DJT_47]

That statement right there is enough for me to know you don't really understand what Jesus was showing in that Luke 16 chapter. Jesus would not make up fibs about that process that at flesh death, one's spirit is taken either to one side or the other in Paradise. Even as a parable, the objects are still real.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV


1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

I'm well aware of the old Jewish tradition of 'asleep in the ground', which is an Old Testament era tradition. The New Testament Scriptures reveal that we do NOT literally 'sleep' in the casket when our flesh dies. Our spirit with soul continues on to God, with awareness.

Regarding this story in Luke 16 then, I notice many Jews, or Jewish tradition influenced, try to make it into a 'parable', when it could have just as easily been a real event that happened, and Jesus was revealing it.

You didn't address what I said or the parable in Luke and it's meaning. You also assumed things which I did not say or infer. And does "spirits in prison" mean they were in paradise? And yes, at death we depart the body which returns to the earth, the spirit returns to God, and the soul lives on, in hell or paradise with the Lord if you're a Christian.

And the scripture being discussed in Luke 16 IS a parable and Luke 16 is continuation of Luke 15. And who was his audience? Not just his disciples, but "publicans and sinners", and he only spoke in parables to those that followed after him, the crowds and others as mentioned. So yes because of his audience, consisting of not just his disciples, he spoke only in parables as noted elsewhere in scripture (Matthew 13:10).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Catholic system has certain requirements for Christ's Salvation, one of them is that one must... belong to the Catholic Church specifically to go to Heaven. If you don't know about those things, you might look into it.

This is not true. They believe all churches have a means of salvation. The Catholic Church just has the direct root, or most means or something like that (don’t quote me, look it up)

 

[DJT_47]

This is not true. They believe all churches have a means of salvation. The Catholic Church just has the direct root, or most means or something like that (don’t quote me, look it up)

There is ONE church, the Lord's church of the bible, and that ain't the catholic church: "all churches" implies that the myriad of thousands of denominations are equally viewed as acceptable to God which is totally illogical and makes no sense because they all teach and believe something different.