Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?

[Eternally Grateful]

What I believe the Scriptures tell us is that the message (Gospel) about Christ is freely OFFERED to ALL of humanity. Then through the Gospel proclaimed unto all people, the gift (salvation) of eternal life is GIVEN to whosoever believes through the power of the Holy Spirit. In this the problem of contradiction into the Word of God is eliminated.

Amen,

Just as Moses raised the serpent. So to must the son of man be lifted up. That whoever trusts God and believes in what the cross did. Will never perish, but live forever.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Thats why we are warned...
1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Being devoured is not having your sonship removed.

Your still a son.. You will just be a devoured son..

 

[CadyandZoe]

I have no need to be convinced that God's sovereignty doesn't make God out to be an ogre. It doesn't.

Well, that seems to be the basis of your objection.

The problem is not God's sovereignty; rather it is your lack of understanding about God's sovereignty, or rather your misunderstanding. That misunderstanding causes you to also have a misunderstanding of God's election.

Have I said anything that would lead you to believe that I misunderstand the concept? I don't think so. Perhaps you imagined it?

The topic of this thread, "Can a Believer Lose Their Salvation", and the assurance of salvation are really two different though related topics.

"Of course, but the answer to the first question cannot be resolved without the answer to the second question. Firstly, it is impossible to lose something that one does not possess. The topic question assumes that one has already been saved, when in fact, salvation only occurs at the final trumpet."

The question of whether a believer can lose their salvation is often framed in terms of ability or possibility. However, the more important question is whether they will lose their salvation. This is akin to the difference between saying "She can sing" and "She will sing." Similarly, it is more significant to ask whether "God will save" rather than whether "God can save."

And so, the bottom line question is the agency of salvation. Do we save ourselves or does God save us? Not only this, but we must also consider what it means to "be saved."

Suppose a man is working on the steel structure of a high-rise building. Can he jump? Yes, he can. However, the question is not whether he can jump, but whether he will jump. It's highly likely that he will lose his life if he jumps from such a height. But, what if the man accidentally falls from the building, and while he is still in mid-air, God miraculously gives him wings to fly around like a bird? In that case, the man will most likely not lose his life because he has a strong, God-given will to live. Therefore, he will not lose his life.

If God is the means of salvation, and salvation entails not only the will to live but also the ability to overcome all obstacles to life, then nothing prevents man from living.

I believe that the answer to the most important question lies in God's hands, not in man's. It is whether or not a person is saved by God. And if God is indeed saving someone, then will He fail to do so by any means necessary? My answer is no, God will not fail.

Strangely enough, your particular view on election actually makes assurance of salvation impossible. If indeed God's choice (election) of the saved is, as you would proclaim, based not on their personal character or merit, but out of his kindness and sovereign will, then there is no such personal character or merit that would indicate that choice (election) as you tried to show in your video. The reason is that if assurance of election is indicated by some personal character or merit as you suggested, there must be some line of demarcation in the actual amount or level of that personal character or merit that is required. Given that such a level is never given in God's word, you can never be certain what that level is for that assurance. That such a level is never given means that such a level doesn't exist. And that is because salvation is not determined by any personal character or merit. It is by grace through faith. Grace is God's part; faith is our part.

You misunderstand the logic of election. Personal character or merit is NOT the basis on which God saves. Rather, Personal Character is the product of his salvation. Paul, Peter, and James each argue that perseverance under trial is an indicator of our being saved by God, not the reason why we are being saved.

Peter declares that in 1 Peter 1:3-5 where he says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. "

What does Peter say there how we are being guarded by God's power? He says it is through faith. It is through faith that we are saved and it is through faith that we have assurance.

And in the first two verses of that chapter, Peter says, in contradiction to your view, that election is according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father.

You seemed to have missed Peter's connection between "God's power" and our faith. Since God is exerting his power, then the agency of our salvation is God himself, not the person of faith. The word "through" can indicate agency in some cases, but not always. In this case, the term "through" as in "guarded through faith" indicates the instrument God uses to guard us. Peter argues that God himself will guard our faith such that we will never fall away from the faith.

Also note Peter's opinion that salvation will be revealed in the last time.

 

[Wick Stick]

I agree with most of that. Salvation, like being forgiven, is a state of being.

Hello. Nice to meet you.

The unpardonable sin, I believe, is doing evil and claiming it is being done in God's name, i.e., by the direction of the Holy Spirit.

Can you explain to me how you came to that conclusion? While this is clearly an evil, I don't see this equated with the unpardonable sin, at least in the Bible.

For what it is worth, I think that is the same thing as the fourth of the ten commandments which says to not take (or carry) the name of God in vain. I don't think that has anything to do with cursing or such. Rather it is doing evil and claiming it is being done in God's name. (Note that is the only one of the ten commandments for which there is a punishment assigned.)

Yes! The commandment is against false prophecy.

Losing salvation or wandering off into dangerous territory does not happen because of any sin or sins.

Does salvation pertain to this life or the next one? If it's this life, sinning imperils a person. That's how we define what's wrong or not most of the time - the consequences. If it pertains only to the hereafter, that is different. But I think it has to do with both.

It happens when one no longer has the faith through which salvation was obtained in the first place. Such faith is not something that one has today and gives it up tomorrow; rather it is a commitment in life that is not readily or easily changed.

I think that's how I defined the unforgiveable sin in my last post, isn't it?

 

[JBO]

Well, that seems to be the basis of your objection.

Have I said anything that would lead you to believe that I misunderstand the concept? I don't think so. Perhaps you imagined it?

"Of course, but the answer to the first question cannot be resolved without the answer to the second question. Firstly, it is impossible to lose something that one does not possess. The topic question assumes that one has already been saved, when in fact, salvation only occurs at the final trumpet."

That of course, is the time when salvation is ultimately realized, but the scriptures often and repeatedly express salvation as a done deal.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

And so, the bottom line question is the agency of salvation. Do we save ourselves or does God save us? Not only this, but we must also consider what it means to "be saved."

In spite of the often-made accusation by the faith only types or the Calvinist types that those who disagree with them promote self-salvation, I don't know of anyone who believes that or promotes that.

Suppose a man is working on the steel structure of a high-rise building. Can he jump? Yes, he can. However, the question is not whether he can jump, but whether he will jump. It's highly likely that he will lose his life if he jumps from such a height. But, what if the man accidentally falls from the building, and while he is still in mid-air, God miraculously gives him wings to fly around like a bird? In that case, the man will most likely not lose his life because he has a strong, God-given will to live. Therefore, he will not lose his life.

It is not a God-given will to live that prevents lose of salvation; rather, it is in continuing to believe in God that keeps on saved. It is in coming to an unbelief that salvation may be lost.

If God is the means of salvation, and salvation entails not only the will to live but also the ability to overcome all obstacles to life, then nothing prevents man from living.

I believe that the answer to the most important question lies in God's hands, not in man's. It is whether or not a person is saved by God. And if God is indeed saving someone, then will He fail to do so by any means necessary? My answer is no, God will not fail.

Even in the event that one loses his salvation through unbelief, it is not God that has failed.

You misunderstand the logic of election. Personal character or merit is NOT the basis on which God saves. Rather, Personal Character is the product of his salvation. Paul, Peter, and James each argue that perseverance under trial is an indicator of our being saved by God, not the reason why we are being saved.

No, it is you who have misunderstood election. Of course, personal character or merit is not the basis on which God saves; rather personal faith is the means through which God saves, Grace is the basis upon which God saves (Eph 2:8).

You seemed to have missed Peter's connection between "God's power" and our faith. Since God is exerting his power, then the agency of our salvation is God himself, not the person of faith. The word "through" can indicate agency in some cases, but not always. In this case, the term "through" as in "guarded through faith" indicates the instrument God uses to guard us.

I am not sure what distinction you are trying to draw between agency and instrument. Those seem to be essentially one and the same. Even so, I do not regard our faith as either the agency nor the instrument through which God saves. Rather our faith is a condition imposed by God upon the one He saves. Faith of the individual is the determining factor on who God elects and saves.

Peter argues that God himself will guard our faith such that we will never fall away from the faith.

I don't believe Peter ever makes the statement that we will never fall away from the faith. He does say in verses 8 and 9 in 1 Peter, that "Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls"

 

[JBO]

Hello. Nice to meet you.

Oh, we have met before. I am the 4WD of a previous forum engagement. Nice to see you here though.

 

[Davy]

It can happen to anyone, who fight against the Holy Spirit in a determined resistance of truth and evidence, and claim it is the devils work, and we see some where going there....

Luke 11:15
But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

No, it cannot happen to just anyone, because thinking that would mean 'anybody' that does not believe on Jesus Christ can experience the gifts of The Holy Spirit and powers of the world to come.

It's easy to know that idea is false, because only a 'believer' on Jesus Christ can experience those things in Christ mentioned in Hebrews 6.

Maybe you ought to go back and re-read that Scripture in Hebrews 6 about those spiritual gifts.

 

[Wick Stick]

Oh, we have met before. I am the 4WD of a previous forum engagement. Nice to see you here though.

Haha why yes we have! Quite a bit.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That of course, is the time when salvation is ultimately realized, but the scriptures often and repeatedly express salvation as a done deal.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

I understand. However, Paul often uses the present perfect of the verb "have been saved" in order to acknowledge the fact that God never fails to keep a promise. Nevertheless, Paul often speaks about salvation as a future event. Salvation is something we hope for. Salvation is something we inherit. Salvation arrives at the Last Trump.

In order to avoid confusion during discussions about OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), I often use the present participle "being saved" to acknowledge that our salvation is a process of growth and sanctification, which will be completed in the future. The Bible emphasizes the importance of maturing and becoming more Christ-like, which is a continuous process under God's guidance.

In order to know whether someone has lost his salvation, one must wait until the final bell (so to speak.)

It is not a God-given will to live that prevents lose of salvation; rather, it is in continuing to believe in God that keeps on saved. It is in coming to an unbelief that salvation may be lost.

I think the New Testament teaches another point of view. Continuing to believe is not what keeps us saved. God's salvation is what keeps us believing. Coming to unbelief doesn't indicate a loss of salvation. Unbelief indicates that God is not saving that person. Any other perspective would require that our faith is meritorious and that we are NOT saved by grace.

In Romans 5, Paul argues that our confident expectation of salvation will not go unfulfilled. This is because God has poured out his Spirit within our hearts. So we can ask another question. Will a believer, who is being saved by God and has their heart filled with the Spirit of God, ever be disappointed that God didn't fulfill his promise? The answer is no. Not all believers have the Spirit of God, but Paul guarantees that if God has poured out his Spirit on someone, that individual will never fail to be saved by God.

Even in the event that one loses his salvation through unbelief, it is not God that has failed.

That event isn't possible because, as I say, salvation takes place in the future. No one can lose something he doesn't have.

I am not sure what distinction you are trying to draw between agency and instrument. Those seem to be essentially one and the same. Even so, I do not regard our faith as either the agency nor the instrument through which God saves. Rather our faith is a condition imposed by God upon the one He saves. Faith of the individual is the determining factor on who God elects and saves.

The question is whether faith is a condition of salvation or a symptom of salvation.

I don't believe Peter ever makes the statement that we will never fall away from the faith.

Not explicitly no. But he strongly implies it.

1 Peter 1:3-8

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.​

​

a living hope . . .
Peter envisions a community of people who have a strong and unwavering hope of being saved. He refers to this hope as "a living hope", which is made possible by the conditions that God has prepared in advance: being reborn and the resurrection of Christ.

to obtain an inheritance . . . reserved in heaven for you.
Peter eliminates all contingency. For individuals who have been reborn spiritually, salvation is not merely a possibility in the future that cannot be predicted with surety. Instead, for those who have undergone this spiritual transformation, salvation in the future is both inevitable and indestructible.

the proof of your faith . . .
We all desire to be certain that we will receive salvation as our inheritance. Salvation is only possible until faith is tested and proven. Once faith is proven, salvation becomes a reality. Peter emphasizes the significance of testing our faith, stating that it's more valuable than gold. For those who have been born again, have the Spirit poured into their heart, and have a proven faith, salvation is guaranteed.

 

[Taken]

What I believe the Scriptures tell us is that the message (Gospel) about Christ is freely OFFERED to ALL of humanity. Then through the Gospel proclaimed unto all people, the gift (salvation) of eternal life is GIVEN to whosoever believes through the power of the Holy Spirit. In this the problem of contradiction into the Word of God is eliminated.

* For the past 2,000 + Years Salvation IS a Gift (Offered BY and FROM God), to ALL of mankind.

* God Himself established HOW and WHEN any individual CAN RECEIVE His Gift.

Two MAJOR things are REQUIRED for an individual TO RECEIVE Gods Gift of Salvation.

* A bodily DEATH.

* True Heartful BELIEF IN the Heavenly Lord God Almighty, at the moment of Bodily DEATH.

ANY individual WHO is accomplished IN Heartful BELIEF and BODILY Death “IS” Once and Forever, a recipient OF Gods Gift of Salvation.

Without those TWO things; what a man does; ie. sitting in a church pew or governmental seat, or participant in rituals, or aiding another…or what a man calls himself; ie. Good, Nice, Christian, Jew, Doctor, Teacher, Parent…utterly irrelevant
*** “IF” he is LIVING VOID of a Heartful BELIEF IN the Heavenly Lord God Almighty.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Behold]

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Absolutely.

God through Christ has provided everything HE NEEDS, so that we can be accepted by HIM.... = forever.

Welcome to : Salvation

Its a eternal Gift.

 

[mailmandan]

Absolutely.

God through Christ has provided everything HE NEEDS, so that we can be accepted by HIM.... = forever.

Welcome to : Salvation

Its a eternal Gift.

Amen! Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.

 

[St. SteVen]

Its a eternal Gift.

--- PARODY ---

Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?

Indeed.

/

 

[rwb]

--- PARODY ---

Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?

Indeed.

/

So many grasp hold and believe salvation is as this parody mocks! That's why it is important to show the Bible tells us to go unto all the earth proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ to EVERYONE! That is to take the message of salvation to all the nations of the world. Through the message proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit whosoever shall believe possesses eternal life through Christ. We need to STOP mixing up the free gift (salvation) which is to partake of Christ with the message that tells us about Him.

 

[St. SteVen]

We need to STOP mixing up the free gift (salvation) which is to partake of Christ with the message that tells us about Him.

Could you expand on that?
I'm not sure what you are meaning to say. Thanks.

I am currently reading this fantastic book. Highly recommended.
Thought you might be interested based on your post.



/

 

[rwb]

Could you expand on that?
I'm not sure what you are meaning to say. Thanks.

I am currently reading this fantastic book. Highly recommended.
Thought you might be interested based on your post.

View attachment 38478

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How many times have you heard Christians say that salvation is a free gift that is only offered to fallen mankind? Don't know about you, but I've heard this from the first time I ever stepped into a Church. Is that really what Scripture tells us? I don't believe it is, even though I too once thought that I must reach out and accept the free gift of eternal life that Christ is offering me, before it is too late.

The Bible tells us that eternal life through Christ is not offered but given to whosoever believes. What's the difference? The difference is that if eternal life through salvation is only offered to fallen mankind, that means there is something fallen mankind must do to be saved. They must have faith in Christ! But when we show that eternal life through Christ is NOT offered to fallen mankind, but is given to all who believe through the power of His Word and Spirit, then all the work for obtaining eternal life through Christ is of God, and not according to the will of fallen man. While it is true that the gift of eternal life through Christ is a free gift to man, I don't believe the Bible says His free gift of eternal life is only offered for man to decide if they will believe or not. That makes eternal life through Christ dependent upon the good will of fallen mankind, but apart from Christ fallen mankind is without ability to freely choose Christ for life. We have no ability to turn to Christ in repentance, believing until His Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Spirit changes our spiritually dead hearts and minds, making us willing to turn to Christ for everlasting life.

John 1:12-13 (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[St. SteVen]

How many times have you heard Christians say that salvation is a free gift that is only offered to fallen mankind?

Great post, thanks.
You may be interested in these six forum topics and the writing of J. Preston Eby.

"By One Man..." - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby​

The Will of Man - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby​

The Shepherd Seeks the Sheep - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby​

"I will draw all men unto me." - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby​

The Sinner Must Decide? - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby​

Man is NOT a free moral agent - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby​

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[rwb]

Great post, thanks.
You may be interested in these six forum topics and the writing of J. Preston Eby.

"By One Man..." - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby​

The Will of Man - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby​

The Shepherd Seeks the Sheep - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby​

"I will draw all men unto me." - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby​

The Sinner Must Decide? - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby​

Man is NOT a free moral agent - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby​

/

Thanks!

 

[DJT_47]

Just being a believer is not equivalent to being saved, so, the logic of the original post is flawed.

 

[Hobie]

Just being a believer is not equivalent to being saved, so, the logic of the original post is flawed.

Well, even demons believe...