Can A Person Be a Christian And A Sinner At The Same Time ?
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aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Nothing. All people who sin are sinners. Christians are sinners who have been forgiven and now choose to love others and God. The more often we choose to love, the less we sin.
To sin is an action that can be repented for... whereas being a sinner is the state of one's fallen human spirit.It is who they are rather than what they do.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
But to be a Christian is not to stop sinning - it is a redirection (repentance) of focus from serving self to serving God and neighbor.
This describes the old testament model perfectly. Under the New Covenant we have the new life in Christ which is not under the old sin nature. ALL things are made new in Christ. We must die to sin in order to be made alive to God.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
actually the OT model is the same as the NT - Jesus was not teaching anything new - the Pharisees had simply legalized the message. The only difference between the people in the OT and NT is that they were not justified and therefore had to hide behind the sacrifice of animals rather than the saving blood of Christ.
The Reformers grappled with this or a similar question and had come up with an answer succinctly summarized at monergism.com.
Although I am not a 'Calvinist' or 'Lutheran' per se I do strongly agree with them on this point...
"How is the Christian to see himself in this world? "Simul iustus et peccator" - "At the same time righteous and a sinner". Justification is forensic. In Christ, we are declared, counted or reckoned to be righteous when God imputes the righteousness of Christ (an "alien righteousness") to our account. Christ's righteousness ascribed to the redeemed individual without their personal merit. We are declared righteous in Christ, it is imputed to us -- it is counted as ours ... not infused in us. We are counted righteous in God's eyes because of Christ. But this does not make us righteous in ourselves. That will only happen at our glorification when Christ transforms these bodies to be sealed in righteousness. Justifying righteousness is something which always resides in the Person of Christ alone. The imputation of this "alien" righteousness is the only means by which man can be acceptable to God. As long as the Christian lives, he is guilty in himself, but "in Christ" he is righteous and accounted precious."
Although I am not a 'Calvinist' or 'Lutheran' per se I do strongly agree with them on this point...
"How is the Christian to see himself in this world? "Simul iustus et peccator" - "At the same time righteous and a sinner". Justification is forensic. In Christ, we are declared, counted or reckoned to be righteous when God imputes the righteousness of Christ (an "alien righteousness") to our account. Christ's righteousness ascribed to the redeemed individual without their personal merit. We are declared righteous in Christ, it is imputed to us -- it is counted as ours ... not infused in us. We are counted righteous in God's eyes because of Christ. But this does not make us righteous in ourselves. That will only happen at our glorification when Christ transforms these bodies to be sealed in righteousness. Justifying righteousness is something which always resides in the Person of Christ alone. The imputation of this "alien" righteousness is the only means by which man can be acceptable to God. As long as the Christian lives, he is guilty in himself, but "in Christ" he is righteous and accounted precious."
NO! A Christian is dead to sin. A baby Christian still sin, but he or she is not a spiritual Christian.
(Romans 6: 1-2) “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
(Romans 6:11) “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus”
(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”
(Romans 6: 1-2) “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
(Romans 6:11) “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus”
(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”
Jesus just replaced animals? This is only part of what Jesus did. No animal was ever resurrected in victory. We cannot abide in animals etc....
So those who are dead with Christ are also alive with Him and now live in a new life from heaven. This is why the testament in Christ is called "new" and not just a "modified OT".
Exactly! But it would seem that it is the baby Christians that are being catered to nowadays. Preaching the full intent of the gospel (meat) is seen as bizarre to say the least.
This is wrong of course....His righteousness is proven in US through grace. Through Christ we are enabled to fulfill the requirements of the law. Through Christ we walk as He did in the world. As He IS so are WE in the world.
Yes but even our so called righteousness is sin (and needs to be repented of) when compared to His Righteousness. We still remain sinners apart from Him is their point that many seem to miss.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Prism...yeah, I cautiously agree - although it seems to be a complicated way of saying that Christ declares us righteous by justifying us until we are sanctified and transformed. Ok, if it needs to be communicated in that complicated language to be taken seriously, cool.
Episkopos - if you really think that you never sin because the Bible seems to say that Christians never sin, you must not know yourself.
One of the scary things I have run into on this board and in some conservative Christian circles is a refusal to think theological ideas all the way through; the ramifications of God committing evil acts, without regard for His own ethics is that He is evil! If you are selfish in any form, you are a sinner! It doesn't matter what the Bible seems to say - reason dictates that anyone who commits evil acts is evil - just like people who lie are liars - and selfishness is sinfulness.
Episkopos - if you really think that you never sin because the Bible seems to say that Christians never sin, you must not know yourself.
One of the scary things I have run into on this board and in some conservative Christian circles is a refusal to think theological ideas all the way through; the ramifications of God committing evil acts, without regard for His own ethics is that He is evil! If you are selfish in any form, you are a sinner! It doesn't matter what the Bible seems to say - reason dictates that anyone who commits evil acts is evil - just like people who lie are liars - and selfishness is sinfulness.
That is true if you do not abide in Christ. One who abides in Christ displays HIS righteousness. WE are His righteousness on earth today who are IN Christ.
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 1 Cor. 1:30
2Co_5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
WE are made God's righteousness...IN HIM. In Christ!!!! We are the ones who walk now above sin in the law of life IN Christ.
1Co_15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
Put on Christ and stop sinning! Christianity is alive and real...there is a living God! When we put faith in the LIVING God we receive Christ....first as the power of the cross that separates us from what we once drew strength from...and then to be able to abide in the miraculous walk of Jesus Christ above sin....in permanent fellowship with God in the light.
If someone has not or does not experience this; rather than invent a weak religion based on dubious bible interpretations that lack any reality...seek the Lord!
Put on Christ and stop sinning! Christianity is alive and real...there is a living God! When we put faith in the LIVING God we receive Christ....first as the power of the cross that separates us from what we once drew strength from...and then to be able to abide in the miraculous walk of Jesus Christ above sin....in permanent fellowship with God in the light.
If someone has not or does not experience this; rather than invent a weak religion based on dubious bible interpretations that lack any reality...seek the Lord!
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
I think the vast majority of believers would change the verse to..
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in Himself",...thus absolving themselves of any responsibility AS WELL AS deny the true power of the gospel.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
I think the vast majority of believers would change the verse to..
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in Himself",...thus absolving themselves of any responsibility AS WELL AS deny the true power of the gospel.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Episkopos - why do you ignore all the questions and points that people are making about your perfection and sinlessness and simply provide verses that you believe point to Christians never sinning again? You are ignoring the fact that you are less than perfect and that you act selfishly AND you are a Christian - just like all Christians do.
The righteousness we receive through Christ is from God not us...so there is no impurity in it. We are no longer alienated from God in Christ. Rather WE take on HIS righteousness to become the same as Him. We are conformed to His death so we can be conformed to HIS life.
2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
Jesus Christ has no spot or wrinkle in Him. We must learn to put off (through the power of the cross) the old man and put on the new man which is ALREADY holy. The Christian walk is one of seeking AND finding. It is a daily exercise of victory through surrender. Jesus comes to live with us and empower us to do as He did in the body.
It is not my perfection...it is the Lord's perfection. I am trying to show you the nature of the gospel and the Christian life in Jesus. Those who know this life realize that the power is from God. Only in the Spirit can we take EVERY thought captive for Christ. If we are filled with the Spirit and overflowing there is no room for any impurity. Try filling an overflowing glass! Rather, we influence the world through the grace that springs out of us and change the world around us.
A gospel that is lacking this power to change the believer and the world around is NOT the true gospel.
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