Can an evolutionist also be a Christian?

[kalixx]

Some Christians take the 6-day creation story of Genesis as literal whilst others hold that it is a symbolical representation of the evolutionary development of the world, life forms and, ultimately, human beings.But if humans evolved in any way gradually surely there must have been a long duration of early development stages where humans had not yet developed any sense of right and wrong, obedience or responsiblity.But these early forms of human life all still died. Death was in the world from the very start of the evolutionary process.But Christianity holds as one of its cornerstones that death became the punishment of sin following the fall of Adam and Eve at the very beginning of creation, and not simply a natural process.If this be the case, and if humans were evolved and not instantaneously created, at which point did humankind suddenly become God's humans rather than just the preliminary evolutionary build-up variety? Did humankind at some vague point suddenly start dying from sin instead of just a natural process? Were there God humans at the same time as other last stage of evolving humans? Was Adam's father a pre-God human?Or are we only talking about spiritual death? In which case, did all the early stage humans have no spirit and die like animals? Did God suddenly breathe spirit into all human "animals" or only two of them? Did Cain marry an "animal" human? What would be the point of the whole evolutionary process if the early thousands of years of "near-humans" were just bio-waste?Although evolution may seem more likely than the biblical 6-day wonder that took place some 4-6,000 years ago (including creating light from distant stars "in-transit" to the earth because otherwise the starlight that we look at now wouldn't have reached us yet), does this also exclude belief in death as the price of sin? And if death is not the consequence of sin, how can one believe in Jesus giving life through sacrifice for the sin of the world? And if one cannot believe in his sacrifice, how can one be a Christian?How does a Christian evolutionist get around the choice that either all humans have been God's humans right from the species' earliest basic forms and therefore death was pre-sin; or that God stepped in only once humans had developed to a certain point prior to which all humans had no salvation prospect at all because they preceded Adam?

 

[Wakka]

Almost. Almost. A Christian can not accept macro evolution. The evolution from single celled, to multicelled organisms. From creature to creature. It's not been proven, only assumptions have been made.However, micro evolution (or adaptation, what it really is called) is completely Biblical. God gave us the ability to adapt to survive. That is why in China people look different than the people from Africa. The people adapted to their surroundings. You take a dog north to Alaska, it's fur will be thicker. You get the point?There are some Christians in this board that accept a long, aged earth. A billion years. Because they saw something in Genesis that hinted on a long aged earth.I do not. I believe in a 6-12 thousand year earth.Watch these videos by Kent Hovind.
These Seminars are NOT copyrighted. If you are interested in helping support Kent Hovind his video series is available on DVD at http://shopping.drdino.com/view_item....This Creation Seminar is only one of the seven listed below:Creation Seminar 1 - The Age of the EarthCreation Seminar 2 - The Garden of EdenCreation Seminar 3 - Dinosaurs and the BibleCreation Seminar 4 - Lies in the TextbooksCreation Seminar 5 - The Dangers of EvolutionCreation Seminar 6 - The Hovind TheoryCreation Seminar 7 - Questions and AnswersBelow are direct links to each part of Seminar 1, which is 16 parts long.Part 1 http://youtube.com/watch?v=WIeLRD1L9yYPart 2 http://youtube.com/watch?v=tr2CP86XVuwPart 3 http://youtube.com/watch?v=GwuvYtBNZskPart 4 http://youtube.com/watch?v=rW5_zAmS5mQPart 5 http://youtube.com/watch?v=z9HF0U19IhAPart 6 http://youtube.com/watch?v=PMeUoMyI8zMPart 7 http://youtube.com/watch?v=hrYysNbs5tQPart 8 http://youtube.com/watch?v=z6VNupezA14Part 9 http://youtube.com/watch?v=F_JZHslDfXwPart 10 http://youtube.com/watch?v=FCOGDfzkxMkPart 11 http://youtube.com/watch?v=PpsyfBzS27sPart 12 http://youtube.com/watch?v=ByChlQE8m3QPart 13 http://youtube.com/watch?v=QP6zZ75UJ8MPart 14 http://youtube.com/watch?v=CvWtGx9BaeoPart 15 http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Pj1pJl-LX8Part 16 http://youtube.com/watch?v=1TLAQC-tjsQA better quality version of this seminar is available at: http://www.livevideo.com/Joshua271987If you want this Seminar in its full original quality, uncut. You can download it by going to the last link on the bottom of this page.Divx 6 required: http://www.divx.com/divx/windows/Kent Hovind CS 1 "The Age of the Earth"http://video.stage6.com/1585762/.divx(Copy and Paste the URL. If you don't, and you just click on it, it wont work).The Full video file in the link above is 1.97 GB, so it will take a while to download.

 

[Dunamite]

You can be a Christian and believe in evolution. The Bible does not say that things were created in six literal earth days.Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. Earth existed before creation began. Therefore the universe could be billions of years old. We know from science that days are relative to location. A day on Mercury is shorter that on Jupiter. God would not be limited to a 24 hour Earth day. The days began to be reckoned before the sun and moon were created.Genesis 1: 14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.This was the fourth day of creation. that means that the sun and moon could not be used to measure the three days that existed previously. Therefore a different standard must be used to measure the "days" of creation.This is all a moot point. We do not have to lock ourselves into a position. We can allow ourselves to be amazed by creation regardless of whether it took six literal days or a longer period of time. God still designed it and made it happen.God was delighted in his creation. He must have watched things unfold with love and devotion as a great artist would. I think that he would have preferred to savor it over a long period of time. I don't like the idea of Abracadabra creation. One second nobody and the next second a complete person for this reason.God used the same building blocks (matter and energy) over and over to make the universe. Why wouldn't he use the same building blocks (DNA) over and over to make diverse life forms? That there are relationships between them is not a coincidence. It is part of God's plan and design. If he chose to spread this over thousands or millions of years does not diminish his genius or make us less amazed one iota.What about Adam and Eve? What about Job? Were they real people? It does not change anything. Job is a story of how God is sovereign and present in all circumstances. It tells of the nature of good and evil and the source of suffering. Whether Job really existed does not matter in the end. Adam and Eve may be icons. The Bible is full of icons. Adam and Eve may represent all men and women or they could be literal people and it changes nothing. The creation became separated from the creator and needed to be reconciled to him. In the end it does not matter unless you choose to make it all important.I do not believe completely one way or another. I don't think that it is important enough to worry about. There is nothing in evolution that troubles me. Everything about God including his word amazes me. If God had thought it important enough he would have left no doubt. Instead he wants us to continue to seek truth and have faith whatever science may uncover.I feel the same way about discussion of the End Times. We can lock ourselves into positions and then be forced to defend them or we can be open and full of wonder and anticipation. That is the way I prefer to be.God is amazing. His love and grace are pure and beyond measure. His desire for us is to know him and to love him as he loves us. Evolution has no bearing on this at all. It is just a mechanism. The Big Bang is similar. It is an event, but it does not change who God is or his character.God loves us. He made us as an act of his love. He wants to be in a relationship with each of us. He has revealed himself to us throughout history, but this proved to be insufficient due to our stubborn resistance. He planned to intervene by entering into his own creation at the time of his choosing. He came in the person of Jesus Christ. We rejected him, but he overcame and triumphed. He left and will return to redeem all who believe in him. He wants us to spread the news and continue his work through the guidance and leadership of the Holy Spirit. What more is important?The world was made by God. We were made by God. The mechanism or timespan is a red herring. We will not know for sure until God tells us. If evolution or the physics of the universe becomes such that it contradicts anything that is really important then I will be forced to re-evaluate my position.Much of what we do is wasted energy. We can debate things till we are blue in the face. Yet the Bible tells us that we have incomplete understanding. Saying that we know for sure or trying to pretend that we are experts is a waste of time. Some things we are not meant to know. I look at these forums and think of all of the discussions. Some are meaningful and lead to greater understanding while many are fruitless.The question was can we be a Christian and believe in evolution? Being a Christian has nothing to do with evolution. Being a Christian touches who I am. It is at the core of my being. Evolution is a scientific theory that has some merit but it hardly is worth building my or anyone else's life around.One can make anything into a religion if one chooses to raise something up in importance. That is idolatry. If someone raises evolution to this stature then it would become a problem for a Christian. However, it would have to stand in line. There is a long list of things that people elevate to objects of worship. This includes money and country. For many of us, these are merely ideas or human constructs. For some they are all important.We live in troubling times. For many people who call themselves Christian, God is just an idea thrown into the mix. He is there with a whole lot of things that people are chasing after. God continues to elude them because they cannot see him. They are too busy looking elsewhere.We need to keep our focus. As long as we are locked in on God then nothing else matters. If we start looking elsewhere or build straw men then we will lose sight of what is important. Evolution for many Christians is a straw man, a fictional opponent. He is much maligned and little understood. He is a bogeyman who is seen as a threat. In fact evolution is none of these.

 

[kalixx]

I think you missed my point, Dunamite. Briefly, how can an evolutionist believe that death is the punishment for sin when it is all the time simply a natural process that existed even whilst humankind was in a stage of early development where it wouldn't even concieve such concepts as God, obedience, right and wrong.But if you cannot equate death with sin how can you equate Jesus with salvation from sin? We die anyway regardless of whether we sin or not in an evolutionary model.

 

[Jordan]

Evolution and Bible are both enemies, Evolutions contradicts God's Words.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

 

[Jerusalem Junkie]

But if you cannot equate death with sin how can you equate Jesus with salvation from sin? We die anyway regardless of whether we sin or not in an evolutionary model.
Well if we die anyway why question it? Nit picking is all this is. Looking for a hole in the armour to exploit a theory that you have no explanation for other than senseless rambling. And I hate to break it but the earth is a lot older than 4-6 thousand years old. Where did that theory come from? Please don't tell me this stupid Big Bang theory I don't buy it.

 

[Jordan]

(Two;38102)
Well if we die anyway why question it? Nit picking is all this is. Looking for a hole in the armour to exploit a theory that you have no explanation for other than senseless rambling. And I hate to break it but the earth is a lot older than 4-6 thousand years old. Where did that theory come from? Please don't tell me this stupid Big Bang theory I don't buy it.
I agree with you two. If people read Genesis 1:1-2, Jeremiah 4:22-28, II Peter 3:5-8, they would know that the Earth is over 6,000 years old. I do not like to guess age for the Earth as it is pointless to do so.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

 

[kalixx]

(thesuperjag;38099)
Evolution and Bible are both enemies, Evolutions contradicts God's Words.
That, Superjag, is precisely what I was trying to show, but with evidence instead of just stating personal opinions.(Two;38102)
Well if we die anyway why question it? Nit picking is all this is. Looking for a hole in the armour to exploit a theory that you have no explanation for other than senseless rambling. And I hate to break it but the earth is a lot older than 4-6 thousand years old. Where did that theory come from? Please don't tell me this stupid Big Bang theory I don't buy it.
Is Jesus dying for our sins really "nit picking" for you? Are the basic pillars upon which Christianity stands simply "senseless ramblings"? I also believe the earth is a lot, lot older than the bible states.But if you feel that I am a nit-picking, senseless rambler, then I do not belong here. I am so sorry to have wasted your time. I won't post any more on this site. I am sorry to have disturbed you so.

 

[Jordan]

(kalixx;38163)
(Two;38120)
Well if we die anyway why question it? Nit picking is all this is. Looking for a hole in the armour to exploit a theory that you have no explanation for other than senseless rambling. And I hate to break it but the earth is a lot older than 4-6 thousand years old. Where did that theory come from? Please don't tell me this stupid Big Bang theory I don't buy it.
Is Jesus dying for our sins really "nit picking" for you? Are the basic pillars upon which Christianity stands simply "senseless ramblings"? I also believe the earth is a lot, lot older than the bible states.But if you feel that I am a nit-picking, senseless rambler, then I do not belong here. I am so sorry to have wasted your time. I won't post any more on this site. I am sorry to have disturbed you so.The bible never states that the Earth is 6,000 years old. (6 Days) Does anyone ever read Genesis 1:1? The bible is mostly on this Earth Age, the Second Earth Age.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

 

[Wakka]

(thesuperjag;38170)
The bible never states that the Earth is 6,000 years old. (6 Days) Does anyone ever read Genesis 1:1? The bible is mostly on this Earth Age, the Second Earth Age.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
Jag, stop getting ahead of yourself. The Bible only hints it, we can only assume that it's ancient. I don't believe in this assumption, I just believe in the literal Word of God.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

(kalixx;37952)
I think you missed my point, Dunamite. Briefly, how can an evolutionist believe that death is the punishment for sin when it is all the time simply a natural process that existed even whilst humankind was in a stage of early development where it wouldn't even concieve such concepts as God, obedience, right and wrong.But if you cannot equate death with sin how can you equate Jesus with salvation from sin? We die anyway regardless of whether we sin or not in an evolutionary model.
It would be hard to see a Christian evolutionist as you have stated it. My understanding however is that various forms of "theistic" evolutionist handle these objections in various ways which basically do require God's intervention in the process. Evolution however is still very much a theory and one with many holes, some so large they are more properly called gaps.

 

[kalixx]

(DrBubbaLove;38187)
It would be hard to see a Christian evolutionist as you have stated it. My understanding however is that various forms of "theistic" evolutionist handle these objections in various ways which basically do require God's intervention in the process. Evolution however is still very much a theory and one with many holes, some so large they are more properly called gaps.
Thankyou, Dr Bubbalove

It is so rewarding to find someone here at last who is willing to actually explore and discuss things and not just go around like some religious bodyguard stamping on anyone who dares believe something different, or even dares to read a different version of the bible.Yes, I agree, there is a strong school of thought that evolution was a tool utilised by a god in designing and developing his universe. In some ways it is a very beautiful scenario, like the master artist lovingly painting his masterpiece. However, it also has a darker side in that it also has to place direct responsibility upon that god for deliberately causing all the catastrophies that the world has ever suffered.My argument here is not (as some people might have supposed) to defend evolution, rather I am attacking it as an impossible scenario for anyone who also wishes to believe in the core message of the bible. It can certainly go hand in hand with some other religions, but I fail to see how anyone can believe in evolution and also believe that humans die because they are sinners.The bible defines a specific start to the human race with Adam and Eve, who also brought sin into being. However evolution cannot define a specific "first person", and therefore an evolutionist cannot believe that sin commenced as the bible states it did. And since this is a basic cornerstone of the bible story, how can an evolutionist be a Christian?Thanks again, Dr Bubbalove, for restoring some credibility for this site, now it is time to leave

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Have waffled back and forth myself, to me the theory has many problems. But an understanding of the theory that presupposes God's hand in it does not have to exclude any understanding of the creation story. Again there are many varitions within the general theme but you will hear some people with TE view talking about God taking two (and only two) "evolved" individuals and making them human by giving them an immortal soul and some even claim immortal bodies (until the fall). That God COULD do so we can not deny, that this explains what really happened we cannot prove or disprove. That we will one day know goes without saying.

 

[Letsgofishing]

Can an evolutionist be a christian,If the evolutionist believes in Jesus.Oh Wait Thats not the question of this thread uhI'll just throw this out theretop 7 pieces of evidence against evolutionEvidence #1There are no transitional links and intermediate forms in either the fossil record or the modern world. Therefore, there is no actual evidence that evolution has occurred either in the past or the present. Evidence #2Natural selection (the supposed evolution mechanism, along with mutations) is incapable of advancing an organism to a "higher-order". Evidence #3Although evolutionists state that life resulted from non-life, matter resulted from nothing, and humans resulted from animals, each of these is an impossibility of science and the natural world. Evidence #4The supposed hominids (creatures in-between ape and human that evolutionists believe used to exist) bones and skull record used by evolutionists often consists of `finds' which are thoroughly unrevealing and inconsistent. They are neither clear nor conclusive even though evolutionists present them as if they were. Evidence #5Nine of the twelve popularly supposed hominids are actually extinct apes/ monkeys and not part human at all. Evidence #6The final three supposed hominids put forth by evolutionists are actually modern human beings and not part monkey/ ape at all. Therefore, all twelve of the supposed hominids can be explained as being either fully monkey/ ape or fully modern human but not as something in between. Evidence #7Natural selection can be seen to have insurmountable social and practical inconsistencies. from http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/index.htmAlso I agree with Wakka on the young earth theory but don't have enough time right now to go through it in detail. ( hence the copy and paste job above)

 

[MWM]

Thank you all for your help. I have been around, studying the theories of Evolution and Creationism. For my whole life I've sort of been an Evolutionist, and recently became skeptical about it.Upon further study, I've been convinced by various sources, of the truth of Creationism. I am now a Young Earth Creationist.I couldn't believe how much evidence there is for Creationism. Theres just too much not to believe in it.Even though it was not your direct intention to do so, thank you for helping me in my struggle for the Truth

God bless.

 

[Dunamite]

(kalixx;37952)
I think you missed my point, Dunamite. Briefly, how can an evolutionist believe that death is the punishment for sin when it is all the time simply a natural process that existed even whilst humankind was in a stage of early development where it wouldn't even concieve such concepts as God, obedience, right and wrong.But if you cannot equate death with sin how can you equate Jesus with salvation from sin? We die anyway regardless of whether we sin or not in an evolutionary model.
Sorry, if I took a tangent.I am not an evolutionist. Nor am I against evolution. Death and sin are real and metaphors. Are you mixing the two?Death is natural. Everyone ever born has died, including Jesus. Death is also used as a metaphor throughout scripture.You also missed my point. As far as I know there is no test to get into Heaven. We aren't saved by works or knowledge. We don't have to do anything. We don't have to believe in Adam and Eve. We don't have to believe in the Garden of Eden. It does not matter if the earth was created in six literal days or a billion years. It does not matter if God took his time and stepped us through stages or did it all at once.We only have to believe in Jesus Christ and what he accomplished on the cross. We can be wrong about everything else.You can be a Christian and believe in evolution because it isn't about us and what we think. Even if evolution is wrong and you believe in it, you will not be turned away. People believe all kinds of wrong things. That is no basis for determining whether one is a Christian or not. Being a Christian does not make us any better or smarter. It does not mean that we are right about everything. Nor do we have to be perfect or right about this matter or any other so long as we believe that which is required.That is why I find this whole discussion weird. People have this notion that you're doomed to Hell if you are a liberal or if you believe in evolution. Christians come from all backgrounds and believe in a wide range of things.When we become Christian, we are changed in a very real and fundamental way. But that change takes a lifetime to complete. What we believe at various times of our life may be interesting but nothing more. If evolution some how diminished my capacity to believe in the person and the work of Jesus Christ or somehow inhibited the work of the Holy Spirit in my life then I could see the point. You have a different view of what it means to be a Christian from me. Mine is very narrow. It focuses on Jesus and not me. I become a Christian when I believe in him and not by what I hold to be true outside of him.I feel that we are a diverse lot. I feel that Jesus is where we can find common ground. That does not mean that I surrender all of my other views and become something else entirely. Jesus loves us just as we are, flaws and all. The Holy Spirit makes us new and we don't become new on our own initiative. I respectfully say that I don't like discussions of this sort because they attempt to add onto what Jesus did as if what he did was not enough. People say, we also have to agree about this or that. I don't think that it works this way. We can disagree and still be Christian so long as we agree on the core elements. Blessings,Dunamite

 

[Letsgofishing]

(MWM;38213)
Thank you all for your help. I have been around, studying the theories of Evolution and Creationism. For my whole life I've sort of been an Evolutionist, and recently became skeptical about it.Upon further study, I've been convinced by various sources, of the truth of Creationism. I am now a Young Earth Creationist.I couldn't believe how much evidence there is for Creationism. Theres just too much not to believe in it.Even though it was not your direct intention to do so, thank you for helping me in my struggle for the Truth

God bless.
Hey MWM Romans 1: 18-32 This is what convinced me that evolution was false. Paul predicted it thousands of years before the theory was made18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[For Life]

I think you missed my point, Dunamite.
You mean he missed your argument. I think what he wrote was spot on. Evolutionists don't argue why anything dies, that is just fact. Evolutionists argue that life creates itself. To pretend to know how life is created or how God created life is pure pride in intellect. To say that Evolution contradicts God's word is saying that you personally know how God created life. None of us knows how God did it. I personally don't think He used Evolution but maybe He did.

 

[waynemlj]

Hi Kalixx,Take a few quiet and prayerful minutes and reread Genesis chapters 1,2, and 3.Your question is answered there.The theory of evolution means that one kind of life form crossed over in time to become a different and higher life form until, finally, this life form became the highest one . . . man.That's the futility of man's darkened mind that likes to think that way. Evolutionists would have us believe we are just grown-up germs!That is not God's revelation of His creation of each kind being its own with its own seed within it for reproduction of that same kind of life form.waynemlj

 

[kalixx]

(Letsgofishing;38205)
Can an evolutionist be a christian,If the evolutionist believes in Jesus.Oh Wait Thats not the question of this thread
Well, actually, it IS the question of this thread

1) One cannot surely be a Christian if one does not believe in Jesus?2) But believing in Jesus surely means believing in his purpose for being in this world?3) Surely this purpose was to save the world from sin? 4) If one accepts this much from the bible then surely a Christian has to also accept the biblical nature and origin if sin?5) If sin in the bible originated with one man, the first man, Adam, how can evolutionists reconcile this with their belief that humans evolved gradually, seamlessly, from something less than human, with no single "first" of the species?6) Where does sin come from in the evolutionists Christianity?This was not intended as simply yet another discussion about whether or not evolution is true. Rather, it is about how anyone who does believe in evolution reconciles this with the biblical account of sin and Jesus' redemptive salvatory work - which, as I understand it, requiries a "first" human.