Can God Be Eternal And Begotten

[fivesense]

Hello Fivesense,

The Greek word "pros" ALSO means "with." St. John says that this "logos" became flesh and dwelt among them. Therefore, in the beginning was this logos that became flesh and this logos that became flesh was with God, and God was this logos that became flesh. So, I agree....God was this logos that came in the flesh and dwelt among us. God is Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is God because Christ did consider Himself EQUAL with God.
In Christ,
Selene

Selene, I value your countenance towards me, and your graciousness is not unnoticed. Thank you for bearing with me and supporting me in my efforts to convey truth. I have a request, and I know that you are able to accommodate me on it, you are an adept lady, more than capable of it.

I will supply you with the passages where pros ton theon occurs in the Scriptures, and you compare them to one another, and then let me know your conclusion of the matter. I want God to speak to you, not me, and the only way for that to happen in this instance is for you to oblige me.

John 1:1 the Word was with God,
:2 was in the beginning with God.
13:3 He was come from God and went to God; ( try substituting with here)
Acts 4:24 they lifted up their voice to God (or here)
12:5 prayer was made...unto God for him. (how about here)
24:16 a conscience void of offense toward God (or here)

Rom. 5:1 5: 1 We have peace with God ( towards fits the sense of the word as well)
10:1 my heart's desire and prayer to God (with does not fit)
15:17 in those things which pertain to God (with does not fit)
:30 strive together with me in your prayers to God (with does not fit)

2 Cor. 3:4 such trust have we...to Godward: (with does not fit)
13:7 Now I pray to God (with does not fit)

Phil. 4:6 let your requests be made known unto God (with does not fit)

1 Thes. 1:8 your faith to Godward (with does not fit)
:9 you turned to God from idols (with does not fit)

Heb. 2:17 a...high priest in things pertaining to God (with does not fit)
5:1 every high priest..in things pertaining to God (with does not fit)
1 Jn 3:21 then have we confidence toward God (with does not fit)

Rev. 12:5 and her child was caught up unto God (with does not fit)
13:6 he opened his mouth in blaspheming against God (with does not fit)

I have found it impossible to substitute "with" as a connective, in these passages. In the direction of, or pros, fits very accurately always. Pros means in direction toward something. It should therefore remain so to be true to God and His word. Pros ton theos does not mean "with God".

In the King James Version, pros is given thirty-five variations: toward, to try, for to, to this end, that, that...may, that..could, because..would, to do, to give, unto, nigh unto, at, against, before, by, whereby, with, to be compared with, within, in, between, among, the things which belong unto, those things which pertain to, things that pertain unto, in things pertaining, about, conditions of, sufficient to, what one hath against, according to, for, for what intent, because of, and of. Given the multitude of possible renderings of the word, I cannot rely on Strong's as authoritative by reason of the dilution created in his allegiance to the Authorized Version, which is fine. I do agree with the primary rendering, which is "a preposition of direction, forward to, i.e., towards".

What is your conclusion?

I must rely on the witness of Holy Spirit and the Originals for understanding the mind of God, our Father. Pros ton theon means" towards God".

fivesense


Your gravity and sincerity are duly noted. I am blessed.
fivesense

 

[Selene]

Hello Fivesense,

The Apostle John was correct when he wrote "with God" rather than "towards God." We have to look at what St. John was trying to tell us about the "Word." The Word is a being that became flesh and dwelled among men. St. John also said that "in the beginning was the Word. If the Word is separate from God as you assume, then are we to believe that Almighty God did not come first? The Word was never separated from God because Jesus (who is the Word) had claimed that He and the Father are one. They are united, not separated. The fact that St. John stated that the Word was God also implied that the Word and God are one and the same. This line of thinking is also consistent with the Bible because St. Paul recognized Jesus as being "equal with God" in Philippians 2:5-6. Although the Son is equal with the Father, He is also different from the Father, but He is not separate from the Father.

The Early Church Fathers also recognized Jesus as God. In the fourth century, St. Athanasius wrote to Serapion (a bishop in lower Egypt) the following letter that says:

"Accordingly, in the Church, one God is preached, one God who is above all things and through all things and in all things. God is abobe all things as Father, for He is principle and source; He is through all things through the Word; and He is in all things in the Holy Spirit.

In the second century, St. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp. Polycarp was the disciple of the Apostle John. So, everything that St. Irenaeus learned came from Polycarp who learned it from the Apostle John. In the second century, St. Irenaeus wrote about the Incarnation of Jesus and the Holy Trinity in his book entitled Against Heresies X.l. According to his book, St. Irenaeus wrote:

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

In the same century (2nd century), there is also a document from our Church Father St. Tertullian who wrote about the Holy Trinity:

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation... [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

My brother, the Early Church believed in the Holy Trinity, as is evidenced by the quotes above. It was the Catholic Church that made it an "official" doctrine in the fourth century at the Council of Nicea where we came into conflict with the Arians. However, they were making "official" something that the Early Church already held as doctrine.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[fivesense]

Hello Fivesense,

Selene, I condensed our posts to conserve space. Please advance me that liberty,

Hello Fivesense,

"St. John was speaking of Christ as being the Word of God because the Word became flesh and dwelt among them (John 1:14)" I do not apprehend what is being said here. Are you saying because the Word became flesh and dwelt among them, Christ then became the Word of God, whereas He was not the Word before His incarnation? Your phrasing is obscure and undefining.
"The Greek word "pros" ALSO means "with." St. John says that this "logos" became flesh and dwelt among them. Therefore, in the beginning was this logos that became flesh and this logos that became flesh was with God, and God was this logos that became flesh. So, I agree....God was this logos that came in the flesh and dwelt among us."
As I have proven to you, in accordance with rules of grammar and faithfulness to the Scriptures, pros in the Greek does not mean "with". It means in the direction of or towards another thing. This is fact, not interpretation. You must either chose between reason or fact. If fact is untenable to you due to an idea you hold contrary to God's revelation, then it is not the Scriptures that are at fault.
" God is Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is God because Christ did consider Himself EQUAL with God. " This statement is fraught with difficulties due to theological pollution and ignorance of what the Greek word theos means. Satan is called theos, men are called theos, Paul declares that there are many gods, beside the ones that are supposedly gods. God is not a name, nor is it a person. It is an English word assigned to deity. There is a difference betweem absolute and relative truth. The trouble here, in claiming Christ as God, is firstly, He never made that claim. Additionally, He would never accept it as His title, because it is His glory to point the way to the Father Who is greater than He is, and He is God in a relative sense only. He is not the One True God, Who is Spirit and invisible.

Philippians 2:5-6 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

Is it difficult for you Selene, to see that being in the form of something is not the same as being that something? It is external, not essential. A form of godliness is not essentially godliness, is it? Neither does being in the form of deity make one the Deity, out of Whom all is. The obedience to His Father to empty Himself to take the form of a slave, relinquishing all He had created to the Father's keeping while in servitude, was not robbery or pillaging on the part of the Father. It was not an issue to the Logos to empty Himself of all that He was, even though it was through Him that all things were His created.

"My brother, as I pointed out to you, Christ considered HImself also equal with God"
Such a statement, that Christ considered Himself equal with God, is a falsehood. It was Paul who stated this truth, not the Christ of God. It speaks of the relationship of the Son to the Father, and is a point of difference, not sameness. While 2+2=4, two "2's" are not a "4", though they are equal to four in the sum of their parts. I illustrate that equality donotes separateness, not sameness.

Philippians 2:10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:
2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"If Christ refused to be worshipped as you say, then why should every knee.....and I mean "EVERY KNEE" on the earth, under the earth, and even in the Heavens bow to Him? Shouldn't they bow only to God and to God alone?"
It is out of a decree from His Father that all shall bow, but this occurs after His Kingdom is established and the universe reconciled and returned unto the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Cor 15:28). Worship is to be unto God the Father of Jesus Christ alone. Jesus is to be acclaimed as Lord over all. We must honor the Father in His order of the universe. The Lord said this, and mark it closely:
Jn 5:22-23 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all [men] should honour (timosi) the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
The word is not proskeneo (crouch down, fawn) as it is with worship of the Father, it is timosi, timao. It means honor. The Lord is never said to be worshipped anywhere in Scripture. Such an act would deny Him His glory as the One Who showed the way towards His God.

"My brother, when Christ says "for my Father is greater than I" He was speaking of Himself here as He was made MAN."
The Bible does not contradict itself. In Philippians, Christ is called "equal with God" because He is God, but in John 14:28, Christ says that the Father is greater than He because He speaks of HImself as a man."
Should you hold to this unscriptural account of this passage after all that is being presented to you to consider carefully, then I will certainly defer to your opinion, and recognize your "right" to your own opinion.


"If you had read my previous post, I stated that the Father and the Son are the SAME, but ALSO DIFFERENT. That is the mystery. I tried explaining it by using the analogy of water. See my previous post.
My brother, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Truth to the Church Fathers because the Holy Spirit dwells in His Church with Christ as Her Head. What I wrote in my post came from St. Athanasius who lived in the 4th century and from St. Irenaeus who lived in the 2nd century. We baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit just as Jesus told His Apostles. He did not say to baptize in the name of the Father ONLY. "
The problem I have with your contentions, and the difficulty in answering them accurately, is they are based upon creedal formulae, and the enemy has deeply rooted himself in the ecclesia through them. None of us can totally avoid the this trap of the Adversary, and it is my hope that communion in fellowship and peace can dissolve much of his control. It is only the grace and mercy of God towards us that can provide this outcome, which I am beseeching Him for, for us all.

fivesense

In Christ,
Selene

 

[veteran]

There's plenty enough Scripture evidence that reveals Jesus Christ is God, even beyond a doubt. There's no way He would be given such a name as "Immanuel" back in Isaiah to Christ, which is also confirmed in the NT...

Matt 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
(KJV)

If Jesus Christ is not God, then why does God's Word declare Jesus Christ with the name "Immanuel" which means "God with us"?

Isa 45:15
15 Verily thou art a God That hidest Thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
(KJV)

Isa 60:16
16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
(KJV)

Isa 44:8
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even My witnesses. Is there a God beside Me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
(KJV)

God in the Old Testament declared He is The Saviour. Is there more than one Saviour? No, of course not.

Luke 1:46-47
46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
(KJV)

Even Mary declared God as The Saviour. That's why Christ Jesus is also declared as The Saviour in the NT.

1 Cor 10:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
(KJV)

Apostle Paul also declared Jesus Christ as The Rock that followed the Israelites in the wilderness. Some here should look up the definition of the name Jesus even, for the very name Jesus is hard-linked with The Father's Name. Iesous is simply the Greek equivalent of Hebrew Yehoshua (Joshua), which is Hebrew for Yah is Salvation. In 1 John 4 declaring that those who confess Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God, THAT's the idea John was talking about, God come in the flesh.

It's the pagan humanists that have come up with the idea that Christ Jesus did not exist until He was born through Mary's womb. Their false idea that Jesus is not God come in the flesh is a GNOSTIC TEACHING. Our Salvation depends upon confessing Jesus as The Christ, Immanuel (God with us) too! The reason is because there is ONLY One Saviour. Only Christ Jesus was born in the flesh and had no sin to show He was God here with us on earth. ALL others born flesh have sinned. But the Gnostics want us to believe the lie that Jesus was but a human being only, and not God, and that we can do what He did to save ourselves! That's why the major play on Christ's humanism is the focus in their false doctrines. And one of their latest schemes has been with false movies like the Davinci Code, which pushed an ancient Gnostic doctrine that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had literal children.

 

[fivesense]

Hello Fivesense,

The Apostle John was correct when he wrote "with God" rather than "towards God." We have to look at what St. John was trying to tell us about the "Word." The Word is a being that became flesh and dwelled among men. St. John also said that "in the beginning was the Word. If the Word is separate from God as you assume, then are we to believe that Almighty God did not come first? The Word was never separated from God because Jesus (who is the Word) had claimed that He and the Father are one. They are united, not separated. The fact that St. John stated that the Word was God also implied that the Word and God are one and the same. This line of thinking is also consistent with the Bible because St. Paul recognized Jesus as being "equal with God" in Philippians 2:5-6. Although the Son is equal with the Father, He is also different from the Father, but He is not separate from the Father.

The Early Church Fathers also recognized Jesus as God. In the fourth century, St. Athanasius wrote to Serapion (a bishop in lower Egypt) the following letter that says:

"Accordingly, in the Church, one God is preached, one God who is above all things and through all things and in all things. God is abobe all things as Father, for He is principle and source; He is through all things through the Word; and He is in all things in the Holy Spirit.

In the second century, St. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp. Polycarp was the disciple of the Apostle John. So, everything that St. Irenaeus learned came from Polycarp who learned it from the Apostle John. In the second century, St. Irenaeus wrote about the Incarnation of Jesus and the Holy Trinity in his book entitled Against Heresies X.l. According to his book, St. Irenaeus wrote:

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

In the same century (2nd century), there is also a document from our Church Father St. Tertullian who wrote about the Holy Trinity:

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation... [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

My brother, the Early Church believed in the Holy Trinity, as is evidenced by the quotes above. It was the Catholic Church that made it an "official" doctrine in the fourth century at the Council of Nicea where we came into conflict with the Arians. However, they were making "official" something that the Early Church already held as doctrine.

In Christ,
Selene

As I said, I will defer.
fivesense

 

[Selene]

Selene, I condensed our posts to conserve space. Please advance me that liberty,

" God is Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is God because Christ did consider Himself EQUAL with God. " This statement is fraught with difficulties due to theological pollution and ignorance of what the Greek word theos means. Satan is called theos, men are called theos, Paul declares that there are many gods, beside the ones that are supposedly gods. God is not a name, nor is it a person. It is an English word assigned to deity. There is a difference betweem absolute and relative truth. The trouble here, in claiming Christ as God, is firstly, He never made that claim. Additionally, He would never accept it as His title, because it is His glory to point the way to the Father Who is greater than He is, and He is God in a relative sense only. He is not the One True God, Who is Spirit and invisible.

Hello Fivesense,

Actually, Christ did make that claim...that He is God, which is the reason the Jews wanted to stone Him (John 10:33). In Philippians, St. Paul says that Christ is equal with God and then goes on to explain the incarnation. What St. Paul says in this passage is the incarnation as it is understood through him, the Apostles, and the Early Church.

Philippians 2:6-11 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

God knows humility not only through knowledge, but also from experience. Also, God not only knows humanity not only because He created humanity, but also because He experienced humanity. The All-Knowing God even knows death not just knowing ABOUT Death,, but actually knowing it through EXPERIENCE through His divine Son. A god who only knows things but experiences nothing is not an All-knowing god. YHWH is All-knowing because of His divine wisdom and knowledge.....a knowledge that also includes "experience."

The problem I have with your contentions, and the difficulty in answering them accurately, is they are based upon creedal formulae, and the enemy has deeply rooted himself in the ecclesia through them. None of us can totally avoid the this trap of the Adversary, and it is my hope that communion in fellowship and peace can dissolve much of his control. It is only the grace and mercy of God towards us that can provide this outcome, which I am beseeching Him for, for us all.

While it is true that the enemy can be found in the ecclesia, it is also true that the Holy Spirit dwells in the ecclesia with Christ as Her Head. We know and trust that Christ and the Holy Spirit who dwells in the ecclesia (Church) is more powerful than the enemy. We trust in Christ's words when He said, that He will build His Church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18).

In Christ,
Selene

 

[Doppleganger]

Just a few Thoughts!

Some Jews believe that God brought order to chaos. And outta chaos produced life. Science says life sprang from non life.

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Linear time moves in 1 direction 1st to last.
Enoch lived 365 yrs and was taken. - Has beginning no end.
We live, then Die.

Time, Like Death, Is never exprienced by a non-corporeal God.
God in the Flesh (Jesus) experienced this once briefly.
Eternal -> Corporal -> Right Back to it.

Circular (Non-Linear) -> Beginning and End are joined together.
God doesn't view time in bits, its one and all at the same time.

Genesis - beginnings .... Really means ORIGINS

After thoughts - Muslims argue that God can't be 1
or 1+1+1=3
BUT 1x1x1=1