Can God rescue a soul from hell?

[Helen]

@amadeus What James and John were arguing about is what I am speaking about... " Let us be on Your right and left hand in Your Kingdom. "
Until the very end people will continue to contend that all Christians are equal in the Kingdom. James and John knew this to not be true...they wanted to be as close to Him as possible...as you know this is what we are choosing every single day.....where we will sit , in The Kingdom.
But many are just glad that they are 'saved', got their ticket ... and then they live with one foot in God's realm and one foot in the world...yet expect the same placement in the Kingdom as Moses, Paul, or the little old lady down the road who spend her days in prayer before the Lord.

Just my two cents ....Helen

 

[junobet]

"God may have approved of David, but did David believe in Christ?"
Yes.

How so?

 

[junobet]

@amadeus What James and John were arguing about is what I am speaking about... " Let us be on Your right and left hand in Your Kingdom. "
Until the very end people will continue to contend that all Christians are equal in the Kingdom. James and John knew this to not be true...they wanted to be as close to Him as possible...as you know this is what we are choosing every single day.....where we will sit , in The Kingdom.

Mmmh, you make it sound nice and I respect your personal take on this, but did you read what Jesus’ answer was concerning this argument? It always seemed to me He did not really like it when His disciples craved grandeur and bickered amongst each other who'd be ‘first’.

But many are just glad that they are 'saved', got their ticket ... and then they live with one foot in God's realm and one foot in the world...yet expect the same placement in the Kingdom as Moses, Paul, or the little old lady down the road who spend her days in prayer before the Lord.

Just out of interest: what’s your take on the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard? The one where the workers who’ve worked longest complain about getting the same pay as those who started working later.

Just my two cents ....Helen

Personally I can relate more to Hans Urs von Balthasar’s two cents on this thread’s topic:

“Hell is to be contemplated strictly as a matter which concerns me alone. As part of the spiritual life it belongs behind the 'closed door' of my own room. From the standpoint of living faith, I cannot fundamentally believe in anyone's damnation but my own; as far as my neighbor is concerned, the light of resurrection can never be so obscured that I would be allowed or obliged to stop hoping for him.”

 

[amadeus]

Oh I know that...but that was not Heaven was it?
I believe it was the "Great Holding Tank in the sky" ...until Jesus resurrection.

Whether it is a parable or reality, heaven or hell or someplace else, the message as I understand it on this point is still the same. One did rise from the dead that we might live. If a person has had the opportunity to hear from Jesus, the One risen, and refused, what further opportunity would there be? Is God unfair?

"While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." Matt 17:5

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus What James and John were arguing about is what I am speaking about... " Let us be on Your right and left hand in Your Kingdom. "
Until the very end people will continue to contend that all Christians are equal in the Kingdom. James and John knew this to not be true...they wanted to be as close to Him as possible...as you know this is what we are choosing every single day.....where we will sit , in The Kingdom.
But many are just glad that they are 'saved', got their ticket ... and then they live with one foot in God's realm and one foot in the world...yet expect the same placement in the Kingdom as Moses, Paul, or the little old lady down the road who spend her days in prayer before the Lord.

Just my two cents ....Helen

I am not certain of your point.

Remember that I am of the persuasion that there are three heavens. Jesus was in all three. Every believer in any measure has entered at least 1st heaven. 3rd heaven the focal point of the Father no one may enter into with sin or with even the ability to sin... as I see it. 2nd heaven is more complicated and I won't try detail it here...

Salvation once finally obtained means never dying, but I do not believe it is related directly to the three heavens other than as the conditions through a person must pass to always be in the presence of the Father. From outside the camp we enter into 1st heaven . To get to face to face with the Father we must go also through 2nd heaven and into 3rd heaven. This is everyone who is saved.

Salvation itself is the single penny each received for completing his task, whether for a long day's work or for only that one hour. The person who has obtained the single penny may or may not receive additional rewards or special positions.

That is not two cents, but only one, the important one. To get even that one do we not first have to kill all of our unclean and then also our clean beasts? No beastly natures, not even clean ones, in third heaven?

 

[Helen]

I am not certain of your point.

Remember that I am of the persuasion that there are three heavens. Jesus was in all three. Every believer in any measure has entered at least 1st heaven. 3rd heaven the focal point of the Father no one may enter into with sin or with even the ability to sin... as I see it. 2nd heaven is more complicated and I won't try detail it here...

Salvation once finally obtained means never dying, but I do not believe it is related directly to the three heavens other than as the conditions through a person must pass to always be in the presence of the Father. From outside the camp we enter into 1st heaven . To get to face to face with the Father we must go also through 2nd heaven and into 3rd heaven. This is everyone who is saved.

Salvation itself is the single penny each received for completing his task, whether for a long day's work or for only that one hour. The person who has obtained the single penny may or may not receive additional rewards or special positions.

That is not two cents, but only one, the important one. To get even that one do we not first have to kill all of our unclean and then also our clean beasts? No beastly natures, not even clean ones, in third heaven?

I thought the point of your other post was that people know each other " in heaven" You quoted "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."Luke 16:29-31 "

I thought your point here was showing that he knew Abraham.
Obviously somehow we are not connecting. lol
( I believe the second heaven is where Michael and The Army of the Enemy fight...and where the warfare is happening for our souls....and where Satan accuses us day and night.. and other things....etc)

 

[Helen]

Mmmh, you make it sound nice and I respect your personal take on this, but did you read what Jesus’ answer was concerning this argument? It always seemed to me He did not really like it when His disciples craved grandeur and bickered amongst each other who'd be ‘first’.

My point being that Jesus did NOT say " Oh how silly , everyone in heaven are all just the same..."
What He said was- “But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.”

"In my Fathers House are many mansion ( levels/rooms ) I go to prepare a place for you."

 

[Helen]

Just out of interest: what’s your take on the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard? The one where the workers who’ve worked longest complain about getting the same pay as those who started working later.

I believe this is addressing such as the thief on the cross..and any death bed salvation...Salvation is given whether we've been saved 55 years or 5 hours.

It is our spiritual life commitment and our walk of faith which determine out position in the kingdom. Right through scripture it shows those who are and those who aren't. Jesus didn't take all twelve up to see the glory of His transfiguration, He only took Peter , James, and John. Etc..the patterns are there in scripture...
But, it is no beach to die on...it will be shown what it will be when our life is weighed...and found to be gold , silver and precious stones, or wood hay and stubble. The fire will reveal every man's heart.

.....H

 

[tabletalk]

How so?

I'll use this verse to suggest that King David believed in Christ: from 1Corinthians 10.
"Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2. all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3. all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ."

 

[junobet]

I'll use this verse to suggest that King David believed in Christ: from 1Corinthians 10.
"Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2. all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3. all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ."

Interesting. So there is the possibility of drinking from the spiritual rock that is Christ long before Jesus was born and seen by His followers as God incarnate. Do you see this applying only to the ancient Israelites and their descendants, or would you see this possibility as a more general proof for Rahner’s conception of “anonymous Christianity” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_Christian)?

 

[amadeus]

I thought the point of your other post was that people know each other " in heaven" You quoted "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."Luke 16:29-31 "

No, my point was simply regarding no 2nd chances for people who lived since the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus. With OT people it may be more complicated.

I thought your point here was showing that he knew Abraham.
Obviously somehow we are not connecting. lol
( I believe the second heaven is where Michael and The Army of the Enemy fight...and where the warfare is happening for our souls....and where Satan accuses us day and night.. and other things....etc)

Well, I am certain there has never been and never will be any sin in 3rd heaven. In 2nd heaven it's more difficult to understand. I believe that anyone momentarily [or longer] gets into the Spirit while still here in his flesh is glimpsing, [if not entering] 2nd heaven. Your idea higher battles there is one to keep in mind. Presently I really do not know.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

There is no rules God has to follow that declare he is forbidden from rescuing a soul from hell.

God can toss paper into a fire, wait till it turns to Ash, then turn it back into paper. He made man out of dust after all.

I discovered that the scriptures that say all shall be saved outnumber the scriptures that speak of eternal damnation.

So who is being biblical...the one who speaks of eternal damnation or the one who believes all shall be purified? Both.... But the one who says all shall be saved has more scriptures to support him/her.

Here are a few:

John 12:32 ESV /

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

1 Corinthians 15:22

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Peter 4:6 ESV /

For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

Isaiah 25:6-8 ESV /

On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined. And he will swallow up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the Lord has spoken."



Yes, sinners are tossed into a lake of fire, but God is a consuming fire scripture says. God speaks of purifying his people as gold is refined in a furnace. God could use the lake of fire to purify and remold people. God can do whatever he wants to.

An intercessor can even get God to change his mind.

Exodus 32:14 Yahweh repented of the evil which he said he would do to his people.

There are no rules God has to follow. An intercessor can stop God from doing what he says he will do. It's biblical.

If a mother in heaven is sad that her son is in hell , and she begs God night and day for her son to be purified, and her son truly repents, there aren't any rules that tell God he can't answer her prayers. Hells doors are locked perhaps, but God has the keys.

“Of the 1,850 verses in the New Testament that record Jesus’ words, 13 percent of them deal with the subject of eternal judgment and hell. In fact, Jesus spoke more frequently about hell than He did about heaven.”
Read more at Did Jesus speak more about Hell than about Heaven?
If Jesus warned about hell more than anyone else, it's something to take very serious.

 

[Helen]

In 2nd heaven it's more difficult to understand. I believe that anyone momentarily [or longer] gets into the Spirit while still here in his flesh is glimpsing, [if not entering] 2nd heaven. Your idea higher battles there is one to keep in mind. Presently I really do not know.

Me too..Probably you , as well as myself have heard preaching on the second heaven. I can't verify much of it from scripture...but it did make good spiritual sense to me.
We taught our people that when ( young in the faith) hearing from the Spirit be it tongues, prophesy, a word, or whatever..to "check" the inner witness of the word before uttering anything. As you mentioned, the second heaven is where all the spiritual good and bad activity is happening.
We had one young convert ( but older in years) she would so easily "hear" in a meeting and straight way start speaking it out!! No filtering at all.

I remember her very first one...out of the blue she said " He is here, I see him, he is so big and has wings..blue, green and blue feathers , he is flapping his feathers over us..etc etc.." I just quietly started singing and the rest of the gathering followed me until she had finished.
After the meeting Dave and I took her aside and taught her 'how' to listen to The Holy Spirit...and not just pick up anything floating around 'out there'..
I think people like her ( that can so quickly tune into the spirit real) are at much greater risk than those who have no idea how to get quiet with God and listen. We didn't want to shut her down, or crush her confidence, because she had a quick ear..but she needed to mature and grow..soon she learned how to "test the spirits"...and she became a real blessing.
I believe much more is happening in the realm around us in the second heaven that we know. Yet the hear and now and inner working of God, is our 'spiritual occupation' for this day.

 

[amadeus]

Me too..Probably you , as well as myself have heard preaching on the second heaven. I can't verify much of it from scripture...but it did make good spiritual sense to me.
We taught our people that when ( young in the faith) hearing from the Spirit be it tongues, prophesy, a word, or whatever..to "check" the inner witness of the word before uttering anything. As you mentioned, the second heaven is where all the spiritual good and bad activity is happening.

This can be good advice or not. On the one hand after we first meet the Master which is probably simply a Holy Ghost thing, we must then get into the eating of His flesh, which for most people comes by reading and studying the Bible. The problem for many is eating His flesh without quenching the Spirit. A lot a churches [all?] actually teach people to quench the Holy Spirit although of course they would deny it as they do not realize that that is what they are doing. Men's programs in "church" settings will quench the Spirit of God very quickly. From the road into delusion moves fast. This is where I see most of the older church groups and many of the new ones. I will state just a few examples off the top of my head:

Certain time for instrument playing and...
Certain time for singing
Certain special singers
Certain time for prayer requests and prayers
Certain time for man directed testimony service
No room for visitor preaching/teaching unless arranged and approved ahead of time by the powers that be [not God!]
Really those do no more than scratch the surface of the possibilities or the things made into impossibilities by men.

We had one young convert ( but older in years) she would so easily "hear" in a meeting and straight way start speaking it out!! No filtering at all.

Actually that sounds good, as it means simply that she is shooting from the hip taking no aim. That could be the best way even though her own fleshly perceptions would be mixed into the output. Really when men begin to program the services in the eyes of God what is the difference between many of them and her?

I remember her very first one...out of the blue she said " He is here, I see him, he is so big and has wings..blue, green and blue feathers , he is flapping his feathers over us..etc etc.." I just quietly started singing and the rest of the gathering followed me until she had finished.
After the meeting Dave and I took her aside and taught her 'how' to listen to The Holy Spirit...and not just pick up anything floating around 'out there'..

Just so! This is the help that we are able to give when we are really tuned into the Holy Spirit ourselves. The problem again is that not all would be helpers are paying close enough attention to the Holy Spirit themselves. Who is to judge? The pastor? You? Me? Etc.?

I think people like her ( that can so quickly tune into the spirit real) are at much greater risk than those who have no idea how to get quiet with God and listen. We didn't want to shut her down, or crush her confidence, because she had a quick ear..but she needed to mature and grow..soon she learned how to "test the spirits"...and she became a real blessing.
I believe much more is happening in the realm around us in the second heaven that we know. Yet the hear and now and inner working of God, is our 'spiritual occupation' for this day.

Yes, we have more than one who are pressing for what we call a "gully washer" service. I am certainly not against such services for God brings them to us and uses them, but it needs to be according to His time rather than ours. They assume or presume that by pressing that way they will effectively enter [2nd?] heaven in the moment, but that is not all there is to 2nd heaven. More importantly going into and through 2nd heaven, I believe, is the only Way into 3rd heaven.

As a young man I was frequently dancing before the Lord in the Spirit, shouting and running the aisles. [I still do but the body of flesh is more limited these days.] The Lord revealed to me that sometimes I was more into pleasing myself or receiving the glory of people than I was in pleasing Him. That was Him teaching me to test the spirits, for some of them were not of God.

 

[Helen]

@amadeus Good post....I think we are for sure kindred spirits on many things and levels John...
As we both know, there a few things we differ on...but I think on the main we see , and have experienced similar experiences in the Lord. Amen!

Sometimes when we/I write posts I am pretty sure no one understands what I am saying....even when you and I don't see eye to eye...at least we understand what we are each saying....for the most part.

 

[Helen]

If Jesus warned about hell more than anyone else, it's something to take very serious.

#23 Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

#23 Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

Don't follow.
You say OSAS negates Jesus' warning of hell and eternal judgment?

Jesus was not speaking to a saved church.
He was speaking to Jews who needed to repent, for the Kingdom of God was near.
Since these people were never filled with the Spirit of God, OSAS had no meaning to them.
The prophets of God of old, they were filled with the Spirit of God, I bet they knew they were saved.

 

[Taken]

Can God rescue a soul from hell?

Actually, Jesus fulfilled being First to leave Hell, that the saved souls waiting, in hell, could thereafter depart hell and go to Heaven, where they now wait, until the Son of man descends from Heaven to the Clouds, calls up their bodys from the graves to be glorified.

Can God "rescue" (aka Save) a soul from hell, that chose to Stand in thier mortal life, Without God...Against God?

No. The Lord cannot not Lie.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins:
For if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Forgiveness is given to a Mortal Living man, who Believes in his Naturally Living Heart and Is Forgiven.

Dead men know nothing, to decide to believe in their Dead Heart, After they are Mortally Dead....Void of their own Bodily Life, which was their own Blood.
Nothing in Scripture reveals Mortally Dead men receive Forgiveness.
Without Forgiveness, there is no provision for Saving of their soul.


God Bless,
Taken

 

[DPMartin]

God may have approved of David, but did David believe in Christ? Was he free of sin? And what about those “spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah” (1 Peter 3:19). Why should Christ bother to preach to them if not to give these evil dead a chance for repentance?





Really? Jesus demands that His followers do away with the law of retaliation that is expressed in “an eye for an Eye”. Instead He calls on us to turn the other cheek, love our enemies and to offer continuous forgiveness for those who sinned against us. When in the Sermon on the Mount He tells us: “Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect.“ (Matthew 5:48), this implies that God’s perfection is outlined in that very Sermon. Surely God would not ask more forgiveness of us than what He is capable and willing to give. Quite the contrary: His forgiveness is perfect. So no, I don't think we have to expect “the same in return” from Him. As seen in the very person of Christ, God’s answer to human sin is transforming grace.

what does that got to do with the time is now to be saved from hell and since when is your picture show a reference to scripture? are you telling use you believe what you want, no matter what scripture says?

 

[junobet]

what does that got to do with the time is now to be saved from hell and since when is your picture show a reference to scripture? are you telling use you believe what you want, no matter what scripture says?

Apparently I did not make myself clear enough when I gave you the connection with the verse. So please let me try again:

Ephesians 4:9 and 1 Peter 3:18-19 tell us that Christ went under the earth, to the realm of the dead and preached to the dead. Why would He do that if there was no chance for the “imprisoned spirits” to come to repentance and He might as well have spoken to a wall? How come every knee should bow to Him under the earth (Philippians 2:10), when the dead can’t bow their knees?

If this helps: assuming that the realm of the dead is well beyond our time and space, Christ’s preaching to the dead may as well be yesterday, now or tomorrow. So in any case the time to repent is now. What we probably both agree on is that the sooner we repent and return from our wicked ways the better (which imho is exactly what “the time is now” means to express, both now and back in the days when Jesus walked the earth and called people to repentance.)

What I don’t quite understand is why you accuse me of believing what I want, no matter what scripture says, when you yourself have not yet gone to great length to back up your view with scripture. Where do you think the Bible says that there is no chance for repentance for the dead? What it does tell us concerning salvation is that “with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26), and you think He could not rescue anybody from hell if He wanted to? Maybe your strong beliefs in this point aren’t guided by scripture so much, but by deeply ingrained tradition?


P.S.: my picture has always referred to scripture in one way over the other. My former avatar showed the dove above the waters that symbolizes the Holy Spirit. I always liked that picture because it carries with it all that hope that must have filled Noah when he got that twig + it reminded me to pray for spiritual guidance. Alas, when I re-entered this forum after almost a year’s absence, that picture was gone and - being a dumbo when it comes to tech - I couldn’t find it anymore. So I chose this one instead. This place looked as if could need a reminder of that command.