Can We Honor Jesus Christ Through His Mother Mary? a debate

[Marymog]

Louis De Montfort also quoted ~ “three steps to climb to go to God: the first, which is the nearest to us, and the most suited to our capacity, is Mary; the second is Jesus Christ; and the third is God the Father. To go to Jesus, we must go to Mary; she is our mediatrix of intercession.”

I do not take much too much stock in theological discussions/debates on subjects like this because it's mostly based on personal opinion. What the bible teaches holds much more credibility for me.

1 Timothy 25 tells me that ~ For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
John 14:6 Jesus answered ~ “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
In Romans 8:34, Paul tells us ~ Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Hebrews 9:15 ~ For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 12:23 ~ to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

It seems to me that If Mary was to be an intercessor on behalf of all people, she would have to be a sinless sacrifice [and the bible tells us that all have sinned, till Christ's death and resurrection on our behalf] and she would have to die for the forgiveness of the sins of the people. This was not in God's fore-ordained plan for her life. Jm :9qcrib:

I guess one needs to know you describe "mediator"?

http://biblehub.com/greek/3316.htm

Based on the definition provided in the link above I, Mary, can be a mediator or interceder for you, Angelina by praying for you and talking to you about God and salvation. If I bring you away from sin and to God (or back to God) thru my prayers to God then I have mediated. :wub:

Maybe your point is she can't be a mediator since she is dead?

All have not sinned. I have three beautiful children and I am pretty sure they didn't sin for several years after they were born. <_<

Can we hold the mentally challenged accountable to sin when they know not what they do?

My two cents worth....

 

[epostle1]

Dave(kepha31) said:

"All that we have said here helps us know about Mary. But knowing about Mary is simply a stepping-stone to knowing Mary. And knowing Mary is immeasurably more important than knowing about Mary since she takes us right to Jesus.
Our fellow pilgrims can help us in knowing about Mary. But only we can know Mary. So it is time to take the plunge. The Consecration to Jesus Through Mary is the gateway to a personal relationship with Mary that deepens and consolidates our relationship with Jesus.
source mariology.com not available on line"

The question you posed is: Can we honor Jesus Christ through his mother Mary?

I can't do that for two reasons:

1. I reject the authority of the Catholic Church, and the doctrine of the immaculate conception. The Mary your church teaches is not the Mary that the Bible teaches.

2. I don't want a "personal relationship with Mary".

And this should be understandable to the Catholics on this web-site, as it is a Protestant site, and most of them do reject your church's infallible teachings, so I wonder how there can be any meaningful debate on this subject.

1.The Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception hinges on Luke 1:28. I have posted on it several times. What the CC teaches about Mary is in the Bible, and the CC's teachings develop without changing the biblical essence. Nothing is harder to open than a closed mind.

2. I don't want a "personal relationship with Mary". is your choice, but it is a false dichotomy, which I explained in the OP. I never said anyone had to have a personal relationship with Mary, what I am trying to explain is how it deepens and enriches a personal relationship with Jesus, but you must assume everyone else knows Jesus better than Mary and she has nothing to offer us. See post #10. You are still clinging to the standard Protestant falsehoods about what Catholicism teaches about Mary.

What is rejected by Protestants are caricatures, not the realities. And you are out of touch with the teachings of your own reformers, as are all Protestants who object to the most basic Marian teachings.

 

[epostle1]

Norman Geisler wrote:
Indeed, she [Mary] even presented an offering to the Jewish priest arising out of her sinful condition (Luke 2:22-24) which was required by law (Lev. 12). This would not have been necessary if she were sinless. (p. 310)
The problem with this argument is that Jesus, Whom all Christians agree was sinless and perfectly holy, also underwent the ritual of John’s baptism, that was presented as remitting sin (just as later Christian baptism is described in Scripture):
Matthew 3:6, Matthew 11:13-15
Mark 1:4-5, Mark 1:9
Luke 3:3, Luke 3:21
Therefore, if Jesus could be baptized by John: an act that was recognized as forgiving sins repented of, yet be without sin, Mary could also present an offering to the priest (understood as atoning for sin), yet be without sin.

Likewise, Jesus observed the Jewish feasts (John 5:1; John 7:14, John 7:37) most of which involved animal sacrifices that atoned for sin (Leviticus 5:9, Leviticus 12; 9:7; Leviticus 16:25; 2 Chronicles 29:24, etc.), and casually referred to the presentation of gifts to the altar, in teaching His followers (Mattew 5:23-24). Thus, He participated in rituals that presupposed sinfulness on the part of those who participated, bringing an animal or grain-offering to atone for their sins. Yet He was without sin.
Last of all, He observed the Passover (John 2:13; 12:1), and indeed the Last Supper was a Passover ceremony (Mt 26:17, 19; Lk 22:8; Jn 13:1): which involved animal sacrifice. Jesus’ own death continued this theme, which had been an instance of “types and shadows”: as He was the “Lamb of God” (Jn 1:29, 36; Is 53:7; Rev 5:6, 8, 12-13; 7:9-10, 14, 17; many other instances in Revelation). He was to be the sacrifice for our sins (Heb 9:12), rather than animals (Heb 10:4). Yet He had observed Passover, even though without sin.
Therefore, by analogy, Mary’s participation in Jewish rituals does not at all prove that she sinned, since we know that Jesus was sinless, and participated in all of them.
Thus, Geisler’s argument here utterly fails.

BVM INDEX PAGE

 

[mjrhealth]

Based on the definition provided in the link above I, Mary, can be a mediator or interceder for you, Angelina by praying for you and talking to you about God and salvation. If I bring you away from sin and to God (or back to God) thru my prayers to God then I have mediated. :wub:

Maybe your point is she can't be a mediator since she is dead?

Why on earth do christians need mediators when they have Jesus, teh Holy Spirit who is given to all who believe which gives us direct access to God, Or more the pint why are so many christians afraid of asking God, It sound so much like this , excuse me mum can you ask dad if I can have a lolly, i asked him and he said no... Jesssh, christianity has made a mockery of God for so long it sound more like

Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Seems teh more people they put between them and Him teh happer they are, God and Jesus are not enough lets add moree....

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Maybe there is just no faith to be found

Agggghhhhhhhhh

 

[epostle1]

Why on earth do christians need mediators when they have Jesus, teh Holy Spirit who is given to all who believe which gives us direct access to God, Or more the pint why are so many christians afraid of asking God, It sound so much like this , excuse me mum can you ask dad if I can have a lolly, i asked him and he said no... Jesssh, christianity has made a mockery of God for so long it sound more like

Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Seems teh more people they put between them and Him teh happer they are, God and Jesus are not enough lets add moree....

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Maybe there is just no faith to be found

Agggghhhhhhhhh

None of your quotes have anything to do with intercession or subordinate mediator-ship.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Define "temple". Was Mary's womb a temple where the Lord dwelt for 9 months? Or is every believer a temple except her?

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

According to you, seeking the prayers of the righteous is a waste of time. The Catholic and biblical teaching isn’t that Jesus won’t listen to rotten sinners; rather, it is that prayers of those who have attained a higher level of righteousness will have more power (per the above).

Of course, this biblical view isn’t possible when one takes the unbiblical position that there is no differential righteousness, and we’re all sinners to exactly the same degree; even good works are “filthy rags,” etc.
A straightforward reading of the Bible, including this passage, would suggest otherwise.

What does James 5:16 mean? You tell me. I think a straightforward reading suggests that there is such a thing as a righteous person, and that his or her prayers are more powerful.

As to levels of righteousness, that is clearly the implication of the very notion of sanctification. That we can attain to a higher level of less sin and more holiness is so self-evident from the Bible that it is not even necessary to give proof texts (but here’s one: 2 Tim 4:6-8).

Related to this are the differential rewards in heaven which are taught in the Bible (e.g., Matt 16:27, Mk 9:41, 1 Cor 3:10-15, 2 Cor 9:6, Heb 10:35).

Now, of course, most (but not all) Protestants will separate sanctification from justification, but that doesn’t overcome the difficulty here. It still is a biblical reality, however it is related to soteriology or salvation. We can become more sanctified. And the more sanctified we become, the more effective our prayers are, according to James.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2005/06/prayer-of-righteous-man-availeth-much.html

 

[mjrhealth]

And why Kepha are you all so afraid of Jesus, What is it about Him that causes you all to put as many people between you and Him as possible,

1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

If Jesus is not enough for you now He will not be enough for you in death, Salvation is in Him alone not Mary, and how can talking to Mary bring you any closer to Jesus than talking to Him (jesus) Himself.

Oh teh foolishness of mens wisodm and religions.

 

[Mungo]

And why Kepha are you all so afraid of Jesus, What is it about Him that causes you all to put as many people between you and Him as possible,

1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

If Jesus is not enough for you now He will not be enough for you in death, Salvation is in Him alone not Mary, and how can talking to Mary bring you any closer to Jesus than talking to Him (jesus) Himself.

Oh teh foolishness of mens wisodm and religions.

Catholics prefer the fullness of Christ to your shrunken version.

 

[mjrhealth]

Catholics prefer the fullness of Christ to your shrunken version.

How can Christ Himself not be the Fullness of Himself, How can that which is complete not be finished, How can being with Jesus not be close enough?? Such foolishnesss

 

[tabletalk]

How can Christ Himself not be the Fullness of Himself, How can that which is complete not be finished, How can being with Jesus not be close enough?? Such foolishnesss

Because the Catholic Church teaches you only have Christ in a limited sense; you are a "separated brethren". Your church (if you attend one) is not a valid church. Your church's sacraments are not valid. Your Pastor has no authority.

I guess you know all that, and I agree with you: if you are in Christ, then the first 14 verses of Ephesians says what you are: "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. predestined us to adoption. accepted in the Beloved. redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. inheritance. sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

That is the fullness of Christ, which believers have right now.

 

[Josho]

Well what ever our opinion of Mary is, we gotta remember she has appeared to both Christians and Catholics in dreams, there was this one where Mary appeared to a Christian in a dream, and showed this person how to decorate a ceiling in a certain room in a Church, this was like a small prayer room, and I'm sure there are many other cases of Mary mother of Jesus being used as a messenger, to send messages from God, in dreams and visions. As debatable as this topic is, the fact is there, the supernatural is there, and the Holy Spirit, can use many ways to communicate with us, as Christians we really need to open our eyes to the supernatural more, I'm sure a lot of us may read our bible heaps, but it's not the amount of reading that counts, it's the relationship with the Holy Spirit that counts, we need to see the supernatural more, the revelations he showed to John, the prophecies given to Isaiah, Ezekiel, Joel, the burning bush Moses saw, these are not things of the past, we can still see these things through the power of the Holy Spirit today. I don't know why so many Christians try and avoid the supernatural, if you get a dream with Mary in it and you believe it's from God, then great!!! Write it down! Tell it to others if you feel led to do so, or even take action if you are shown to do something. We cannot be too skeptical here, I can imagine how many things Christians miss out on from God from being skeptical. God can speak in many ways, whether if it's through a donkey, through Mary or through an angel, there's no limit to the amount of different ways he can speak to people in.

I personally believe Jesus Christ deserves the highest honor, but it does not mean we cannot honor Mary, for obvious reasons, I'm sure we have a certain degree of honor for some of the great men and women of God, and we are also told to honor our mother and father, I'm sure most of us also honor our grandpa and grandma, so what's wrong with honoring Mary? She stuck by Jesus's side, she honored Jesus, and God simply honors her back for that.

 

[mjrhealth]

No because

Rev_19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

and

Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

why do christians insist on stealing Gods glory from Him and sharing ir with others. None of deserve that on Jesus. Ther is only one found worthy and it is none us us or Her.

 

[Mungo]

How can Christ Himself not be the Fullness of Himself, How can that which is complete not be finished, How can being with Jesus not be close enough?? Such foolishnesss

See what tabletalk says. Plus I would focus on Eph 1:22-23
"he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all."

The Church which is his body is the fullness of Christ.
If you reject the Church, which is Christ's body (and which you seem to do) then you are decapitating Christ, separating him from his body.

Mary is part of the body of Christ, indeed we consider he the mother of the Church, as Christ gave her to be the mother of the beloved disciple at the cross, the disciple who represents us all who are beloved of Christ.

 

[Mungo]

No because

Rev_19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

and

Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

why do christians insist on stealing Gods glory from Him and sharing ir with others. None of deserve that on Jesus. Ther is only one found worthy and it is none us us or Her.

No-one steals God's glory from Him.
No-one worships' Mary.

You invent straw men arguments.

 

[Marymog]

Why on earth do christians need mediators when they have Jesus, teh Holy Spirit who is given to all who believe which gives us direct access to God, Or more the pint why are so many christians afraid of asking God, It sound so much like this , excuse me mum can you ask dad if I can have a lolly, i asked him and he said no... Jesssh, christianity has made a mockery of God for so long it sound more like

Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Seems teh more people they put between them and Him teh happer they are, God and Jesus are not enough lets add moree....

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Maybe there is just no faith to be found

Agggghhhhhhhhh

Dear mjrhealth,

Please don't take this the wrong way: I don't understand what you just wrote since it is confusing to me therefor I can't respond to it.

God bless....Mary

PS...I accidentally pushed that arrow up button on your confusing post which i think means i approve of what you said. I don't know how to rescind it.

 

[mjrhealth]

The Church which is his body is the fullness of Christ.
If you reject the Church, which is Christ's body (and which you seem to do) then you are decapitating Christ, separating him from his body.

But you see, Christians have Jesus as teh head of His ."ecclesia" we could get into what that means

The Church which is his body is the fullness of Christ.
If you reject the Church, which is Christ's body (and which you seem to do) then you are decapitating Christ, separating him from his body.

But you have teh Pope as teh head of yours,.. Whats His title.


(Latin Vicarius Christi).
A title of the pope implying his supreme and universal primacy, both of honour and of jurisdiction, over the Church of Christ.

Given to Him by men not God,

Literally means " in place of Christ:. As I said you replaced Jesus. There is not one single man made church upon teh face of this earth that is His, because His Ecclesia is made up of living stones with Christ as at teh head and there is in one else worthy of that posotion.

Mary is part of the body of Christ, indeed we consider he the mother of the Church, as Christ gave her to be the mother of the beloved disciple at the cross, the disciple who represents us all who are beloved of Christ.

Your church maybe not His, and what has your churches doctrines got to do with Him

Still undermining Him as that is all you can do.

As for strawmen the ysupposed to keep teh bad man away, obviously not working.. Or was that crows????

 

[Mungo]

But you see, Christians have Jesus as teh head of His ."ecclesia" we could get into what that means

The Church which is his body is the fullness of Christ.
If you reject the Church, which is Christ's body (and which you seem to do) then you are decapitating Christ, separating him from his body.

But you have teh Pope as teh head of yours,.. Whats His title.


(Latin Vicarius Christi).
A title of the pope implying his supreme and universal primacy, both of honour and of jurisdiction, over the Church of Christ.

Given to Him by men not God,

Literally means " in place of Christ:. As I said you replaced Jesus. There is not one single man made church upon teh face of this earth that is His, because His Ecclesia is made up of living stones with Christ as at teh head and there is in one else worthy of that posotion.

Your church maybe not His, and what has your churches doctrines got to do with Him

Still undermining Him as that is all you can do.

As for strawmen the ysupposed to keep teh bad man away, obviously not working.. Or was that crows????

As usual you try and sidetrack onto another topic.

The fact is that if you ignore Christ's body - the Church - you do not have the fullness of Christ.
That is very clear from the quote I gave - Eph 1:22-23
"he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all."

You are separating Christ from his body and rejecting the fullness of Christ.

You reject Mary who is part of the body of Christ, the one chosen by God from all eternity to bear his Son. God honoured Mary above all other women in history, but you reject honouring her.

[SIZE=11pt]“For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed”[/SIZE], said Mary, but apparently not you.

 

[tabletalk]

Mungo said:

"You reject Mary who is part of the body of Christ, the one chosen by God from all eternity to bear his Son. God honoured Mary above all other women in history, but you reject honouring her."

I'm sure your church has many "proofs" that Mary was honored above all other women in history, but these 2 Bible verses indicate she is blessed among women, not above them.

Luke 1:28
And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”


Luke 1:42
Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

 

[Mungo]

Mungo said:

"You reject Mary who is part of the body of Christ, the one chosen by God from all eternity to bear his Son. God honoured Mary above all other women in history, but you reject honouring her."

I'm sure your church has many "proofs" that Mary was honored above all other women in history, but these 2 Bible verses indicate she is blessed among women, not above them.

Luke 1:28
And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

What other woman did God honour by choosing her to be the mother of his Son?
Or do you think it was not an honour to be chosen by God to bear his Son?

And Luke 1:28 is
And he came to her and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!"

Luke 1:42
Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

That's interesting. Are you suggesting that Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, declared that Mary was as equally blessed as Jesus?

 

[epostle1]

Define "above women". I've never seen that term before. It looks like a non-sequitur fallacy to escape the plain meaning of Scripture that she is blessed among women. I would paraphrase to say Mary is blessed among all the women that ever lived or will live. It can't possibly mean that she is blessed only among the women alive during her life.

Luke 1:28
And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”


Luke 1:42
Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

“Blessed are you among women..." is called hyperdulia, special honor given to Mary by an angel.
"blessed is the fruit of your womb!" is called latria, worship given only to God.
Dulia is honor given to humans.
Dulia and hyperdulia are essentially the same thing (honor to humans),
but latria is for worship of God alone.
Hyperdulia, dulia and latria are not the same, and many Protestants are unwilling or incapable of making these distinctions.

 

[mjrhealth]

As usual you try and sidetrack onto another topic.

The fact is that if you ignore Christ's body - the Church - you do not have the fullness of Christ.
That is very clear from the quote I gave - Eph 1:22-23
"he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all."

You are separating Christ from his body and rejecting the fullness of Christ.

You reject Mary who is part of the body of Christ, the one chosen by God from all eternity to bear his Son. God honoured Mary above all other women in history, but you reject honouring her.

[SIZE=11pt]“For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed”[/SIZE], said Mary, but apparently not you.

Reject Christ body, no just mens religions has nothing to do with Christs body. One is a memeber of Christ Body when He/she becomes a christian, not when the yjoin a religion, Your a learned mnan, you should know that.

Rejcting Mary, Jesssh clutching at starws now are we not. No I jsu7t dont give her ant mre respect than teh,

Prophets of old tha tdied for speaking out,
Teh christians that where murdered by teh Jews for Keeping His word
The Christians that where killed by teh romans in there circuses
Teh thousands of Jews and christians that died during teh curades for again keeping His word
Teh thousands of christians and Jews that died at teh hand of teh "church: in teh dark ages and teh Inqusition.

Mary had her part as we all do, doesnt deserve any more respect than those who died for Keeping His word.

I have asked Jesus for years to show me anothe rway if tehre was oner. Never has because there isnt. All those overheads do nothing to add anything to ones salvation. Makes that what is clear, as clear as mud.

Have fun