Can We Honor Jesus Christ Through His Mother Mary? a debate

[Mungo]

Reject Christ body, no just mens religions has nothing to do with Christs body. One is a memeber of Christ Body when He/she becomes a christian, not when the yjoin a religion, Your a learned mnan, you should know that.

Rejcting Mary, Jesssh clutching at starws now are we not. No I jsu7t dont give her ant mre respect than teh,

Prophets of old tha tdied for speaking out,
Teh christians that where murdered by teh Jews for Keeping His word
The Christians that where killed by teh romans in there circuses
Teh thousands of Jews and christians that died during teh curades for again keeping His word
Teh thousands of christians and Jews that died at teh hand of teh "church: in teh dark ages and teh Inqusition.

Mary had her part as we all do, doesnt deserve any more respect than those who died for Keeping His word.

I have asked Jesus for years to show me anothe rway if tehre was oner. Never has because there isnt. All those overheads do nothing to add anything to ones salvation. Makes that what is clear, as clear as mud.

Have fun

Untrue - like much of what you post. You should learn some real history.

 

[mjrhealth]

Untrue - like much of what you post. You should learn some real history.

For what reason would one need to raise one up on a pedestal if not to worship them. A pedestal is used to raise one up to a higher place than another. We are all equal in Gods eyes

WHat did jesus say about

For you it shall not be

or in teh desert

Mat_4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

So why is it you deny Christ to keep your churches doctrines????

 

[Mungo]

For what reason would one need to raise one up on a pedestal if not to worship them. A pedestal is used to raise one up to a higher place than another. We are all equal in Gods eyes

WHat did jesus say about

For you it shall not be

or in teh desert

Mat_4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

So why is it you deny Christ to keep your churches doctrines????

We give Mary the honour that is due to her. We do not worship her.

 

[mjrhealth]

We give Mary the honour that is due to her. We do not worship her.

WHat honour

Joh 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
Joh 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Jesus certainly didnt give her any more.

 

[tabletalk]

Kepha31 said: Define "above women". I've never seen that term before. It looks like a non-sequitur fallacy to escape the plain meaning of Scripture that she is blessed among women."

Mungo is the one who used the term "above women"; direct your correction to him.

 

[Mungo]

WHat honour

Joh 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
Joh 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Jesus certainly didnt give her any more.

Are you seriously suggesting that Jesus broke the Commandment to honour his mother?
"Honor your father and your mother" (Ex 20:12).

Perhaps you should read the Bible a little less shallowly
Jesus deferred to his mother did what she asked.

The Hebrew phrase "what have I to do with thee" was a sign of respect or deferment. Jesus was not opposing Mary, he complied with her request and she knew he would. “what have I to do with thee” was Jesus deferring to Mary who just told the servants Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it

Take other examples of this phrase, of unclean spirits deferring to Jesus:
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gerasenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? (Mt 8:28-29, Lk 8:28, Mk 5:7)

And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God. (Mk 1:23-24, Lk 4:34)

 

[epostle1]

Kepha31 said: Define "above women". I've never seen that term before. It looks like a non-sequitur fallacy to escape the plain meaning of Scripture that she is blessed among women."

Mungo is the one who used the term "above women"; direct your correction to him.

Maybe the error is mine. The term "above women" still doesn't elevate Mary beyond being a human being. It's semantics and I regret stepping into it.

 

[epostle1]

Are you seriously suggesting that Jesus broke the Commandment to honour his mother?
"Honor your father and your mother" (Ex 20:12).

Perhaps you should read the Bible a little less shallowly
Jesus deferred to his mother did what she asked.

The Hebrew phrase "what have I to do with thee" was a sign of respect or deferment. Jesus was not opposing Mary, he complied with her request and she knew he would. “what have I to do with thee” was Jesus deferring to Mary who just told the servants Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it

Take other examples of this phrase, of unclean spirits deferring to Jesus:
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gerasenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? (Mt 8:28-29, Lk 8:28, Mk 5:7)

And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God. (Mk 1:23-24, Lk 4:34)

Good post. John 2:4 fails as a standard Protestant "gotcha" verse because they apply a literal interpretation to a Hebrew idiom. Some Bible translations make the same mistake. It means deference to authority as your examples clearly show. This is not the only place in Scripture where Mary bashers "prove" something at Jesus' expense.

 

[Mungo]

Maybe the error is mine. The term "above women" still doesn't elevate Mary beyond being a human being. It's semantics and I regret stepping into it.

What I actually said was
"God honoured Mary above all other women in history".
I wasn't quoting from scripture.

 

[epostle1]

What I actually said was
"God honoured Mary above all other women in history".
I wasn't quoting from scripture.

What? Do you mean God doesn't send an archangel to each individual female believer to honor them equally? (That's absurdum nauseum, a literary device.) You weren't quoting scripture, but the meaning is strongly inferred in Scripture. "blessed are you among women" doesn't require a Ph.D. in theology to see that "God honored Mary above all other women in history". It makes the Mary bashers squirm so they ignore it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

For what reason would one need to raise one up on a pedestal if not to worship them. A pedestal is used to raise one up to a higher place than another. We are all equal in Gods eyes
WHat did jesus say about
For you it shall not be
or in teh desert
Mat_4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

So why is it you deny Christ to keep your churches doctrines????

I raise my mom on a pedestal out of sheer love and honor (Exod. 20:12).

Do I "worship" her?
NOPE.

So much for your moronic anti-Catholic drivel . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

WHat honour

Joh 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
Joh 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Jesus certainly didnt give her any more.

So, you're saying that Jesus sinned against by NOT honoring His mother??
It is blasphemy to say that Jesus sinned.

Why did Jesus always refer to His Mother as "Woman"??
It was out of HONOR.

Anti-Catholic bigots like yourself point to this as "proof" that there was nothing special about Mary or that Jesus didn’t hold her in very high regard. This couldn’t be further from the truth. This correlates directly to the Woman in Gen. 3:15 and in Rev. 12.

Jesus defeats death on Calvary (Skull place) and fulfills the prophecy in Gen. 3:15 about the offspring of the "Woman". Mary is present at the foot of the cross while this is happening - and what does Jesus call her in John 19:26? He calls her “WOMAN”, because the prophecy about the head of the serpent being crushed in Genesis is taking place right there on Calvary.

 

[mjrhealth]

So, you're saying that Jesus sinned against by NOT honoring His mother??
It is blasphemy to say that Jesus sinned.

Oh so throwing mud into teh fight are we, Jesus honoured Hs mother as any man would just not like you who have put her on a pedestal, and things on pedestals are usually idols. All you do is eek justification to idolise Her and hse does not deserve that,

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

She is one of us not better or worse.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

The topic of "we honor Jesus Christ through Mary" is the debate.

One question to those that practice this is why wasn't this taught in any of the epistles to the early churches in the New Testament? Could it be that there were scripture deferring from doing so? There is.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

So when they stop honoring the Son to honor Mary, they are no longer honoring the Father. Believe it or, the same applies to the Holy Spirit, because He is sent to dwell within us to lead us to honor & glorify the Son as well, but I digress.

Those that wish to contend this point, shuld give pause to these other scriptural references were Jesus deferred believers from honoring His mother ( and it was because the judgment from God is to only honor the Son if one wishes to honor God the Father. )

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

That was Jesus deferring that woman from honoring His mother. Those that hear the Word of God ( that's Jesus by the way see Hebrews 4:12-16 ) and keep it by only honoring the Son in honoring God the Father in worship.

Another deference by Jesus about honoring His mother or giving place to her is found here also when every female doing the will of God can be His sister or His mother.

Matthew 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

So that is why the early church in the New Testament never taught to honor Mary in order to please God, because Jesus deferred believers from doing that when it is the will of God and the judgment of God for every believer to honor God the Father by only honoring the Son.

When Catholics ( not all Catholics do this ) honor Mary by calling her the Queen of Heaven, they are actually dishonoring her because the title "Queen of Heaven" identifies with an iniquity that Israel had participated in the past in sinning against God so there is no way Mary would be pleased with any one giving her that title.

Jeremiah 7:18The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

The actual verse regarding Mary in relations to other women says...

Luke 1:28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.......42And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

So that is an entirely different meaning than Mary being blessed above women. No believer can say that is what is actually meant as being above women when Jesus got through placing every female believer doing the will of God as His mother.

So if any one wants to honor Jesus.... then honor Jesus. You cannot honor God the Father by any one else except by honoring Jesus. That is what the Father desires and what His will is.... so those who hear the Word of God and do it, are blessed.

 

[mjrhealth]

The topic of "we honor Jesus Christ through Mary" is the debate.

Nice post

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh so throwing mud into teh fight are we, Jesus honoured Hs mother as any man would just not like you who have put her on a pedestal, and things on pedestals are usually idols. All you do is eek justification to idolise Her and hse does not deserve that,

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

She is one of us not better or worse.

Really?

Are YOU "Kecharitomene"?? Were you perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace before you were born??
I didn't think so . . .

As for your ridiculous misuse of Rev. 22:80-9 - John fell down in WORSHIP before the angel.
Simply bowing before someone doesn't mean worship. 1 Kings 2:19-20 tells us that Solomon bowed down to the ground before his mother and set up a throne for her.
Was Solomon "worshipping" his mother??

What ignorant nonsense . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

The topic of "we honor Jesus Christ through Mary" is the debate.

One question to those that practice this is why wasn't this taught in any of the epistles to the early churches in the New Testament? Could it be that there were scripture deferring from doing so? There is.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

So when they stop honoring the Son to honor Mary, they are no longer honoring the Father. Believe it or, the same applies to the Holy Spirit, because He is sent to dwell within us to lead us to honor & glorify the Son as well, but I digress.

Those that wish to contend this point, shuld give pause to these other scriptural references were Jesus deferred believers from honoring His mother ( and it was because the judgment from God is to only honor the Son if one wishes to honor God the Father. )

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

That was Jesus deferring that woman from honoring His mother. Those that hear the Word of God ( that's Jesus by the way see Hebrews 4:12-16 ) and keep it by only honoring the Son in honoring God the Father in worship.

Another deference by Jesus about honoring His mother or giving place to her is found here also when every female doing the will of God can be His sister or His mother.

Matthew 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

So that is why the early church in the New Testament never taught to honor Mary in order to please God, because Jesus deferred believers from doing that when it is the will of God and the judgment of God for every believer to honor God the Father by only honoring the Son.

When Catholics ( not all Catholics do this ) honor Mary by calling her the Queen of Heaven, they are actually dishonoring her because the title "Queen of Heaven" identifies with an iniquity that Israel had participated in the past in sinning against God so there is no way Mary would be pleased with any one giving her that title.

Jeremiah 7:18The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

The actual verse regarding Mary in relations to other women says...

Luke 1:28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.......42And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

So that is an entirely different meaning than Mary being blessed above women. No believer can say that is what is actually meant as being above women when Jesus got through placing every female believer doing the will of God as His mother.

So if any one wants to honor Jesus.... then honor Jesus. You cannot honor God the Father by any one else except by honoring Jesus. That is what the Father desires and what His will is.... so those who hear the Word of God and do it, are blessed

This is a typical non-Catholic understanding of the Scriptures.
Unfortunately - it misses the point in several places.

First of all - when Jesus told the woman in Matt. 12:48-50, He wasn't downplaying His other's importance or her holiness.
He was telling the woman that THEY should be as obedient as Mary was because she heard the will of God and DID it.

Secondly, you erroneously point to John 5:22 to indicate that we shouldn't honor ANYBODY but Jesus -= and that is patently anti-biblical.
God commands us to "HONOR" our parents (Exod. 21:12). In 1 Tim. 5:17, Paul states that Presbyters are worthy of "DOUBLE HONOR" and to give it to them.

Honoring Mary does NOT take anything "away" from her Son.

Thirdly, you indicate that there is nothing special about Mary and that she is merely called blessed "among" women.
However, you completely left out the title given her by God in Luke 1:28.

The Greek word is kecharitomene that Luke used in his Gospel (v.1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. Thus it translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” Kecharitomene is not a mere description here. It is used as a title.
The Angel didn’t say, “Hail Mary, full of grace.” He said, "Hail, Kecharitomene."

Finally - to imply that we "worship" Mary or anybody or anything other than God - is simply an exercise in dishonest anti-Catholicism.

 

[mjrhealth]

her holiness.

Holiness, she was a woman born of a woman. Holiness indeed. She was born of teh same sinfull flesh as all men are she was no better than anyone, It is you who keeps putting her on a pedestal, Not God, not Jesus. Lots of people in this world, men and women are called by God for special puroposes, why are you not praising all of them.??

Churches doctirnes all it is.

 

[mjrhealth]

Really?

Are YOU "Kecharitomene"?? Were you perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace before you were born??
I didn't think so . . .

As for your ridiculous misuse of Rev. 22:80-9 - John fell down in WORSHIP before the angel.
Simply bowing before someone doesn't mean worship. 1 Kings 2:19-20 tells us that Solomon bowed down to the ground before his mother and set up a throne for her.
Was Solomon "worshipping" his mother??

What ignorant nonsense .

For one who doesnt worship her you spend much of your trying to justify your reasoning for doing so.

Luk 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

Seems even she didnt want to be praised by men.

And you know why she would not want to be praised as you do her,? Because she being a women of God would not want to be, and none of those who are His would, Something you cant understand.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all. not saying anyone here is right or wrong, but consider this. Mary was not the biological mother of our Lord and Saviour Jesus/Yeshua the Christ. Mary was only the surrogate mother to the Christ. notice how I said that. because there is no where in the bible, stating that the Lord Jesus emanated from Mary. let me be clear, the Lord Jesus did not "emanate" from Mary, but Mary was only the birth mother or the surrogate mother to the Christ. with that said, again, my answer to the question is a resounding NO.