Can You Lose Your Salvation ?

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7angels

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Not how my Bible reads. Even though for readability the KJV translators added the phrase "it were" in Matt.24:24, the idea is the same in the Greek. 'Insomuch that IF possible' = 'Insomuch that IF it were possible'. The Greek "if" (ei) is about a condition per the grammar. I don't like the NIV in many areas, but it got the context correct on that part of the verse...
Matt 24:24-25
24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect-if that were possible.
NIV

The idea? Not possible for Christ's elect to be deceived by that deception. And that's also what Christ promised those of the Church of Philadelphia also, that He would keep them from the "hour of temptation" because they kept The Word of His patience (Rev.3). So what you just said there fell flat on its face. Old Testament history is plentiful with examples of how God preserved His elect Seed of the woman that Christ was to be born through, even when God's enemies appeared to have the upper-hand over them.

sso now you are the one who changes the meaning of scripture. matt 24:24-25 shows us it is possible or it would not be stated that way. just because it is doubtful does not make it impossible(mark 13:20 proves my point). and other meaning is going against what the scriptures teach. rev 3:10 is referring to the great tribulation and not to every test and trial. it is by tests and trials that we grow.

now i see we have a miscommunication of who God's elect are. from the strong's #1586 the meaning of elect is
1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

all of us who are saved are God's elect.

You're in a gross state of confusion with that idea above. It's not even worthy of me commenting on, reason being, that if Jesus could be tempted then it would mean He is not The Son of God. Read Luke 4. You'll see how the devil TRIED to tempt Him, but did not succeed. To be tempted means to succumb to the temptation and thus the tempter.

do you know what the meaning of tempted is? luke 4:2 says Jesus was tempted. For (during) forty days in the wilderness (desert), where He was tempted ([sup][a][/sup]tried, tested exceedingly) by the devil. so here again you go against scripture. tempted means mean to allure or entice to something unwise or wicked. it does not mean you have to succumb to the temptation.

I've heard stories of some preachers saying Jesus told them what house or car to buy, things like that. Most likely Christ never told those any such thing. Hirelings have to do something to try to sound authentic, since they aren't given to understand God's Word and God did not call them.

if you honestly believe this then you understand very little about the Holy Spirit. this is a teaching in and of itself to get into here.

What I'm talking about is more simple. God has an election He ordained to serve in The Gospel, and then He called others to 'hear' The Gospel through their preaching. Christ made a distinction between those two groups in John 17.

Yes, and who won that argument? God did, even had Jonah spit upon the shores of Nineveh. Jonah wised to die, but God DIRECTLY INTERVENED. And that's the point. Otherwise, why doesn't God directly intervene with all of us who have believed on Him and His Son like He did with His elect Old Testament servants? Point really is, everyone today wants to think they are one of God's chosen election, like His chosen sent ones through Bible history. That thinking is a sign of today's Socialist thinking, the Liberalism-Equality thing in failing to recognize God's Authority through those whom He chose to lead us. For those of us 'called' only, we must overcome in Christ and not fall away in order to be joined with His elect as one Body.

like i said if you honestly believe this then you do not have the revelation of the Holy Spirit leading you.

John 17:18-21
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
(KJV)


do you not know who God is talking about here? read the context of john and you will see that Jesus is talking about those that he shared the good news with and have accepted his teaching. and here Jesus goes on to pray for his own to the Father. it is not just the 12 disciples that this chapter is talking about but all people that have come to believe in him.
.
Like I said, some refuse to recognize God's Authority in the matter of His choosing His elect vs. those of us who are 'called' only.

God bless
 

neophyte

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God bless

You're correct, let's hope God does bless us because we all are in need of His blessings besides His shed Blood , because rather you believe it or not God will punish you or me if we do not keep are union with Him not only by word but by deed [1Tim 5: 8 ] You run the risk of eternal punishment unless you repent : " The Lord Jesus ...... will come from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire, to inflict punishment on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ " [ 2nd Thess. 1: 7-8 ]

"To be ignorant of Scripture is To be ignorant of Christ " St. Jerome
 

7angels

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Sounds a bit like you're out in left field somewhere. The concept of God's election goes all the way back to God's Garden of Eden with the Seed of the woman prophecy in Genesis 3. Even in Ephesians 2 Paul declared about God's elect being chosen before the foundation of this world, and in Rom.9 with what he said about Jacob and Esau, that seals the evidence even the more. So did that mean everyone in the early Church during the Apostles days were chosen elect? No, and it's easy to grasp that with Christ's 7 Messages to the 7 Churches in Asia, specifically with 5 of them that had some bad problems going on, most likely caused by a 'crept in unaware' (one of the devil's servants). What that actually reveals with those 5 Churches that were having problems is that those were in a the state of falling away from Christ because of failing to recognize influence by Christ's enemies.

it now sounds like you have changed where you have come from in your previous post. please tell me your definition of God's elect. now is sounds like you are referring to God's elect as being the overcoming christians in Christ. if this is the case then you are correct in some of your views but wrong in others. because there were no overcoming christians in the old testament. that did not come about until the new testament. now i would like to know if samson was considered one of God's elect? because he was totally deceived willfully almost his whole life.

Rev 2:12-15
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith He Which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast My name, and hast not denied My faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus revealed that location of the Church of Pergamos was surrounded by His enemies, and one of His servants (Antipas) was even martyred among them by the devil's followers in that area. Mostly like there were some of the devil's servants that had crept in there which were responsible for the evils going on with some believers at that Church. When wickedness creeps into Christ's Body, we can be assured it does not occur all by itself, especially if Christ has a 'chosen' overseer present in the Body given to discern such things like Apostle Paul was able. The last two verses in bold reveals a presence there by some of the 'crept in unawares'.

i don't see how all this speaks about being called or chosen by God. these problems get into many churches but that does not stop God from choosing people from these places and using them as his chosen vessels. if having no sin were required in order to be a chosen elect of God then not even paul would of made it. so how does these verses from revelations prove your point?

God bless
 

neophyte

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Judgment day is also made for you . Show me from the Bible where on Judgment day you will be guaranteed eternal bliss .
 

rainbows

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[background=#fff]rainbows, you make up your own religion, don't you, ,certainly not from Jesus, sometimes Scripture speaks of believers possessing eternal life now, but it also talks about it as something in the future.
When eternal life is described as a present possession of Christians, this is an example of what theologians call "realized eschatology." This means that Christians participate now in a limited way in what they will experience more fully in the Kingdom of God to come. It doesn't necessarily imply those who have so partaken of the Kingdom and its gifts can't be lost (Heb 3:14; 6:4-6).
The Bible speaks of eternal life as something future (Mt 19:29; Mk 9:43-47; Ti 1:2; 3:7; Jude 21) and based upon our fidelity, by God's grace, to his commandments (Mt 19:16-17; 25:46; Jn 3:36; Rom 2:6-10; 1 Tm 6:18-19; Jas 1:12; 2 Tm 2:12).
The Bible records in many places extensive lists of sins whereby we can deny Christ, such as 1 Corinthians 6:9-10: "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, etc. Scripture never says the saved can do these things and still go to heaven.
Maybe you're not aware but confessing Christ is done not only in' word' but also needs to be done in deed, to take action, such as :" If any one does not provide for his relatives .......... has disown the faith and is worse than an "unbeliever" [ 1 Tim 5: 8 ] [/background]

I must protest neophyte regarding your first line.

The scripture is the final authority on all matters of faith.

I have no religion or denominational affinity.

Jesus Christ is the only name given under Heaven by
which we can be saved.

I do agree with the rest of your post though.

I see OSAS as linked to a person's understanding of election
in Christ. I probably was too vague in my post, alas I will
try again after some more thought.

Thanks for the reply anyway.
 

veteran

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The Scriptures are clear: When Christ comes again, it will be His second and final coming at the end of the world. On this “last day” and at this “hour,” Christ will judge the living and the dead. The righteous will be raised to eternal life, and the unrighteous will be raised to judgment and eternal punishment.Nothing more nothing added. Your last two verses mean nothing connected to Christ's Apostolic Church because its docrines are protected by the promise of Jesus . Matt 16:18, 28:20 ] the Apostolic /Catholic Church [ Eph. 2: 19-20 ] taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition [ 2 Tim 2:2 ] and it teaches that there are both "good and bad " members in His CCatholic/Apostolic Church [ John 6: 70 ] and not all the members would go to heaven [ Matt. 7: 21-23 ].

What you've chosen to follow is a doctrine of men which denies the future "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect kings and priests per Revelation 20, which is pretty much what men's doctrines of Preterism is about, and why it is a false doctrine from men.

As written in Rev.20, God's Great White Throne Judgment and casting of the wicked, hell, and death into the "lake of fire" does not occur until that "thousand years" reign is over.

Some good answers to the question on
Romans 8:29-30.

Scripture contains the signature of God.

Scripture is the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Scripture explains the reconciliatian of mankind
to God through Jesus Christ.

To fully understand this reconciliation and the process
of reconciliation one requires the Holy Spirit.

OSAS is "a" theological position derived from an
understanding of the scripture.

Is OSAS contained in the scripture?

Is OSAS a doctrine of theology or is it a doctrine contained
in the revelation of Jesus Christ to humanity?

I chose Romans 8:29-30 because it is famous in traditional theology.

Some hold that Romans 8:29 is the election of God's chosen (singular).

Hence, OSAS is a natural derivative of God's soveriegn choice.

Another group hold to the idea that OSAS is simply a result
of God's Grace, after all we are a warped image unable
to respond fully to the call of Jesus. If the response of man
to the Gospel was necessary, man would fail. God's plan of
reconciliation would fail.

Finaly, another group of Christians will reject the above and
emphasis the endurance and the reliance on the Holy Spirit.
Running the race according to the rules.

So this riddle reduces simply to the understanding of election
itself and how God implements this election.

Is the election singular, or corporate, first of all.

If election is singular then OSAS is solid, no cracks.

If election is corporate then OSAS may not be a stable
construction.

What is election in Christ, singular or corporate?

Did Jesus choose you, or did Jesus choose the Gentiles?


What Paul declared about God's elect in Romans 8 is about those whom God chose before the foundation of this world, and it includes only those in Christ Jesus that 'overcome' like Jesus said in Revelation. It will not include all believers, for some will become apostate and fall away (per 2 Thess.2). That's why our Lord Jesus and His Apostles continually gave warning to Christ's Body to remain sober and on watch to not be deceived. That's not for those who are chosen elect that cannot fall away.

it now sounds like you have changed where you have come from in your previous post. please tell me your definition of God's elect. now is sounds like you are referring to God's elect as being the overcoming christians in Christ. if this is the case then you are correct in some of your views but wrong in others. because there were no overcoming christians in the old testament. that did not come about until the new testament. now i would like to know if samson was considered one of God's elect? because he was totally deceived willfully almost his whole life.

Once again, I admonish you to study our Lord's prayer in John 17 which has to do with 2 specific groups of believers there, the first being His chosen 'sent' ones, and the second group being those who would come to believe by their word (preaching). Jesus prayed that both... groups would together become one in Him and The Father. The Biblical idea of one being 'sent' into this world by Christ is where the Greek basis for the word 'apostle' is derived. Are all 'apostles' in Christ's Body? No.

As for the matter of overcomers in Old Testament history, see what Paul said in Hebrews 11 about the Faith of those in Old Testament times. The fact that what Lord Jesus said in Matt.8:11 about the saved in His Kingdom coming to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in His future Kingdom points to what? In Luke 16 with the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus reveals Abraham's bosom as where the righteous go in Paradise, which reveals what about Abraham? At the end of John 8 Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see His Day, and saw it, and was glad, which reveals what about Abraham? In Galatians 3 and Romans 4, Paul taught that the same promise by Faith Abraham believed is the same Promise of Jesus Christ we have believed, which reveals what about Abraham's Faith in relation to the Christian believer? And remember, our Lord Jesus gave Matt.8:11 about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in His future Kingdom prior to His death on the cross. Some preachers in the Churches simply don't understand the Power of God in that respect, and teach absolutist oddities (doctrines of men) that deny those kind of revelations that are written in God's Word. I could keep going with more Bible examples like that, even with king David being shown in relation to Christ's future Kingdom (see Ezek.37).

Even with Christ's Apostles per Luke 22:28-30 Jesus already 'appointed' to them a kingdom in the future when they will sit upon 12 thrones judging the twelve tribes of israel, which is the specific giving of rewards in His future Kingdom. Know anyone else living today already given such a specific reward like His Apostles? Even in Rev.21:14 with the future Holy City foundation, their names are going to be written in them, and He did not include IF one overcomes conditions with them about that like He did with us. So there's ample evidence in Scripture about the idea of a 'chosen' 'sent' election of God like Christ's Apostles which does not apply to all believers. Instead what is taught in most Churches about the rewards in Christ's coming Kingdom to the saints? It's most often taught that we all... will have the exact same rewards. That's not really what God's Word reveals though (see Matt.20:20-23 about the petition by the mother of Zebedee's two sons).


i don't see how all this speaks about being called or chosen by God. these problems get into many churches but that does not stop God from choosing people from these places and using them as his chosen vessels. if having no sin were required in order to be a chosen elect of God then not even paul would of made it. so how does these verses from revelations prove your point?

God bless

My point about Pergamos was how they had allowed... enemies of Christ to creep in, which means what about their ability to recognize Christ's enemies? In Christ's parable of the sower, what do you think the fowls, stones, and thorns represent that must be cleared away in order to produce much fruit in Christ Jesus? (that was first covered in the Old Testament Books).
 

rainbows

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Hello Veteran.

You replied to my post with the following;

"What Paul declared about God's elect in Romans 8 is about those whom God chose before the foundation of this world, and it includes only those in Christ Jesus that 'overcome' like Jesus said in Revelation. It will not include all believers, for some will become apostate and fall away (per 2 Thess.2). That's why our Lord Jesus and His Apostles continually gave warning to Christ's Body to remain sober and on watch to not be deceived. That's not for those who are chosen elect that cannot fall away."

I highlighted the line in your answer that I disagree with.

I will reprint the verse in question.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called,
He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

You do see that there are are a number of ways of reading these verses.
I will paraphrase the possibilities.

1) For (the Jews) whom He previously had chosen (known), He predestined to .....
This is the contextual rendering, see Romans 11:2.

2) For (the Gentiles) God knew before time began also predestined the process of
conformity to Jesus.

3) For the (Jew and Gentile)..............

4) For (each of the chosen) God...........
Number 4) is your choice veteran.

I personally favor number 1) which Paul verifies
in Romans 11:2.

I never see God choosing any individual as such that
would be favoritism, God does not show favoritism.
Hence, I prefer the corporate version, it is more
compliant with the rest of scripture. Context is
king in the scriptures.
 

veteran

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Hello Veteran.

You replied to my post with the following;

"What Paul declared about God's elect in Romans 8 is about those whom God chose before the foundation of this world, and it includes only those in Christ Jesus that 'overcome' like Jesus said in Revelation. It will not include all believers, for some will become apostate and fall away (per 2 Thess.2). That's why our Lord Jesus and His Apostles continually gave warning to Christ's Body to remain sober and on watch to not be deceived. That's not for those who are chosen elect that cannot fall away."

I highlighted the line in your answer that I disagree with.

I will reprint the verse in question.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called,
He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

You do see that there are are a number of ways of reading these verses.
I will paraphrase the possibilities.

1) For (the Jews) whom He previously had chosen (known), He predestined to .....
This is the contextual rendering, see Romans 11:2.

2) For (the Gentiles) God knew before time began also predestined the process of
conformity to Jesus.

3) For the (Jew and Gentile)..............

4) For (each of the chosen) God...........
Number 4) is your choice veteran.

I personally favor number 1) which Paul verifies
in Romans 11:2.

I never see God choosing any individual as such that
would be favoritism, God does not show favoritism.
Hence, I prefer the corporate version, it is more
compliant with the rest of scripture. Context is
king in the scriptures.

God is no respecter of persons, as written. So there's other matters connected with the idea of His electing certain ones. The Rom.11:1-5 Scripture is undeniable about His electing certain ones, even prior to Christ's first coming to die on the cross. And surely I don't need to go through all the Old Testament histories about His choosing an election.

All must choose The Saviour to become His elect. But the deeper question is, just when was it that those like His Apostles chose to believe on Him, especially with the example of Apostle Paul? His chosen elect, like Paul, the other Apostles, the OT patriarchs and prophets all point to God directly intervening to cause them to believe and follow Him. Surely you understand He does not do that with all who have believed.


Rom 9:10-18
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For He saith to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God That sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.
(KJV)

That is very important to understand, and reveals why it's not ours to judge any of the wicked of this world to condemnation.

See, if you truly... believe God is no respecter of persons, then you must reconcile this matter of His chosen election affecting their own will, especially with those like Apostle Paul who was converted directly by Christ Jesus while in the very process of persecuting His Church. The Jacob and Esau example is an even greater example, since God's electing of Jacob happened even prior to his birth in Rebecca's womb. Trying to apply a blanket election idea on the seed of Israel isn't enough, for it's obvious this kind of event was happenning long before even Jacob (Israel) was born.
 

rainbows

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God is no respecter of persons, as written. So there's other matters connected with the idea of His electing certain ones. The Rom.11:1-5 Scripture is undeniable about His electing certain ones, even prior to Christ's first coming to die on the cross. And surely I don't need to go through all the Old Testament histories about His choosing an election.

All must choose The Saviour to become His elect. But the deeper question is, just when was it that those like His Apostles chose to believe on Him, especially with the example of Apostle Paul? His chosen elect, like Paul, the other Apostles, the OT patriarchs and prophets all point to God directly intervening to cause them to believe and follow Him. Surely you understand He does not do that with all who have believed.


Rom 9:10-18
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For He saith to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God That sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.
(KJV)

That is very important to understand, and reveals why it's not ours to judge any of the wicked of this world to condemnation.

See, if you truly... believe God is no respecter of persons, then you must reconcile this matter of His chosen election affecting their own will, especially with those like Apostle Paul who was converted directly by Christ Jesus while in the very process of persecuting His Church. The Jacob and Esau example is an even greater example, since God's electing of Jacob happened even prior to his birth in Rebecca's womb. Trying to apply a blanket election idea on the seed of Israel isn't enough, for it's obvious this kind of event was happenning long before even Jacob (Israel) was born.

Hello veteran hope you are well, nice to recieve feedback.

This is a fascinating subject, one I am most interested in.

Before I start my reply I would like to make one point clear.

I do not necessarily disagree with your interpretation!

There are certain individuals, very few I might add
that fall into the category of chosen as far as God's
redemptive plan is concerned.

One example is Paul, what conversion?, Paul was
given the instruction set. Preach to the Gentiles,
"woe is me if I do not". Paul was untimely born,
an example of God's mercy, a chosen apostle.

God does harden and soften, your example
involves the plan of reconciliation in the long
term.

God's selective choice extends only within
that framework, the plan. This deals with
Jacob and Esau. Further, John the baptist
was specifically chosen as the forerunner
of Christ. Jesus said anyone who believes
is greater than he.

We Gentiles are given the Gospel to respond to,
we are not specifically chosen. Otherwise, and the
scripture cannot be broken God would be displaying
favoritism. It is not God's wish that any perish but
all....

Your view point must align with all scripture.

Mine does.

God predestined all Gentiles to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Paul's great revelation was that Jews and Gentiles were all
eligible through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We must be very careful how we understand the full
revelation of Jesus Christ. The Gospel message is for all
to hear and submit, not some chosen minority. That is
not why Jesus died on the cross.
 

aspen

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lost-salvation.jpg

Here, mister! You dropped this. Do you want it back?

Losing salvation... if you "lost" it that means you never really had it to begin with. You might have played with it as a dog with a toy, but you never REALLY possesed salvation.

salvation is not a possession.
 

7angels

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What you've chosen to follow is a doctrine of men which denies the future "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect kings and priests per Revelation 20, which is pretty much what men's doctrines of Preterism is about, and why it is a false doctrine from men.

As written in Rev.20, God's Great White Throne Judgment and casting of the wicked, hell, and death into the "lake of fire" does not occur until that "thousand years" reign is over.

i have started to look into this portion of the word which shows us whether or not those that are in the millennium are all those saved or if the unsaved are the ones that are outside the holy city. the question i keep asking myself is why would God reward the unsaved by putting them in the millennium at all? what if what is actually happening is the the overcomers in Christ are those that serve and obey the word and anyone else not an overcomer in Christ are those that are just saved get put out of the holy city and live there. this theory sounds more in line with God's character then believing that sinners will surround
the holy city. i am still looking for scripture to back up all my points but the theory is scriptural so far that i have researched it.

What Paul declared about God's elect in Romans 8 is about those whom God chose before the foundation of this world, and it includes only those in Christ Jesus that 'overcome' like Jesus said in Revelation. It will not include all believers, for some will become apostate and fall away (per 2 Thess.2). That's why our Lord Jesus and His Apostles continually gave warning to Christ's Body to remain sober and on watch to not be deceived. That's not for those who are chosen elect that cannot fall away.

you are talking about is being justified by works. that is unscriptural. not being able to fall away puts the elect in the osas category which is also unscriptural. if we do not have the choice to refuse or reject Christ at any time then we do not have a free will anymore but become robots. that is what you are essentially saying about the elect of God which is unscriptual too.

Once again, I admonish you to study our Lord's prayer in John 17 which has to do with 2 specific groups of believers there, the first being His chosen 'sent' ones, and the second group being those who would come to believe by their word (preaching). Jesus prayed that both... groups would together become one in Him and The Father. The Biblical idea of one being 'sent' into this world by Christ is where the Greek basis for the word 'apostle' is derived. Are all 'apostles' in Christ's Body? No.


the Lord is praying to every believer throughout the whole chapter. chapter 17 starts like he is just referring to those that are alive with him but verse 20 says Neither for these alone do I pray [it is not for their sake only that I make this request], but also for all those who will ever come to believe in (trust in, cling to, rely on) Me through their word and teaching, this verse shows us that God is not referring to 2 different groups but that Jesus is referring to those believers present and those to come. verse 20 is just showing us that Jesus is not separating the 2 but including them all together.

are we all apostles? that depends upon how we look at it. the meaning of apostle is a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders. Jesus gave us all the command of the Great commission. which makes us all apostles. now if you are referring to apostle as one of the 5 fold ministry then yes you are right that not everyone is an apostle.

As for the matter of overcomers in Old Testament history, see what Paul said in Hebrews 11 about the Faith of those in Old Testament times. The fact that what Lord Jesus said in Matt.8:11 about the saved in His Kingdom coming to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in His future Kingdom points to what? In Luke 16 with the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus reveals Abraham's bosom as where the righteous go in Paradise, which reveals what about Abraham? At the end of John 8 Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see His Day, and saw it, and was glad, which reveals what about Abraham? In Galatians 3 and Romans 4, Paul taught that the same promise by Faith Abraham believed is the same Promise of Jesus Christ we have believed, which reveals what about Abraham's Faith in relation to the Christian believer? And remember, our Lord Jesus gave Matt.8:11 about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in His future Kingdom prior to His death on the cross. Some preachers in the Churches simply don't understand the Power of God in that respect, and teach absolutist oddities (doctrines of men) that deny those kind of revelations that are written in God's Word. I could keep going with more Bible examples like that, even with king David being shown in relation to Christ's future Kingdom (see Ezek.37).

now i said overcomers in Christ. the people of the old testament were under a different covenant then we are today. they are an example of how we in the new testament are to copy or avoid. the old testament is a type and shadow of what was to come in the new testament. the new testament explains the old testament. i can see where a person could get confused about this. we have what very few in the old testament have ever had. we have the Holy Spirit within us, more exactly we have the trinity within us which no old testament person i know can claim. i have all authority of the Godhead themselves which no old testament person i know ever had. i have been given the power and authority to forgive sins which no person of the old testament had and i could go on and on with the differences. at least this has never happened in the old testament to my knowledge. the word teaches in matt 11:11 and luke 7:28 show us that there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. any person in the church(which is also referred to as the kingdom of heaven) is greater then john the baptist who was of the old testament. this shows us that there is a difference. i would of thought john the baptist was one of the greatest in the new testament gospels but according to this scripture that just is not true. so if john the baptist who was born of a woman and that there was no greater man then him and he is counted as least behind those of the church shows you the standing of old testament people according to the new covenant.

Even with Christ's Apostles per Luke 22:28-30 Jesus already 'appointed' to them a kingdom in the future when they will sit upon 12 thrones judging the twelve tribes of israel, which is the specific giving of rewards in His future Kingdom. Know anyone else living today already given such a specific reward like His Apostles? Even in Rev.21:14 with the future Holy City foundation, their names are going to be written in them, and He did not include IF one overcomes conditions with them about that like He did with us. So there's ample evidence in Scripture about the idea of a 'chosen' 'sent' election of God like Christ's Apostles which does not apply to all believers. Instead what is taught in most Churches about the rewards in Christ's coming Kingdom to the saints? It's most often taught that we all... will have the exact same rewards. That's not really what God's Word reveals though (see Matt.20:20-23 about the petition by the mother of Zebedee's two sons).

you have the part about the rewards correct. each person will receive rewards based upon his service and devotion. i don't know about you but having my name written on a wall or in the floor in the future Holy city foundation is not what i am looking for when i get to heaven. if God wants to honor me in that way then who am i to disagree but that is not what i am doing this for. now you still have not told me how you determine who is a chosen one or elect of God? if you define it as what they will accomplish then you are wrong because then they will be chosen by their works and that is unscriptural. saying a chosen one cannot be led astray is false to because then you are saying is that the elect or chosen of God are OSAS(ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED) which is a concept you so soundly refute and disagree with.

My point about Pergamos was how they had allowed... enemies of Christ to creep in, which means what about their ability to recognize Christ's enemies? In Christ's parable of the sower, what do you think the fowls, stones, and thorns represent that must be cleared away in order to produce much fruit in Christ Jesus? (that was first covered in the Old Testament Books).


first let me say that to my knowledge no one has gotten their heart truly pure and sinless. also we can be hard hearted in one area and soft hearted in another. what i am asking is do you have a soft heart in every area of your life? even paul was not that perfect. so why are we judging others when we ourselves are not there yet?

God bless
 

logabe

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Hello veteran hope you are well, nice to recieve feedback.

This is a fascinating subject, one I am most interested in.

Before I start my reply I would like to make one point clear.

I do not necessarily disagree with your interpretation!

There are certain individuals, very few I might add
that fall into the category of chosen as far as God's
redemptive plan is concerned.

One example is Paul, what conversion?, Paul was
given the instruction set. Preach to the Gentiles,
"woe is me if I do not". Paul was untimely born,
an example of God's mercy, a chosen apostle.

God does harden and soften, your example
involves the plan of reconciliation in the long
term.

God's selective choice extends only within
that framework, the plan. This deals with
Jacob and Esau. Further, John the baptist
was specifically chosen as the forerunner
of Christ. Jesus said anyone who believes
is greater than he.

We Gentiles are given the Gospel to respond to,
we are not specifically chosen. Otherwise, and the
scripture cannot be broken God would be displaying
favoritism. It is not God's wish that any perish but
all....

Your view point must align with all scripture.

Mine does.

God predestined all Gentiles to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Paul's great revelation was that Jews and Gentiles were all
eligible through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We must be very careful how we understand the full
revelation of Jesus Christ. The Gospel message is for all
to hear and submit, not some chosen minority. That is
not why Jesus died on the cross.


Many are called whether you are Jew, Israelite, or from another nation (gentile).
God isn't interested in genetics, He is interested in your character. In order to be
chosen you have to go through Pentecost (trials for the purpose of learning the
art of obedience), where in the end God looks @ your heart and determines the
chosen status of an individual.

I agree with Rainbow, " we are not specifically chosen", but God chooses us by
the level of our dedication and diligents, because He knows how much grace He
has bestowed upon each person that has been called. God will have a chosen
people, but it will be according to their heart, not their genetics.

Here's a quote from Jones:

So when Paul says that the elect are qualified and “the rest were blinded” (Rom.
11:7), he is essentially telling us that the majority of believers are disqualified,
not as citizens, but as priests of God (end quote).

In other words, everybody can't be priest, only the ones that have a desire to
become a priest in the Tabernacles Age to come. God calls us at Passover and He
chooses us @ the end of Pentecost (which is the life you live after you believe on
Jesus Christ and receive the Holy Ghost). This present life is designed to qualify
the believer as an Overcomer, so he/she can inherit the Tabernacles Age as a Royal
Priesthood (Rev. 20: 5-6). That' left up to the individual... choose this day whom
you will serve.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

7angels

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God is no respecter of persons, as written. So there's other matters connected with the idea of His electing certain ones. The Rom.11:1-5 Scripture is undeniable about His electing certain ones, even prior to Christ's first coming to die on the cross. And surely I don't need to go through all the Old Testament histories about His choosing an election.

All must choose The Saviour to become His elect. But the deeper question is, just when was it that those like His Apostles chose to believe on Him, especially with the example of Apostle Paul? His chosen elect, like Paul, the other Apostles, the OT patriarchs and prophets all point to God directly intervening to cause them to believe and follow Him. Surely you understand He does not do that with all who have believed.


Rom 9:10-18
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For He saith to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God That sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.
(KJV)

That is very important to understand, and reveals why it's not ours to judge any of the wicked of this world to condemnation.

See, if you truly... believe God is no respecter of persons, then you must reconcile this matter of His chosen election affecting their own will, especially with those like Apostle Paul who was converted directly by Christ Jesus while in the very process of persecuting His Church. The Jacob and Esau example is an even greater example, since God's electing of Jacob happened even prior to his birth in Rebecca's womb. Trying to apply a blanket election idea on the seed of Israel isn't enough, for it's obvious this kind of event was happenning long before even Jacob (Israel) was born.

i understand where you are coming from but i disagree with your thinking again. if God is not a respecter of persons and does not favor one over another then what you say cannot be true. it is like a contradiction. we both know there is no such thing as a contradiction of the word so we must be missing something. i am not posting this to argue with you veteran but to open other peoples eyes to look into it for themselves. my pastor explained this reason to us at church and it come down to understanding the definitions of words and knowing the character of God.

veteran it is but your own words that i also doubt your understanding of the word. when you say "That is very important to understand, and reveals why it's not ours to judge any of the wicked of this world to condemnation". then you go ahead and do it anyways against scripture it makes me wonder. you do it all the time anytime someone disagrees with your understanding of the word of God. then you claim that we are all deceived and if someone keeps arguing with you and refuses to see things your way then you claim that we are not of God's kingdom but of satan's kingdom(my paraphrase not yours). i know of a guy that can quote the bible forwards and backwards but does not understand what he is quoting. i have seen similarities between the 2 of you. quoting scripture and understanding scripture are 2 totally different things.

it was once said that if you cannot explain a scripture so a child can understand then you don't understand the scripture very well yourself. so i suggest when you refute that you explain in detail please. i have shown already that you are vague in your answers and that makes it tough to understand where you are coming from. especially when you are so convinced you are right. i am not trying to criticize and i am sorry if you take it that way but i am just trying to speak the truth in love.

i will be praying for you veteran
God bless
 

neophyte

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Apr 25, 2012
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The Rapture




I apologize for the length of this article, but I want to show the Catholic understanding of "Rapture ", It is written by Catholic Answers staff




Are you Pre, Mid, or Post? If you don’t know how to answer that question, you’re probably a Catholic. Most Fundamentalists and Evangelicals know that these words are shorthand for pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and post-tribulation. The terms all refer to when the rapture is supposed to occur.

The Millennium


In Revelation 20:1–3, 7–8, we read, "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years were ended. After that he must be loosed for a little while. . . . And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth."
The period of a thousand years, the writer tells us, is the reign of Christ, and the thousand-year period is popularly called the millennium. The millennium is a harbinger of the end of the world, and Revelation 20 is interpreted in three ways by conservative Protestants. The three schools of thought are called postmillennialism, amillennialism, and premillennialism. Let’s take a look at them.

Postmillennialism


According to Loraine Boettner in his book The Millennium (he also wrote the seriously defective anti-Catholic book Roman Catholicism), postmillennialism is "that view of last things which holds that the kingdom of God is now being extended in the world through the preaching of the gospel and the saving work of the Holy Spirit, that the world eventually is to be Christianized, and that the return of Christ will occur at the close of a long period of righteousness and peace, commonly called the millennium."
This view was popular with nineteenth-century Protestants, when progress was expected even in religion and before twentieth-century horrors were tasted. Today few hold to it, except such groups as Christian Reconstructionists, an outgrowth of the conservative Presbyterian movement.
Commentators point out that postmillennialism is to be distinguished from the view of theological and secular liberals who envision social betterment and even the kingdom of God coming through purely natural, rather than supernatural, means. Postmillennialists, however, argue that man is incapable of building a paradise for himself; paradise will only come about by God’s grace.
Postmillennialists also typically say that the millennium spoken of in Revelation 20 should be understood figuratively and that the phrase "a thousand years" refers not to a fixed period of ten centuries, but to an indefinitely long time. For example, Psalm 50:10 speaks of God’s sovereignty over all that is and tells us that God owns "the cattle on a thousand hills." This is not meant to be taken literally.
At the millennium’s end will come the Second Coming, the general resurrection of the dead, and the last judgment.
The problem with postmillennialism is that Scripture does not depict the world as experiencing a
period of complete (or relatively complete) Christianization before the Second Coming. There are numerous passages that speak of the age between the First and Second Comings as a time of great sorrow and strife for Christians. One revealing passage is the parable of the wheat and the weeds (Matt. 13:24–30, 36–43). In this parable, Christ declares that the righteous and the wicked will both be planted and grow alongside each other in God’s field ("the field is the world," Matt. 13:38) until the end of the world, when they will be separated, judged, and either be thrown into the fire of hell or inherit God’s kingdom (Matt. 13:41–43). There is no biblical evidence that the world will eventually become totally (or even almost totally) Christian, but rather that there will always be a parallel development of the righteous and the wicked until the final judgment.


Amillennialism


The amillennial view interprets Revelation 20 symbolically and sees the millennium not as an earthly golden age in which the world will be totally Christianized, but as the present period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on the earth through his Church. This was the view of the Protestant Reformers and is still the most common view among traditional Protestants, though not among most of the newer Evangelical and Fundamentalist groups.
Amillennialists also believe in the coexistence of good and evil on earth until the end. The tension that exists on earth between the righteous and the wicked will be resolved only by Christ’s return at the end of time. The golden age of the millennium is instead the heavenly reign of Christ with the saints, in which the Church on earth participates to some degree, though not in the glorious way it will at the Second Coming.
Amillennialists point out that the thrones of the saints who reign with Christ during the millennium appear to be set in heaven (Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4, 11:16) and that the text nowhere states that Christ is on earth during this reign with the saints.
They explain that, although the world will never be fully Christianized until the Second Coming, the millennium does have effects on earth in that Satan is bound in such a way that he cannot deceive the nations by hindering the preaching of the gospel (Rev. 20:3). They point out that Jesus spoke of the necessity of "binding the strong man" (Satan) in order to plunder his house by rescuing people from his grip (Matt. 12:29). When the disciples returned from a tour of preaching the gospel, rejoicing at how demons were subject to them, Jesus declared, "I saw Satan fall like lightning" (Luke 10:18). Thus for the gospel to move forward at all in the world, it is necessary for Satan to be bound in one sense, even if he may still be active in attacking individuals (1 Pet. 5:8).
The millennium is a golden age not when compared to the glories of the age to come, but in comparison to all prior ages of human history, in which the world was swallowed in pagan darkness. Today, a third of the human race is Christian and even more than that have repudiated pagan idols and embraced the worship of the God of Abraham.

Premillennialism


Third on the list is premillennialism, currently the most popular among Fundamentalists and Evangelicals (though a century ago amillennialism was). Most of the books written about the End Times, such as Hal Lindsey’s Late Great Planet Earth, are written from a premillennial perspective.
Like postmillennialists, premillennialists believe that the thousand years is an earthly golden age during which the world will be thoroughly Christianized. Unlike postmillennialists, they believe that it will occur after the Second Coming rather than before, so that Christ reigns physically on earth during the millennium. They believe that the Final Judgment will occur only after the millennium is over (which many interpret to be an exactly one thousand year period).
But Scripture does not support the idea of a thousand year span between the Second Coming and the Final Judgment. Christ declares, "For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done" (Matt. 16:27), and "[w]hen the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. . . . And they [the goats] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:31–32, 46).

The Rapture


Premillennialists often give much attention to the doctrine of the rapture. According to this doctrine, when Christ returns, all of the elect who have died will be raised and transformed into a glorious state, along with the living elect, and then be caught up to be with Christ. The key text referring to the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, which states, "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."
Premillennialists hold, as do virtually all Christians (except certain postmillennialists), that the Second Coming will be preceded by a time of great trouble and persecution of God’s people (2 Thess. 2:1–4). This period is often called the tribulation. Until the nineteenth century, all Christians agreed that the rapture—though it was not called that at the time—would occur immediately before the Second Coming, at the close of the period of persecution. This position is today called the "post-tribulational" view because it says the rapture will come after the tribulation.
But in the 1800s, some began to claim that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism. Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bibleuncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history.
Eventually, a third position developed, known as the "mid-tribulational" view, which claims that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. Finally, a fourth view developed that claims that there will not be a single rapture where all believers are gathered to Christ, but that there will be a series of mini-raptures that occur at different times with respect to the tribulation.
This confusion has caused the movement to split into bitterly opposed camps.
The problem with all of the positions (except the historic, post-tribulational view, which was accepted by all Christians, including non-premillennialists) is that they split the Second Coming into different events. In the case of the pre-trib view, Christ is thought to have three comings—one when he was born in Bethlehem, one when he returns for the rapture at the tribulation’s beginning, and one at tribulation’s end, when he establishes the millennium. This three-comings view is foreign to Scripture.
Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote: "Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. The score is 3 to 0, three passages for a post-tribulational rapture and three that say nothing on the subject.
. . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it" (The Word of Truth, 556–7).


What’s the Catholic Position?


As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.
With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).

Spinning Wheels?


Many spend much time looking for signs in the heavens and in the headlines. This is especially true of premillennialists, who anxiously await the tribulation because it will inaugurate the rapture and millennium.
A more balanced perspective is given by Peter, who writes, "But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. . . . Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace" (2 Pet. 3:8–14).

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004
IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004






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7angels

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Many are called whether you are Jew, Israelite, or from another nation (gentile).
God isn't interested in genetics, He is interested in your character. In order to be
chosen you have to go through Pentecost (trials for the purpose of learning the
art of obedience), where in the end God looks @ your heart and determines the
chosen status of an individual.

I agree with Rainbow, " we are not specifically chosen", but God chooses us by
the level of our dedication and diligents, because He knows how much grace He
has bestowed upon each person that has been called. God will have a chosen
people, but it will be according to their heart, not their genetics.

Here's a quote from Jones:

So when Paul says that the elect are qualified and “the rest were blinded” (Rom.
11:7), he is essentially telling us that the majority of believers are disqualified,
not as citizens, but as priests of God (end quote).

In other words, everybody can't be priest, only the ones that have a desire to
become a priest in the Tabernacles Age to come. God calls us at Passover and He
chooses us @ the end of Pentecost (which is the life you live after you believe on
Jesus Christ and receive the Holy Ghost). This present life is designed to qualify
the believer as an Overcomer, so he/she can inherit the Tabernacles Age as a Royal
Priesthood (Rev. 20: 5-6). That' left up to the individual... choose this day whom
you will serve.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

amen logabe. i agree with you 100% so far.

God bless
 

neophyte

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Apr 25, 2012
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amen logabe. i agree with you 100% so far.

God bless

I absolutely agree with Jesus and His Teachings only, because those Teachings as He Taught to only His Apostles contain the "Fullness of the Christian Faith '' If Jesus wanted us to absolutely depend 'only' on the Holy Bible as the 'sole rule of Faith' then He would have left us a Holy Bible. But Jesus never left us a Holy Bible ,He only left us His Authorative Apostolic Teaching Church. That very same Church later on selected the correct Canonical Books from a maze of different books and writings. It was those bishops of His Church, through the guidance of the HS that gave us the New Testament , now we have a complete Bible which is holy and contains the inerrant Word of God.For us to fully appreciate the Christian Faith as taught by Jesus we need both His Apostolic Teachings along with the Holy Bible.
 

veteran

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i understand where you are coming from but i disagree with your thinking again. if God is not a respecter of persons and does not favor one over another then what you say cannot be true. it is like a contradiction. we both know there is no such thing as a contradiction of the word so we must be missing something. i am not posting this to argue with you veteran but to open other peoples eyes to look into it for themselves. my pastor explained this reason to us at church and it come down to understanding the definitions of words and knowing the character of God.

You're starting... to understand now, because you've now recognized that the Scripture examples of God having chosen an election of some, even before their birth, or like with Apostle Paul, does cause a conflict with how God also said He is no respecter of persons. Even with what He said in Deuternomy 7:6 about His choosing of the nation of Israel to Himself above all other nations on earth causes that conflict. Yet there can be no... conflict between those two Scripture ideas, which means there is... "something" missing like you said. Not to dis your pastor, but there's more to it than just Scripture definitions and knowing God's character. With that kind of answer, I'm forced to say he doesn't really know the answer either.


veteran it is but your own words that i also doubt your understanding of the word. when you say "That is very important to understand, and reveals why it's not ours to judge any of the wicked of this world to condemnation". then you go ahead and do it anyways against scripture it makes me wonder. you do it all the time anytime someone disagrees with your understanding of the word of God.

You're mistaken, because I have not condemned any of the wicked at anytime, because condemnation is about judging a soul to perish in the lake of fire. Only Satan and his angels as of today are already judged and sentenced to perish. Warning others about that event is not the act of condemning them to it. None of us have that authority to condemn. And warning others of what holding to certain doctrines of men can lead to isn't that condemnation either. Christ's Apostles gave those kind of warnings a lot, to both the unbelieving and to believers. And now you're getting off the subject with going in this direction.


then you claim that we are all deceived and if someone keeps arguing with you and refuses to see things your way then you claim that we are not of God's kingdom but of satan's kingdom(my paraphrase not yours). i know of a guy that can quote the bible forwards and backwards but does not understand what he is quoting. i have seen similarities between the 2 of you. quoting scripture and understanding scripture are 2 totally different things.

I don't know where in the world you got that idea that "we are not of God's kingdom but of satans' kingdom". That's a terrible paraphrase, and not an accurate one at all, obviously something you've come up with in your own mind by some other influence. And that's a silly comparison with comparing me to someone that can just quote Bible Scripture and that's all. You're still off topic.

When I point to deception by others, it's about their following doctrines of men that are against even easy and simplly written Scripture truths. And I'm certainly not the only one here that does that pointing. Hopefully, it will get them to go back into God's Word to study for theirselves more, instead of just heeding what some pop organizational religious system of men tells them to believe. Today is probably one of the worst times of junk doctrines of men coming out of today's Christian seminaries (not all of them, but too many of them).


it was once said that if you cannot explain a scripture so a child can understand then you don't understand the scripture very well yourself. so i suggest when you refute that you explain in detail please. i have shown already that you are vague in your answers and that makes it tough to understand where you are coming from. especially when you are so convinced you are right. i am not trying to criticize and i am sorry if you take it that way but i am just trying to speak the truth in love.

God's written Word isn't that difficult to understand, and I think how I'm given to cover It is pretty darn easy, even as many brethren have personally said to me. But some of the deeper truths It covers even as simply written, even the matter of God's election of Jacob over Esau before they were born, it's that kind of simple 'concept' which is the difficult to understand matter for many. Not the written Word in simplicity, but what all God's Word is teaching us, that's where many have diffculty. That difficulty for many is because of listening to the fleshy mind instead, or to men's doctrines of this world, which creates a 'block' in the mind against the simplicity in God's Word.


i will be praying for you veteran
God bless

Prayer is always a good thing, thanks.
 

neophyte

Member
Apr 25, 2012
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You're starting... to understand now, because you've now recognized that the Scripture examples of God having chosen an election of some, even before their birth, or like with Apostle Paul, does cause a conflict with how God also said He is no respecter of persons. Even with what He said in Deuternomy 7:6 about His choosing of the nation of Israel to Himself above all other nations on earth causes that conflict. Yet there can be no... conflict between those two Scripture ideas, which means there is... "something" missing like you said. Not to dis your pastor, but there's more to it than just Scripture definitions and knowing God's character. With that kind of answer, I'm forced to say he doesn't really know the answer either.




You're mistaken, because I have not condemned any of the wicked at anytime, because condemnation is about judging a soul to perish in the lake of fire. Only Satan and his angels as of today are already judged and sentenced to perish. Warning others about that event is not the act of condemning them to it. None of us have that authority to condemn. And warning others of what holding to certain doctrines of men can lead to isn't that condemnation either. Christ's Apostles gave those kind of warnings a lot, to both the unbelieving and to believers. And now you're getting off the subject with going in this direction.




I don't know where in the world you got that idea that "we are not of God's kingdom but of satans' kingdom". That's a terrible paraphrase, and not an accurate one at all, obviously something you've come up with in your own mind by some other influence. And that's a silly comparison with comparing me to someone that can just quote Bible Scripture and that's all. You're still off topic.

When I point to deception by others, it's about their following doctrines of men that are against even easy and simplly written Scripture truths. And I'm certainly not the only one here that does that pointing. Hopefully, it will get them to go back into God's Word to study for theirselves more, instead of just heeding what some pop organizational religious system of men tells them to believe. Today is probably one of the worst times of junk doctrines of men coming out of today's Christian seminaries (not all of them, but too many of them).




God's written Word isn't that difficult to understand, and I think how I'm given to cover It is pretty darn easy, even as many brethren have personally said to me. But some of the deeper truths It covers even as simply written, even the matter of God's election of Jacob over Esau before they were born, it's that kind of simple 'concept' which is the difficult to understand matter for many. Not the written Word in simplicity, but what all God's Word is teaching us, that's where many have diffculty. That difficulty for many is because of listening to the fleshy mind instead, or to men's doctrines of this world, which creates a 'block' in the mind against the simplicity in God's Word.




Prayer is always a good thing, thanks.

Yes prayer is needed. First try praying to the Holy Spirit for the correct guidance.
 

xBluxTunicx82

New Member
Apr 6, 2012
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Veteran "God's written Word isn't that difficult to understand, and I think how I'm given to cover It is pretty darn easy, even as many brethren have personally said to me. But some of the deeper truths It covers even as simply written, even the matter of God's election of Jacob over Esau before they were born, it's that kind of simple 'concept' which is the difficult to understand matter for many. Not the written Word in simplicity, but what all God's Word is teaching us, that's where many have diffculty. That difficulty for many is because of listening to the fleshy mind instead, or to men's doctrines of this world, which creates a 'block' in the mind against the simplicity in God's Word."

Simplicity in Christ!!!

I agree with Veteran here. Some have been pre-selected as it were and are already sealed. Most, however, are open to whichever course they freely choose.
Matthew 24:24 "[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [/background]it were[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)] possible, they shall deceive the very elect." [/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]This is the remnant of true Israel that is awake, and not 'lost'.... straightforwardly, there are those that CANNOT be decieved, just as the Word says. But the deception will be so great that the rest of the world will fall prey to it.[/background]
 

veteran

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The Rapture




I apologize for the length of this article, but I want to show the Catholic understanding of "Rapture ", It is written by Catholic Answers staff




Are you Pre, Mid, or Post? If you don’t know how to answer that question, you’re probably a Catholic. Most Fundamentalists and Evangelicals know that these words are shorthand for pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and post-tribulation. The terms all refer to when the rapture is supposed to occur.

The Millennium

In Revelation 20:1–3, 7–8, we read, "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years were ended. After that he must be loosed for a little while. . . . And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth."
The period of a thousand years, the writer tells us, is the reign of Christ, and the thousand-year period is popularly called the millennium. The millennium is a harbinger of the end of the world, and Revelation 20 is interpreted in three ways by conservative Protestants. The three schools of thought are called postmillennialism, amillennialism, and premillennialism. Let’s take a look at them.

Postmillennialism

According to Loraine Boettner in his book The Millennium (he also wrote the seriously defective anti-Catholic book Roman Catholicism), postmillennialism is "that view of last things which holds that the kingdom of God is now being extended in the world through the preaching of the gospel and the saving work of the Holy Spirit, that the world eventually is to be Christianized, and that the return of Christ will occur at the close of a long period of righteousness and peace, commonly called the millennium."
This view was popular with nineteenth-century Protestants, when progress was expected even in religion and before twentieth-century horrors were tasted. Today few hold to it, except such groups as Christian Reconstructionists, an outgrowth of the conservative Presbyterian movement.
Commentators point out that postmillennialism is to be distinguished from the view of theological and secular liberals who envision social betterment and even the kingdom of God coming through purely natural, rather than supernatural, means. Postmillennialists, however, argue that man is incapable of building a paradise for himself; paradise will only come about by God’s grace.
Postmillennialists also typically say that the millennium spoken of in Revelation 20 should be understood figuratively and that the phrase "a thousand years" refers not to a fixed period of ten centuries, but to an indefinitely long time. For example, Psalm 50:10 speaks of God’s sovereignty over all that is and tells us that God owns "the cattle on a thousand hills." This is not meant to be taken literally.
At the millennium’s end will come the Second Coming, the general resurrection of the dead, and the last judgment.
The problem with postmillennialism is that Scripture does not depict the world as experiencing a
period of complete (or relatively complete) Christianization before the Second Coming. There are numerous passages that speak of the age between the First and Second Comings as a time of great sorrow and strife for Christians. One revealing passage is the parable of the wheat and the weeds (Matt. 13:24–30, 36–43). In this parable, Christ declares that the righteous and the wicked will both be planted and grow alongside each other in God’s field ("the field is the world," Matt. 13:38) until the end of the world, when they will be separated, judged, and either be thrown into the fire of hell or inherit God’s kingdom (Matt. 13:41–43). There is no biblical evidence that the world will eventually become totally (or even almost totally) Christian, but rather that there will always be a parallel development of the righteous and the wicked until the final judgment.


Amillennialism

The amillennial view interprets Revelation 20 symbolically and sees the millennium not as an earthly golden age in which the world will be totally Christianized, but as the present period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on the earth through his Church. This was the view of the Protestant Reformers and is still the most common view among traditional Protestants, though not among most of the newer Evangelical and Fundamentalist groups.
Amillennialists also believe in the coexistence of good and evil on earth until the end. The tension that exists on earth between the righteous and the wicked will be resolved only by Christ’s return at the end of time. The golden age of the millennium is instead the heavenly reign of Christ with the saints, in which the Church on earth participates to some degree, though not in the glorious way it will at the Second Coming.
Amillennialists point out that the thrones of the saints who reign with Christ during the millennium appear to be set in heaven (Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4, 11:16) and that the text nowhere states that Christ is on earth during this reign with the saints.
They explain that, although the world will never be fully Christianized until the Second Coming, the millennium does have effects on earth in that Satan is bound in such a way that he cannot deceive the nations by hindering the preaching of the gospel (Rev. 20:3). They point out that Jesus spoke of the necessity of "binding the strong man" (Satan) in order to plunder his house by rescuing people from his grip (Matt. 12:29). When the disciples returned from a tour of preaching the gospel, rejoicing at how demons were subject to them, Jesus declared, "I saw Satan fall like lightning" (Luke 10:18). Thus for the gospel to move forward at all in the world, it is necessary for Satan to be bound in one sense, even if he may still be active in attacking individuals (1 Pet. 5:8).
The millennium is a golden age not when compared to the glories of the age to come, but in comparison to all prior ages of human history, in which the world was swallowed in pagan darkness. Today, a third of the human race is Christian and even more than that have repudiated pagan idols and embraced the worship of the God of Abraham.

Premillennialism

Third on the list is premillennialism, currently the most popular among Fundamentalists and Evangelicals (though a century ago amillennialism was). Most of the books written about the End Times, such as Hal Lindsey’s Late Great Planet Earth, are written from a premillennial perspective.
Like postmillennialists, premillennialists believe that the thousand years is an earthly golden age during which the world will be thoroughly Christianized. Unlike postmillennialists, they believe that it will occur after the Second Coming rather than before, so that Christ reigns physically on earth during the millennium. They believe that the Final Judgment will occur only after the millennium is over (which many interpret to be an exactly one thousand year period).
But Scripture does not support the idea of a thousand year span between the Second Coming and the Final Judgment. Christ declares, "For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done" (Matt. 16:27), and "[w]hen the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. . . . And they [the goats] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:31–32, 46).

The Rapture

Premillennialists often give much attention to the doctrine of the rapture. According to this doctrine, when Christ returns, all of the elect who have died will be raised and transformed into a glorious state, along with the living elect, and then be caught up to be with Christ. The key text referring to the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, which states, "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."
Premillennialists hold, as do virtually all Christians (except certain postmillennialists), that the Second Coming will be preceded by a time of great trouble and persecution of God’s people (2 Thess. 2:1–4). This period is often called the tribulation. Until the nineteenth century, all Christians agreed that the rapture—though it was not called that at the time—would occur immediately before the Second Coming, at the close of the period of persecution. This position is today called the "post-tribulational" view because it says the rapture will come after the tribulation.
But in the 1800s, some began to claim that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism. Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bibleuncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history.
Eventually, a third position developed, known as the "mid-tribulational" view, which claims that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. Finally, a fourth view developed that claims that there will not be a single rapture where all believers are gathered to Christ, but that there will be a series of mini-raptures that occur at different times with respect to the tribulation.
This confusion has caused the movement to split into bitterly opposed camps.
The problem with all of the positions (except the historic, post-tribulational view, which was accepted by all Christians, including non-premillennialists) is that they split the Second Coming into different events. In the case of the pre-trib view, Christ is thought to have three comings—one when he was born in Bethlehem, one when he returns for the rapture at the tribulation’s beginning, and one at tribulation’s end, when he establishes the millennium. This three-comings view is foreign to Scripture.
Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote: "Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. The score is 3 to 0, three passages for a post-tribulational rapture and three that say nothing on the subject.
. . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it" (The Word of Truth, 556–7).


Good expositions, but they are not entirely accurate.


The early Church fathers of the 1st and 2nd century were primarily of the Premillennialist position (though that term did not yet exist then). They believed in Christ's second coming to end this present world, and then the time of Christ's reign on the earth with His elect priests and kings. It's because... that's actually what is written in God's Word, and not just in the Revelation 20 chapter.

The doctrines that developed within the Roman Church with it's inception in the 4th century (380 A.D.) started departing from much of the Christian Doctrine which the early 1st and 2nd century Church fathers had, which later caused such movements as the Christian Protestant Reformation by those like Martin Luther.

When those like Augustine were sent to Britain to convert the people to Catholicism, he found Christian bishops already established in Britain which refused to give heed to any 'pope' in authority over them, but to only address those like the pope as they would another Christian brother (this idea is even written in the orginal Letter To King James, and To The Reader by the 1611 King James translators in the first edition of the KJV Bible).