Can You Lose Your Salvation ?

[veteran]

veteran, reading a little further on from your Rom.11: 1-5 we find this-
Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.
Rom. 13:11 '-for salvation is nearer to us now then when we first believed.'. If we already have salvation, then how can we only be nearer to it?

So did that apply to Christ's Apostles, even Apostle Paul? Could that be applied to those whom God chose in OT times like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jonah (huge example), Job, etc.?? The answer is NO. Back in Romans 9 Paul already revealed this difference when he mentioned how before Jacob and Esau were born, neither having chance to do good or evil, God hated Esau, but loved Jacob.

What I'm trying to get you to understand by what Paul declared there in Rom.11:1-5 is that 'remnant' which God has already preserved according the election of grace is by God's Own Hand. Our Lord Jesus covered more of this in John 17, might want to study it line upon line and notice two groups are being point to, the first group being an elect chosen leadership in The Gospel, and a second group that would be joined with them who come to believe on Jesus Christ through their word (preaching). Even though Christ's Apostles at the time of His first coming have passed on, this remnant election which God has preserved unto Himself still exists on earth today.


Here's an example of an end time event pointing to Paul's remnant election idea...

Matt 24:22-24
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
(KJV)

The "false Christs" phrase is actually Greek 'pseudochristos', meaning 'a pseudo Christ'. Our Lord Jesus is giving that as an example of how strong... the level of deception caused by that false one's working of "great signs and wonders" will be. He uses the idea of His elect to show that. The "insomuch that, if it were possible" phrase is a conditional phrase, and what does it reveal? It reveals His elect servants CANNOT BE DECEIVED by those great signs and wonders that pseudo christ is coming to work. It's the same thing as saying, 'it is impossible' for His elect to be deceived by that false one's working.

Is that meant for all... believers on Christ Jesus? No.

We know that by Paul's warnings to believers in Scripture like 2 Cor.11 and 2 Thess.2 about the great apostasy of many believers by the coming fake messiah. Even at the first of Christ's Olivet Discourse in Matt.24 His very first warning was to not allow any man to deceive us.

So how is it that it is not possible... for His elect to be deceived, like our Lord Jesus revealed there in Matt.24:24? It's because those have already been predestinated, justified, and glorified, like Paul taught back in Romans 8:28-30. They represent an elect group of servants that God has pre-ordained to not fall away from Christ, even all the way to the end when Christ returns.

Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
(KJV)


With our Lord's 7 Messages to the 7 Churches in Asia, we see this once again, for only 2 of the 7 Churches Christ had no rebuke for (that of Smyrna and Philadelphia). And only ... those 2 Churches did He bring up the subject of the "synagogue of Satan" with.

So there is an elect remnant which God has preserved unto His Salvation through Christ Jesus, and they cannot fall away. All others can fall away, of which some will and other will not. That's what negates the "once saved, always saved" doctrine of men.

Paul (Saul) is one of the greatest Biblical examples of a 'chosen' elect by Christ. Paul was in the act of persecuting Christ's Church, hunting them down and bringing Christians in chains back to Jerusalem to be tried. Christ DIRECTLY INTERVENED with Paul, converting him on the road to Damascus (Acts 9). And when Jesus was questioned about Paul's conversion because of his history as a persecutor of Christians, our Lord Jesus said Paul was a "chosen vessel" unto Him. So God's Word does reveal the idea of a chosen elect that cannot be turned away from Christ, and that it does not apply to all believers, but only to those which Christ selects as chosen vesssels, using Divine Intervention.

veteran says
Were those 'called' only? No, those were called AND... chosen. Could they reject God's calling as chosen sent ones? Nope. Apostle Paul is one of best examples of that too, for he had authority to hunt down Christians from the Jews, and was on the road to Damascus to do just that, when Christ Jesus DIRECTLY intervened and converted him.

a person who is called and chosen CAN reject God's calling as chosen sent ones. like you said paul chose to remain and do what Christ's purpose for him was. had paul hardened his heart against God to do the will of God then paul probably never would of gotten his sight back. according the the word each and every one of us were created before the foundation of the world to accomplish something for God. we were given all the gifts and abilities needed to accomplish this task God has for us. God calls people to him all the time but very few actually chose to do what it is God is asking us to do or we are willing but somewhere we get sidetracked and get lead astray from God's original purpose for our life. this is why it is written that many are called but few are chosen.

God bless

Per the Matt.24:24, it would have been impossible for Apostle Paul to fall away from Christ Jesus. Just the mere act of Christ having DIVINELY INTERVENED with converting Paul is proof of this, as also with Paul continually being pulled out of dangers during his commission to preach The Gospel under many dangers. And especially with Paul towards the end of his commission being shown his end was soon coming (Acts 20; Acts 23; 2 Tim.4).

Jonah in the Old Testament is another major proof of an elect chosen one that cannot go astray. Jonah tried to refuse God commanding him to go preach to the city of Nineveh, even jumped overboard off the boat. Who won that contest??

It's for this reason of a chosen elect that God often DIRECTLY INTERVENED in their lives throughout Bible history.

I know all of us as believers on Christ Jesus would like to think of ourselves as His chosen elect which can never fall away from Him. But most of us well know we've not been under the same kind of working by God's Hand as the chosen Patriarchs, prophets, and Apostles have been. So we should not want to detract from God's Will in having chosen them by trying to apply it to ourselves, which would be to exalt ourselves beyond the calling we have been given from our Heavenly Father and His Son. I will only admit that I am 'called' and not a 'chosen' one, although there might be a possibility otherwise which could manifest in the future tribulation, and the same would apply to most believers here also.

 

[7angels]

Per the Matt.24:24, it would have been impossible for Apostle Paul to fall away from Christ Jesus. Just the mere act of Christ having DIVINELY INTERVENED with converting Paul is proof of this, as also with Paul continually being pulled out of dangers during his commission to preach The Gospel under many dangers. And especially with Paul towards the end of his commission being shown his end was soon coming (Acts 20; Acts 23; 2 Tim.4).

first you don't understand that you are getting fall away mixed up with being led astray. if you read matt 24:24 it supports my claim more then your claim. paul was one of God's elect. matt 24 says For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones). this says if possible even God's elect to be deceived and lead astray. so it is possible even if not very probable that paul could of been lead astray if he had stated to follow a false doctrine. so if one of God's chosen ones can be led astray then anyone could be lead astray. Even Jesus could of been led astray (but i thank God he wasn't). if Jesus was not able to be led astray then the word that was spoken about Jesus being tempted by everything we were tempted with and did not sin was a lie because if Jesus could not of had the choice to choose between good and evil then Jesus was not tempted like we are tested.

also i know people who have had Jesus show up in dreams and visions, physically talked to them, and ect. this gives them a great testamony but does not ensure that they will not fall away from God. now if you are referring to people that are hot after God then yes you are right that they cannot be made to lose their salvation but they can choose to lose it or never accept it if they wish.

Jonah in the Old Testament is another major proof of an elect chosen one that cannot go astray. Jonah tried to refuse God commanding him to go preach to the city of Nineveh, even jumped overboard off the boat. Who won that contest??

first jonah was hot for God but if you read jonah you will see that Jonah knew the heart of God and jonah also knew that if he went and preached to them that and they repented that God would forgive them and not wipe them out after all but save them and jonah did not want this to happen(see jonah 3:10-4:11). jonah wanted to die before he wished to carry out the word of God. has jonah not repented in the fish he probably never would of made it to nenevah.

It's for this reason of a chosen elect that God often DIRECTLY INTERVENED in their lives throughout Bible history.

I know all of us as believers on Christ Jesus would like to think of ourselves as His chosen elect which can never fall away from Him. But most of us well know we've not been under the same kind of working by God's Hand as the chosen Patriarchs, prophets, and Apostles have been. So we should not want to detract from God's Will in having chosen them by trying to apply it to ourselves, which would be to exalt ourselves beyond the calling we have been given from our Heavenly Father and His Son. I will only admit that I am 'called' and not a 'chosen' one, although there might be a possibility otherwise which could manifest in the future tribulation, and the same would apply to most believers here also.

i am also a called one but i and also a chosen one. i refuse to be anything else. God wants us all to be chosen ones which is why God is calling us but it is our decisions that will ultimately decide on whether or not we become chosen ones of God. i am glad that you know God's mind about what you are in Christ but according to scripture i refuse anything that is not the best God has for me. i know what the word says is required to become a chosen one of God so if i or anyone else wishes to achieve those standards who are we to try and tell another that it is not probable so why even try. it is this kind of thinking that is stopping the church from taking her rightful place that God has for her.

God bless

 

[neophyte]

I will let this Catholic Apologist Tim Staples answer the question of "predestination' and can one lose his/her salvation.

For Catholics, when God "establishes his eternal plan of ‘predestination,’ he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace" (CCC 600). Thus, anyone who is finally saved will have been predestined by God because it was God’s predestined plan and God’s grace that went before him and enabled him to be saved.
However, this does not mean that God has predestined anyone for hell. Indeed, the Bible cannot be any plainer than to say God is, "not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance" (2 Pt 3:9). God wills all to be saved. To be damned, a person must willfully reject God’s "predestined plan" for his salvation (cf. CCC 2037): simple enough.
But for a Calvinist, Ephesians 2:1 declares all who are apart from Christ to be "dead in trespasses and sins." In that view, to say a man could freely choose to accept or reject God’s grace and invitation to salvation would be as ridiculous as saying a corpse could choose to raise itself from the dead. Moreover, for Jesus’ declaration that a man must be "born anew" in John 3:3 to include the freedom to reject the offer would be akin to saying a baby has a say in whether or not he will choose to be born.
Romans 9:18-22 is perhaps the favorite-among-favorites of Calvinists:

So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction . . .​

Could Paul be clearer? Our salvation is entirely dependent on God’s unchangeable will. The free will of which the Catholic Church speaks is simply unbiblical. Shall we all join the local Calvinist ecclesial community, then? The answer seems—predestined.
Spiritual, Not Literal, Death

In fact, the Catholic Church agrees with the Calvinist in saying those who are "dead in trespasses and sins" do not have the power to "bring themselves back to life." Man cannot "work up" grace or faith; these are unmerited gifts from a loving God (see Eph 2:8-9). The hundreds of millions of babies the Church has baptized should suffice to make this point obvious. How many good works has a baby done to merit anything from God?
A key area, among others, where Catholics and Calvinists diverge is at the definition of "dead in trespasses and sins" and "born anew." Calvinists seem not to understand that these are metaphors. Paul is speaking of a spiritual death. Thus, the "dead" man to whom Ephesians 2:1 refers is still a human person complete with a living soul and a functioning intellect and will. No separation of soul and body requiring the reconstitution of personhood has occurred.
Moreover, by "born anew" in John 3:3, Jesus did not mean the sinner’s soul somehow ceased to exist, needing to brought into being from non-being. If this were so, then there would truly be no sense in which the sinner would be able to cooperate with God in the process.
The truth is: The soul of the unregenerate man "dead in sin" remains alive and able to know and to will (assuming we are talking about an adult convert). His soul is spiritually dead. Even though an unregenerate soul cannot merit anything from God, this does not mean he cannot cooperate with God who calls him to salvation. This seems to be what we find in the case of Saul of Tarsus. If ever a man was "dead in sin," it was Saul. Yet, in Acts 22:16, he was asked to cooperate with the grace of God in the cleansing of his sins when Ananias said to him, "rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name."
The Choice Is Ours

What the Calvinist misses is clear throughout the Bible. Man is truly free and God calls him to freely choose to serve or not to serve the Lord. From the famous Old Testament charge of Joshua to "choose this day whom you will serve . . . but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord," (Jo 24:15) to the very words of Jesus Christ himself, "If any man thirst, let him come to me, and drink" (Jn 7:37), man’s freedom to choose to obey or disobey the will of God for salvation is absolutely central to the teachings of Sacred Scripture.
But doesn’t a statement like "hath not the potter power over the clay" from Romans 9 seem awfully Calvinist? Not when we consider it is actually a reference back to Jeremiah 18:6: "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? Says the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel."
If you were to take this verse out of context you might get a Calvinist interpretation of Jeremiah. However, the next four verses are enlightening, to say the least:

If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will repent of the evil that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will repent of the good which I had intended to do to it. (Jer 18:7-10)​

Far from denying free will, Jeremiah glaringly affirms it. The same can be said of Paul. Throughout Romans and elsewhere, Paul clearly teaches all men must freely cooperate with God’s grace to be saved. For example, look at Romans 2:6-8: "[God] will render to every man according to his works: To those who by patience in well-doing [good works] seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life, but for those who . . . do not obey the truth . . . there will be wrath and fury."
Or try Romans 11:22: "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off."
In Romans 6:16, Paul makes clear that we must continue to obey to attain final justification: "Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?" (Gk. justification).
Indeed, Jesus himself could not be any clearer in Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!"
As God, Jesus clearly desired to gather his children, Israel, but they would not. If the Calvinist view of predestination were true, God never willed to gather them at all. Jesus got it wrong here. If he truly willed to gather them, they would have been gathered!
Grace Is Sufficient

But what about Romans 9:18-19? "Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will; and whom he will, he hardeneth. Thou wilt say therefore to me: ‘Why doth he then find fault? For who resisteth his will?’" (D-R).
To be sure: there is a certain mystery involved in God’s predestined plan. We could ask many unanswerable questions. For example, why does God give more grace to some than others (see Rom 12:6, 1 Pt 4:10)? Why does God allow someone to be born and live knowing they will eventually choose to reject him and go to hell (see Rom 9:22)? This is precisely what Paul is talking about when he refers to "vessels of wrath made for destruction" (Rom 9:22).
We could go on. Why doesn’t God give the one rejecting him more grace? It may be true that if God had given more grace to someone in hell, he would have made it to heaven. The only response to questions like these truly is: "But who are you, a man, to answer back to God?" However, he errs who takes this to the point of turning God into an unjust God. Even if some are given more grace than others, everyone is given sufficient grace to be saved. That is clear in Scripture, as Titus 2:11 tells us: "the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men " If God did not give a man sufficient grace to be saved, then God would truly be unjust in condemning him. There is no mystery there at all.
The Price of Freedom

The good news is that St. Paul has already told us precisely who God "hardens" in Romans 1:24-28:

God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity . . . because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator . . . For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions . . . And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up . . .​

God’s will is immutable; therefore, God’s will is always accomplished. The mistake is to reject free will because of this truth. We have already seen that it is God’s will for all to be saved (2 Pt 3:9, cf. 1 Tm 2:4, 1 Jn 2:1-2). But it is also true that some men will not be saved (cf. Mt 7:13, 25:46; Rv 21:8). This implies the freedom to choose to serve God or not (cf. Dt 28:15, Mt 19:17-22). All of this must be understood within God’s predestined plan. How do we reconcile all of this? We conclude that God’s will has an antecedent and a consequent nature. It is God’s antecedent will that all be saved. However, as a consequence of God’s gift of free will, some reject God’s antecedent will. It then becomes God’s consequent will for that soul to go to hell. God’s will is accomplished and our free will, which is revealed in Scripture, is preserved. It is God’s predestined plan for us to have free will (CCC 600).



Tim Staples is Director of Apologetics and Evangelization at Catholic Answers, but he was not always Catholic. Tim was raised a Southern Baptist. Although he fell away from the faith of his childhood, Tim came back to faith in Christ during his late teen years through the witness of...

 

[Roger]

I used to think that you could'nt lose your salvation but now I'm not so sure..can someone help me out here ?

HollyRock, Hi

Yes...

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Kind of makes me thing of Satan and the fallen angels who sinned "bound in chains of darkness reserved until the great white throne judgment, "2Peter 2 and Jude and in the book of Job" and you can be sure their names are not in the book of life.

Saved: He laid down his life for you and me, Jesus the Son of the Living God. God created the heavens and the earth, who is in every molecule that makes up all things, the universe, the earth, man and beast all things like little eyes.
Yes, our lives are in God who holds it all together. So he gives us saints, power to be Sons of God.

Thank-You Jesus.

God's Scribe Roger

 

[neophyte]

Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 – Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our “works” do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved.
Rev. 3:15 – Jesus says, “I know your works, you are neither cold nor hot. Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth.” Jesus is condemning indifferentism, which is often based on our works.
Rev. 14:13 - we are judged by the Lord by our works – “for their deeds follow them!” Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.
Rev. 20:12 – “the dead are judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.”
Rev. 22:12 – Jesus says, “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done.”
Sirach 16:12,14 – we are judged according to our deeds, and will receive in accordance with our deeds.

 

[rainbows]

Hello everyone, this is my first post.

I would like to ask a question if you do not mind.

I noticed two verses from Romans chapter 8 quoted in
a number of posts. Would some of you like to have a shot
at explaining who are "those" in Romans 8:29.

I believe that it is important to understanding Romans itself.

Romans 8: 29-30

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called,
He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

This does relate to the title of the thread.

 

[Angelina]

Hi rainbows!

I think that the Church in Rome that Paul was addressing in the book of Romans, was made up of both Jewish and Gentile believers...but predominantly Gentile

Blessings!!!

 

[rainbows]

Thank you Angelina for that very warm welcome.

Considering Romans1;

3 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

May I ask why you said "jew and gentile"?

 

[Angelina]

Sorry...my computer is playing up a little...

Romans 8
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Blessings!!!

 

[rainbows]

Romans 8: 29

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Your answer would be the standard answer Angelina.

There are in fact three possible answers, the first in context would be
the Jews. The second the Gentiles, after all Romans is addressed to the
Gentiles. Finally the third possibility is you answer, the Jews and the
Gentiles.

It should be noted that Romans 8:29 is certainly not addressing
individual election.

If anyone else is confident that they can pin point which group Paul
is referring to, and why?

 

[7angels]

[sup]29 [/sup]For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was [sup][k][/sup]aware and [sup][l][/sup]loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren.
[sup]30 [/sup]And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being].

now let me explain these verses as i feel led. v 29 is telling us that every man, woman, and child has been chosen by God from before the foundation of the world(if you need this verse i can look it up but i did a quick look and missed it). every one of us has a plan that God created each and every one of us for(same thing i will located the scripture if needed). the word states that God wants all to come to the knowledge of him and be saved
(1 tim 2:4). v 30 is saying that since God chose every person to be with him and know him and that God also gave us everything we need to carry out God's plan for our lives. this verse ties into the verse that says many are called but few are chosen. it refers to 1. on how many people God calls to himself to be saved and then on how many actually accept his gift of salvation. 2. it also refers to how many are accept salvation but of those that accept salvation only a small majority of those actually go out and do what God has called them to do. how do i come up with this is because v 30 tells us that all are called from the foundation of the world. but we know from the word that narrow is the path and few find it but broad is the path that leads to destruction. then that verse goes on to show that those that are called and accept can become chosen ones of God and be glorified. but the sad thing is very few are willing to make the sacrifice necessary to reach this point. it is easy to say but it is hard to walk the walk. i hope this helps you

God bless

 

[Roger]

Hello everyone, this is my first post.

I would like to ask a question if you do not mind.

I noticed two verses from Romans chapter 8 quoted in
a number of posts. Would some of you like to have a shot
at explaining who are "those" in Romans 8:29.

I believe that it is important to understanding Romans itself.

Romans 8: 29-30

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called,
He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

This does relate to the title of the thread.

"According to the threads title: you can see if you are rebellious God will cast you out of his house, Adam and Eve will tell you that. God provided a savior Christ Jesus. If you are unfaithful you will be put out."

rainbows, Hi, Welcome

I believe he was speaking in general. " All of us, there is no gentile or Jew"

Galatians 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I would like to share a story with you all...

In the darkness in the visions of the night I saw God standing upon a stone and he said, "I am and I have a need that I have friends like myself." At that very moment he saw this discussion,
he is God, the author of the Revelations he knows the future and how we all turn out, therefore he prepares us for the Kingdom, "Jesus".

Remember Esther needed to be prepared before she could approach the King. We to are being prepared by the Holy Spirit, and God's angels. Jesus blood being sprinkled on us.

Esther 2:8 So it came to pass, when the king's commandment and his decree was heard, and when many maidens were gathered together unto Shushan the palace, to the custody of Hegai, that Esther was brought also unto the king's house, to the custody of Hegai, keeper of the women.

Esther 2:9 And the maiden pleased him, and she obtained kindness of him; and he speedily gave her her things for purification, with such things as belonged to her, and seven maidens, which were meet to be given her, out of the king's house: and he preferred her and her maids unto the best place of the house of the women.

Esther 2:12 Now when every maid's turn was come to go in to king Ahasuerus, after that she had been twelve months, according to the manner of the women, (for so were the days of their purifications accomplished, to wit, six months with oil of myrrh, and six months with sweet odours, and with other things for the purifying of the women

You are a peculiar treasure to God.

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

May the Lord prepare our hearts for we are a peculiar treasure, anointed by God with the Holy Spirit, "our Sealed." Jesus accomplished this work for us, giving us eternal life, a free gift from God, we in him. We having no righteousness of ourselves, we all are dirty rags but these dirty rags have the blood of Jesus on them, therefore God hears us.


Love, and forgive all.


-Roger, God's Scribe

 

[neophyte]

Romans 8:29-- "Image": while man and woman were originally created in God's image [ Gn 1,26-27 ], it is through baptism into Christ, the image of God [ 2 Cor 4, 4; Col 1, 15 ], that we are renewed according to the image of the Creator [ Col 3, 10 ].

 

[veteran]

first you don't understand that you are getting fall away mixed up with being led astray. if you read matt 24:24 it supports my claim more then your claim. paul was one of God's elect. matt 24 says For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones). this says if possible even God's elect to be deceived and lead astray. so it is possible even if not very probable that paul could of been lead astray if he had stated to follow a false doctrine. so if one of God's chosen ones can be led astray then anyone could be lead astray.

Not how my Bible reads. Even though for readability the KJV translators added the phrase "it were" in Matt.24:24, the idea is the same in the Greek. 'Insomuch that IF possible' = 'Insomuch that IF it were possible'. The Greek "if" (ei) is about a condition per the grammar. I don't like the NIV in many areas, but it got the context correct on that part of the verse...

Matt 24:24-25
24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect-if that were possible.
NIV

The idea? Not possible for Christ's elect to be deceived by that deception. And that's also what Christ promised those of the Church of Philadelphia also, that He would keep them from the "hour of temptation" because they kept The Word of His patience (Rev.3). So what you just said there fell flat on its face. Old Testament history is plentiful with examples of how God preserved His elect Seed of the woman that Christ was to be born through, even when God's enemies appeared to have the upper-hand over them.



[quote]Even Jesus could of been led astray (but i thank God he wasn't). if Jesus was not able to be led astray then the word that was spoken about Jesus being tempted by everything we were tempted with and did not sin was a lie because if Jesus could not of had the choice to choose between good and evil then Jesus was not tempted like we are tested. [/quote]

You're in a gross state of confusion with that idea above. It's not even worthy of me commenting on, reason being, that if Jesus could be tempted then it would mean He is not The Son of God. Read Luke 4. You'll see how the devil TRIED to tempt Him, but did not succeed. To be tempted means to succumb to the temptation and thus the tempter.

also i know people who have had Jesus show up in dreams and visions, physically talked to them, and ect. this gives them a great testamony but does not ensure that they will not fall away from God. now if you are referring to people that are hot after God then yes you are right that they cannot be made to lose their salvation but they can choose to lose it or never accept it if they wish.

I've heard stories of some preachers saying Jesus told them what house or car to buy, things like that. Most likely Christ never told those any such thing. Hirelings have to do something to try to sound authentic, since they aren't given to understand God's Word and God did not call them.

What I'm talking about is more simple. God has an election He ordained to serve in The Gospel, and then He called others to 'hear' The Gospel through their preaching. Christ made a distinction between those two groups in John 17.

first jonah was hot for God but if you read jonah you will see that Jonah knew the heart of God and jonah also knew that if he went and preached to them that and they repented that God would forgive them and not wipe them out after all but save them and jonah did not want this to happen(see jonah 3:10-4:11). jonah wanted to die before he wished to carry out the word of God. has jonah not repented in the fish he probably never would of made it to nenevah.

Yes, and who won that argument? God did, even had Jonah spit upon the shores of Nineveh. Jonah wised to die, but God DIRECTLY INTERVENED. And that's the point. Otherwise, why doesn't God directly intervene with all of us who have believed on Him and His Son like He did with His elect Old Testament servants? Point really is, everyone today wants to think they are one of God's chosen election, like His chosen sent ones through Bible history. That thinking is a sign of today's Socialist thinking, the Liberalism-Equality thing in failing to recognize God's Authority through those whom He chose to lead us. For those of us 'called' only, we must overcome in Christ and not fall away in order to be joined with His elect as one Body.


John 17:18-21
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
(KJV)

i am also a called one but i and also a chosen one. i refuse to be anything else.

Like I said, some refuse to recognize God's Authority in the matter of His choosing His elect vs. those of us who are 'called' only.

 

[neophyte]

So ,for the first four hundred years of Christianity before those words of the NT were compiled into the bible there was no" chosen elect" or 'called' what a bunch of phooey . Actually much longer than that , possibly not until the Catholic Guttenberg printing press or when the man-made concept of sola scriptura was invented something like 1511 A.D. You people are saying that all those Christians prior to your invention of the man-made concept of such things as" sola scriptura" the "elect" vs. the" called ones"

 

[veteran]

So ,for the first four hundred years of Christianity before those words of the NT were compiled into the bible there was no" chosen elect" or 'called' what a bunch of phooey . Actually much longer than that , possibly not until the Catholic Guttenberg printing press or when the man-made concept of sola scriptura was invented something like 1511 A.D. You people are saying that all those Christians prior to your invention of the man-made concept of such things as" sola scriptura" the "elect" vs. the" called ones"

Sounds a bit like you're out in left field somewhere. The concept of God's election goes all the way back to God's Garden of Eden with the Seed of the woman prophecy in Genesis 3. Even in Ephesians 2 Paul declared about God's elect being chosen before the foundation of this world, and in Rom.9 with what he said about Jacob and Esau, that seals the evidence even the more. So did that mean everyone in the early Church during the Apostles days were chosen elect? No, and it's easy to grasp that with Christ's 7 Messages to the 7 Churches in Asia, specifically with 5 of them that had some bad problems going on, most likely caused by a 'crept in unaware' (one of the devil's servants). What that actually reveals with those 5 Churches that were having problems is that those were in a the state of falling away from Christ because of failing to recognize influence by Christ's enemies.


Rev 2:12-15
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith He Which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast My name, and hast not denied My faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus revealed that location of the Church of Pergamos was surrounded by His enemies, and one of His servants (Antipas) was even martyred among them by the devil's followers in that area. Mostly like there were some of the devil's servants that had crept in there which were responsible for the evils going on with some believers at that Church. When wickedness creeps into Christ's Body, we can be assured it does not occur all by itself, especially if Christ has a 'chosen' overseer present in the Body given to discern such things like Apostle Paul was able. The last two verses in bold reveals a presence there by some of the 'crept in unawares'.

 

[neophyte]

Sounds a bit like you're out in left field somewhere. The concept of God's election goes all the way back to God's Garden of Eden with the Seed of the woman prophecy in Genesis 3. Even in Ephesians 2 Paul declared about God's elect being chosen before the foundation of this world, and in Rom.9 with what he said about Jacob and Esau, that seals the evidence even the more. So did that mean everyone in the early Church during the Apostles days were chosen elect? No, and it's easy to grasp that with Christ's 7 Messages to the 7 Churches in Asia, specifically with 5 of them that had some bad problems going on, most likely caused by a 'crept in unaware' (one of the devil's servants). What that actually reveals with those 5 Churches that were having problems is that those were in a the state of falling away from Christ because of failing to recognize influence by Christ's enemies.


Rev 2:12-15
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith He Which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast My name, and hast not denied My faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus revealed that location of the Church of Pergamos was surrounded by His enemies, and one of His servants (Antipas) was even martyred among them by the devil's followers in that area. Mostly like there were some of the devil's servants that had crept in there which were responsible for the evils going on with some believers at that Church. When wickedness creeps into Christ's Body, we can be assured it does not occur all by itself, especially if Christ has a 'chosen' overseer present in the Body given to discern such things like Apostle Paul was able. The last two verses in bold reveals a presence there by some of the 'crept in unawares'.

The Scriptures are clear: When Christ comes again, it will be His second and final coming at the end of the world. On this “last day” and at this “hour,” Christ will judge the living and the dead. The righteous will be raised to eternal life, and the unrighteous will be raised to judgment and eternal punishment.Nothing more nothing added. Your last two verses mean nothing connected to Christ's Apostolic Church because its docrines are protected by the promise of Jesus . Matt 16:18, 28:20 ] the Apostolic /Catholic Church [ Eph. 2: 19-20 ] taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition [ 2 Tim 2:2 ] and it teaches that there are both "good and bad " members in His CCatholic/Apostolic Church [ John 6: 70 ] and not all the members would go to heaven [ Matt. 7: 21-23 ].

 

[biggandyy]

Here, mister! You dropped this. Do you want it back?

Losing salvation... if you "lost" it that means you never really had it to begin with. You might have played with it as a dog with a toy, but you never REALLY possesed salvation.

 

[rainbows]

Some good answers to the question on
Romans 8:29-30.

Scripture contains the signature of God.

Scripture is the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Scripture explains the reconciliatian of mankind
to God through Jesus Christ.

To fully understand this reconciliation and the process
of reconciliation one requires the Holy Spirit.

OSAS is "a" theological position derived from an
understanding of the scripture.

Is OSAS contained in the scripture?

Is OSAS a doctrine of theology or is it a doctrine contained
in the revelation of Jesus Christ to humanity?

I chose Romans 8:29-30 because it is famous in traditional theology.

Some hold that Romans 8:29 is the election of God's chosen (singular).

Hence, OSAS is a natural derivative of God's soveriegn choice.

Another group hold to the idea that OSAS is simply a result
of God's Grace, after all we are a warped image unable
to respond fully to the call of Jesus. If the response of man
to the Gospel was necessary, man would fail. God's plan of
reconciliation would fail.

Finaly, another group of Christians will reject the above and
emphasis the endurance and the reliance on the Holy Spirit.
Running the race according to the rules.

So this riddle reduces simply to the understanding of election
itself and how God implements this election.

Is the election singular, or corporate, first of all.

If election is singular then OSAS is solid, no cracks.

If election is corporate then OSAS may not be a stable
construction.

What is election in Christ, singular or corporate?

Did Jesus choose you, or did Jesus choose the Gentiles?

 

[neophyte]

[background=#fff]

rainbows, you make up your own religion, don't you, ,certainly not from Jesus, sometimes Scripture speaks of believers possessing eternal life now, but it also talks about it as something in the future.
When eternal life is described as a present possession of Christians, this is an example of what theologians call "realized eschatology." This means that Christians participate now in a limited way in what they will experience more fully in the Kingdom of God to come. It doesn't necessarily imply those who have so partaken of the Kingdom and its gifts can't be lost (Heb 3:14; 6:4-6).
The Bible speaks of eternal life as something future (Mt 19:29; Mk 9:43-47; Ti 1:2; 3:7; Jude 21) and based upon our fidelity, by God's grace, to his commandments (Mt 19:16-17; 25:46; Jn 3:36; Rom 2:6-10; 1 Tm 6:18-19; Jas 1:12; 2 Tm 2:12).
The Bible records in many places extensive lists of sins whereby we can deny Christ, such as 1 Corinthians 6:9-10: "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, etc. Scripture never says the saved can do these things and still go to heaven.
Maybe you're not aware but confessing Christ is done not only in' word' but also needs to be done in deed, to take action, such as :" If any one does not provide for his relatives .......... has disown the faith and is worse than an "unbeliever" [ 1 Tim 5: 8 ]
[/background]