CATHOLIC BASHING THREAD TITLES

[Josiah]

So you are at a loss to give the year this "denomination" started, and you either refuse or are unable to name the Person who started it.

In what year did fire start? Can you name the person who started it? If not, does that prove fire doesn't exist? Your presumption and "logic" are absurd.


Sure, the RCC is not a denomination if every parish is entirely, wholly independent and autonomous and isolated from any other - sharing no common name, no common governance, no common catechism, no common ministry.... Is it? Nope. Thus, your parish is NOT in ANY sense 'non-denom" which means it's denom. Your parish is actually legally OWNED and OPERATED by a legal corporation made up of many parishes, a corporation with a governance above and outside that of any parish, a common name, a common catechism, with supervision of the parishes - all definitions of a denomination.


And of course, IF your point is true and every parish is autonomous of any other, then for your point to be true, every one of the million plus parishes with "Catholic" (capitol C) in the name of the parish would have to have been founded by Jesus and have Jesus as a signature in their article of incorproation - which as you know - is the case with NO parish. You can't have it both ways - insisting Jesus founded the RC Denomination (and there is ZERO evidence of that - ZERO) and that Jesus founded every autonomous non-denominational parish that has "Catholic" in the name but not "Orthodox" or any other (also zero evidence of that; my Catholic parish claims it was found in 1964 and thus is NOT 2000 years old). Your premise is silly, contradictory and irrelevant.


And whether your parish is denominational (owned and operated by the denomination) or non-denominational (each wholly autonomous; there is nothing other than millions of entirely independent parishes) is ENTIRELY unrelated to anything (including the topic of this thread.

I said the essential truths have not changed

Then it's easy. Quote the official Catechism of the RCC in the year 18 AD and the one from 2018 AD and show me that every word is the same. Can't? Then you've proved my point correct.


Frankly, I know of no denomination on the planet that has changed it teachings more than the RCC, Indeed, even my 1994 Catechism is being changed and the changed one is being prepared for publication. My Lutheran one has not has even ONE LETTER changed, added, or deleted in nearly 500 years.... no Catholic Catechism has lasted even a century without being changed. You claim is absurd and unhistorical.... and you know it which is why you had to dodge the issue.


And irrelevant. It has nothing to do with anything in this thread or anything to do with anything. My denomination has not changed ANYTHING - not added one letter, not one punctuation mark - not deleted any - not edited any - no changes of any types - since it's founded in 1847. Your denomination is in the process of changing what it declared in my 1994 Catechism. It's added two DE FIDE DOGMAS during that time. That doesn't make it wrong (although it does make it a denomination since no non-denom parish declared those who dogmas, the denomination did).


Thank you. Now back to the issue of the thread.


- Josiah



.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Understood....

MY "problem" is that the singular, individual Catholic denomination agrees with NONE, is in doctrinal unity with NONE. I realize the individualism of the RCC is denominational (one of thousands) but it still is in unity and agreement with no other; as a denomination, it is no better (and often much worse) than any other denomination we might name - since there is not any denomination with less unity/agreement than the RCC has simply because it is not possible to have unity with LESS than none.

Now, that's NOT to indicate that the RCC is horrible (I esteem much in it) only that it lacks full doctrinal agreement with any other than with it itself exclusively (and even that is very limited) - a comment that applies to many (but not all) other denominations, too.

But let's see if we can get back to the issue here?

Blessings!

Josiah

That's because the Catholic Church is not a "denomination".
It is the original tree from which Protestantism splintered - and continues to splinter from itself.

 

[Josiah]

That's because the Catholic Church is not a "denomination"..

Okay. Then every parish with "Catholic" in its name is entirely, wholly autonomous, independent, isolated and has NO formal association with any other or with any organization outside itself, and each owns and operates itself, calls it's own pastors, has it's own catechism... no pope, no headquarters, no Catholic anything. Okay - all are non-denom, you insist. Then, friend, how could Jesus have founded something you insist doesn't exist? How can you then prove that every one of the million plus parishes with "CATHOLIC" in their name was founded by Jesus in the First Century (especially since my Catholic parish insisted that it was founded in 1964)? Your point is both silly and unhistorical - but above all, irrelevant. I assume you only recognize Mercedes Benz as an automobile because it's the oldest car maker still in existence and deny that Toyota makes cars. Your whole point is silly.... and irrelevant to anything.


Back to the issue...


- Josiah

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have not explained the ways of God, nor the mysteries thereof, but the ways of men.

But I have explained the mystery of God and you have not heard, just as it is written:

‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’

Apparently, you are not ready. Nonetheless, men do not rule the world, and these things which you trouble yourself over adding to the fighting and division, men have meant for evil, but God has meant for good.

Too bad you are not up to discussing it.

Well, that's a nice dodge - but that's all it is: a DODGE.

You haven't address ONE thing - nor have you explained why you think God is "okay" with tens of thousands of disjointed sects teaching polar opposite doctrines - ALL in His name.

YOU paint a picture of God as some king of confused cosmic moron who teaches that "anything goes" - as long as it's not Catholic.

Finally - you could NEVER explain the mystery of God. THAT'S why it is a mystery.
YOU can't even explain the mystery of why tens of thousands of disjointed sects teaching polar opposite doctrines ALL call themselves "The Church" . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Okay. Then every parish with "Catholic" in its name is entirely, wholly autonomous, independent, isolated and has NO formal association with any other or with any organization outside itself, and each owns and operates itself, calls it's own pastors, has it's own catechism... no pope, no headquarters, no Catholic anything. Okay - all are non-denom, you insist. Then, friend, how could Jesus have founded something you insist doesn't exist? How can you then prove that every one of the million plus parishes with "CATHOLIC" in their name was founded by Jesus in the First Century (especially since my Catholic parish insisted that it was founded in 1964)? Your point is both silly and unhistorical - but above all, irrelevant. I assume you only recognize Mercedes Benz as an automobile because it's the oldest car maker still in existence and deny that Toyota makes cars. Your whole point is silly.... and irrelevant to anything.

Back to the issue...

- Josiah

HUHH??
EVERY Catholic Diocese and EVERY Catholic Parish is part of the SAME Catholic Church. It is simply in different locations.

The SAME is true for the Early Church. It was located in Rome, Jerusalem, Corinth, Thessalonica, Ephesus, Sardis, Philippi, Galatia, etc. It was the SAME Church in many different locations. They weren't teaching different doctrines.

And, if they DID - they were chastised and disciplined by the Apostles and other Bishops. these weren't "denominations" - they were LOCATIONS. Denominations didn't arise until the Protestant Revolt.

 

[Josiah]

EVERY Catholic Diocese and EVERY Catholic Parish is part of the SAME Catholic Church.

Thus, you just stated there is a DENOMINATION. You just denied that your parishes are non-denom. Again, my friend, you can't have it both ways. You can't insist that there is no denomination but Jesus founded it. Either the million-plus parishes that have "CATHOLIC" in their moniker and articles of incorporation are wholly independent, autonomous, isolated with NO formal association with ANY OTHER entity, NO shared anything, NO shared name, NO shared governance, NO shared catechism (thus non-denom) or they are a part of a corporation ABOVE and BEYOND each parish, thus denominational. The most radical denominations are those that actually legally OWN and OPERATE each of its parishes (as is the case with the RC one).

When you make up your mind as to whether The Catholic Church as a geopolitical, legal, economic, governing entity exists or not... or whether every parish with "Catholic" in the legal moniker of its Article of Incorporation is entirely autonomous.... let us know. Which did Jesus found? Every non-denom parish or the Catholic denomination? I think you will just evade your own pov since it's absurd and unhistorical.... and irrelevant to anything. Oldest does not equal best or founded by Jesus unless you actually believe that every Mercedes Benz car is made by Jesus. Let's move on....

But your point is irrelevant to anything.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thus, you just stated there is a DENOMINATION. You just denied that your parishes are non-denom. Again, my friend, you can't have it both ways. You can't insist that there is no denomination but Jesus founded it. Either the million-plus parishes that have "CATHOLIC" in their moniker and articles of incorporation are wholly independent, autonomous, isolated with NO formal association with ANY OTHER entity, NO shared anything, NO shared name, NO shared governance, NO shared catechism (thus non-denom) or they are a part of a corporation ABOVE and BEYOND each parish, thus denominational. The most radical denominations are those that actually legally OWN and OPERATE each of its parishes (as is the case with the RC one).

When you make up your mind as to whether The Catholic Church as a geopolitical, legal, economic, governing entity exists or not... or whether every parish with "Catholic" in the legal moniker of its Article of Incorporation is entirely autonomous.... let us know. Which did Jesus found? Every non-denom parish or the Catholic denomination? I think you will just evade your own pov since it's absurd and unhistorical.... and irrelevant to anything. Oldest does not equal best or founded by Jesus unless you actually believe that every Mercedes Benz car is made by Jesus. Let's move on....

But your point is irrelevant to anything.

A denomination is a breakaway sect. The Catholic Church hasn't broken away from ANYBODY.
As I stated - it is the Original Tree from which Protestantism splintered.

Now - a date and a founder for EVERY Protestant denomination can be shown in history.
Do me a favor - give me the date and name of the founder of the Catholic Church - and THEN, you might have a case.

UNTIL then, however, your desperate posts are futile . . .

 

[ScottA]

Well, that's a nice dodge - but that's all it is: a DODGE.

Not hearing or seeing on your part, is not a dodge on my part.

You haven't address ONE thing - nor have you explained why you think God is "okay" with tens of thousands of disjointed sects teaching polar opposite doctrines - ALL in His name.

Okay? ... I am not saying He is "Okay", I am saying "His strength is made perfect in weakness."

Are you getting any of this?

Are you that naive?

God created the world. Men don't have the helm, God does. By your logic the cross would be a failure.

YOU paint a picture of God as some king of confused cosmic moron who teaches that "anything goes" - as long as it's not Catholic.

Get with the program - this is His m.o. for victory.

Finally - you could NEVER explain the mystery of God. THAT'S why it is a mystery.
YOU can't even explain the mystery of why tens of thousands of disjointed sects teaching polar opposite doctrines ALL call themselves "The Church" . . .

Unbelief on your part, does not mean that the Holy Spirit has not lead others unto all truth. Remember? That was the promise.

Come out of the dark ages.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Not hearing or seeing on your part, is not a dodge on my part.
Okay? ... I am not saying He is "Okay", I am saying "His strength is made perfect in weakness."

Are you that naive?

God created the world. Men don't have the helm, God does. By your logic the cross would be a failure.

Get with the program - this is His m.o. for success.

Unbelief on your part, does not mean that the Holy Spirit has not lead others unto all truth.

Come out of the dark ages.

Random ad hominems and snarky comments are NO substitute for an explanation - which you have FAILED to provide so far. You cannot show that God is pleased with doctrinal combat among His so-called followers.

HOWEVER, the Scriptures tell us that He delights in the UNITY of His Body - NOT in the division and divorce of it (John 17:20-23).

 

[ScottA]

Random ad hominems and snarky comments are NO substitute for an explanation - which you have FAILED to provide so far. You cannot show that God is pleased with doctrinal combat among His so-called followers.

HOWEVER, the Scriptures tell us that He delights in the UNITY of His Body - NOT in the division and divorce of it (John 17:20-23).

You need to STOP and pay attention.

"My strength is made perfect in weakness." is not an "ad hominem and snarky comment." That is the explanation - not mine, His.

Your comments have you calling God a "moron." Your words, not mine.

 

[Josiah]

A denomination is a breakaway sect. The Catholic Church hasn't broken away from ANYBODY.

If there is a Catholic Church - which is a geopolitical/legal/economic entity, governing and operating the parishes that it actually OWNS - then it's a denomination (and parishes are simply local operations of such). If there is no Catholic Church but simply millions of autononous, independent, isolated parishes that may or may not have the word "Catholic" in their legal moniker but recognize NOTHING above or beyond it (other than God), NO common governance, NO common Catechism, NO common ministry, then each is non-denom. When you make up your mind, let us know. But OBVIOUSLY, you can't accept BOTH.

As I stated - it is the Original Tree from which Protestantism splintered.

The original tree is the community of believers that Jesus founded. The RC Denomination can't predate the first denomination, the Roman Church, which the Roman Empire founded for itself in the image of itself, in the 4th Century. And that denomination BY NO MEANS embraced all Christian parishes or all Christian people - just most within the borders of the Roman Empire. It lasted a bit over a century and then split (the Roman Church thus no longer embracing the Oriental Orthodox Churches in the Eastern most part of the Empire) and then again in 1054 (the Roman Church splitting off of the East) and then the Roman Church splitting itself again in 1521.

Now - a date and a founder for EVERY Protestant denomination can be shown in history

So what? Why does that matter?

Can you give the date of the founding of the Roman Catholic Denomination; I'd love to see the Articles of Incorporation of such, and see Jesus' signature. Now, you CLAIM that Jesus founded the Catholic Church (but insist the Catholic Church never has existed) and the LDS claims that Jesus founded that denomination. But neither of you have ANYTHING but the claim of self alone for self alone to support this.

Can you give me the DATE when fire first started and the NAME of the person who started it? IF you can't, does that prove that it was Jesus that did it on April 1, 33 AD? I find your whole entirely unhistorical presumption to be both silly and irrelevant (even to you). Do you live in Denmark because it is likely the oldest country still in continuous existence or in Iceland because it's likely the oldest democracy; do you own a Mercedes Benz because it's the oldest car company still in existence? And of course, the Orthodox Church claims that it's the oldest .... Claims are easy to make. Even if irrelevant to anything.


Back to the issue....


- Josiah

 

[BreadOfLife]

You need to STOP and pay attention.

"My strength is made perfect in weakness." is not an "ad hominem and snarky comment." That is the explanation - not mine, His.

Your comments have you calling God a "moron." Your words, not mine.

Ummmmm, first of all I never called God a "moron". I said that YOU think of Him as one.
Your dishonesty knows NO bounds . . .

Secondly - 2 Cor. 12:9 is NOT a license to be disobedient to the authority of Christ's Church.
It is simply another verse YOU have taken OUT of context.

 

[BreadOfLife]

If there is a Catholic Church - which is a geopolitical/legal/economic entity, governing and operating the parishes that it actually OWNS - then it's a denomination (and parishes are simply local operations of such). If there is no Catholic Church but simply millions of autononous, independent, isolated parishes that may or may not have the word "Catholic" in their legal moniker but recognize NOTHING above or beyond it (other than God), NO common governance, NO common Catechism, NO common ministry, then each is non-denom. When you make up your mind, let us know. But OBVIOUSLY, you can't accept BOTH.

Soooooo, you actually believe that the Church of the New Testament was a gaggle of renegade sects that ALL taught different doctrines?? What comic book version of Scripture are YOU reading??

The Early Church was united in doctrine and belief - UNLIKE the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects of today that ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim they were "led" by the Holy Spirit.
God is NOT the Author of confusion . . .

The original tree is the community of believers that Jesus founded. The RC Denomination can't predate the first denomination, the Roman Church, which the Roman Empire founded for itself in the image of itself, in the 4th Century. And that denomination BY NO MEANS embraced all Christian parishes or all Christian people - just most within the borders of the Roman Empire. It lasted a bit over a century and then split (the Roman Church thus no longer embracing the Oriental Orthodox Churches in the Eastern most part of the Empire) and then again in 1054 (the Roman Church splitting off of the East) and then the Roman Church splitting itself again in 1521.

Soooooo, you're saying that the Catholic Church of today was founded in the 4th century??
By WHOM??
What YEAR??

While you're searching for those answers - please also tell me what "RC Denomination" means and where you go this non-existent title.

So what? Why does that matter?

Can you give the date of the founding of the Roman Catholic Denomination; I'd love to see the Articles of Incorporation of such, and see Jesus' signature. Now, you CLAIM that Jesus founded the Catholic Church (but insist the Catholic Church never has existed) and the LDS claims that Jesus founded that denomination. But neither of you have ANYTHING but the claim of self alone for self alone to support this.

Uhhhh, no - I'm asking YOU.
YOU are the one making a claim so the onus of proof is on YOU - not me.

Please give me the date of the origin of the Catholic Church and the name of the founder.
If you can't do that - then you will have to admit that you are LYING.

Can you give me the DATE when fire first started and the NAME of the person who started it? IF you can't, does that prove that it was Jesus that did it on April 1, 33 AD? I find your whole entirely unhistorical presumption to be both silly and irrelevant (even to you). Do you live in Denmark because it is likely the oldest country still in continuous existence or in Iceland because it's likely the oldest democracy; do you own a Mercedes Benz because it's the oldest car company still in existence? And of course, the Orthodox Church claims that it's the oldest .... Claims are easy to make. Even if irrelevant to anything.

Back to the issue....
- Josiah

No - because I never made ANY claims about the origin of fire.
On the other hand - YOU made a claim about the origins of the Catholic Church that you cannot seem to substantiate.

In most educated circles - this is what is referred to as a "LIE" . . .[/QUOTE]

 

[ScottA]

Ummmmm, first of all I never called God a "moron". I said that YOU think of Him as one.
Your dishonesty knows NO bounds . . .

I quoted you. Your accusation made my quote of "My strength is made perfect in weakness" moronic. Your words.

God knows.

Secondly - 2 Cor. 12:9 is NOT a license to be disobedient to the authority of Christ's Church.
It is simply another verse YOU have taken OUT of context.

The verse is an explanation, which you have not taken to heart. Therefore you do not understand, and have appointed yourself Master at Arms like Peter who would have not allowed Christ to be crucified. And the answer Jesus gave Him was not "Unity", it was "Get behind me Satan!" Which you now deserve also.

But, do not be mistaken, God loves unity, and so do I. But you indeed are like Peter.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I quoted you. Your accusation made my quote of "My strength is made perfect in weakness" moronic. Your words.

God knows.
The verse is an explanation, which you have not taken to heart. Therefore you do not understand, and have appointed yourself Master at Arms like Peter who would have not allowed Christ to be crucified. And the answer Jesus gave Him was not "Unity", it was "Get behind me Satan!" Which you now deserve also.

But, do not be mistaken, God loves unity, and so do I. But you indeed are like Peter.

No - I merely stated that YOUR interpretation of His Word was off.

You seem to think that this verse gives is a license to follow our OWN will and do whatever WE want to do instead of conforming to HIS will. Jesus said very sternly that ONLY the one who does the will of the Father will be saved (Matt. 7:21).

There are NOT 2 sets of rules - God's and ours. We follow HIS rules or we LOSE.

 

[Josiah]

Soooooo, you actually believe that the Church of the New Testament was a gaggle of renegade sects that ALL taught different doctrines??

Pure diversion.....

When you make up your mind whether the parishes with "CATHOLIC" in their legal moniker are non-denom (entirely autonomous) or denominational (part of a legal entity above and beyond it) - let us know. But you can't have it both ways (it's silly, impossible and just evasive).

I don't agree with you that the specific RC Denomination existed in 33 AD and that the denominational catechism in that year is the same as the one I have from 1994,

I believe that the community of Christians was and still is a community of believers.... that the assembling of Christians then and now is the assembling of Christians (it's what the word "church" means).

But I notice you can't give any objective proof that Jesus founded the RC Denomination (which you claim never existed anyway - so no one could found it) or give a date for that. Nor can you give objective proof of who first started fire and what date that was. Your whole point is silly. And irrelevant.

The Early Church was united in doctrine and belief

The RC Denomination is united with NONE in doctrine and belief. Sure, it itself (individually) is OFFICIALLY and CURRENTLY, as one DENOMINATION, is in full agreement with it itself (as a denomination) in those issues that the denomination currently holds it itself must agree with it itself concerning, but that doesn't mean taht any Catholic is and it only means that it itself alone agrees with it itself alone (as a denomination, and in that very limited sense). Now, are there other denominations that also agree with NONE but it itself in that very limited and denominational sense? Yes. Some. But there are none WORSE than the RC denomination since it is impossible to be in unity with fewer than NO OTHER.


Your points are entirely unsubstantiated and irrelevant (and contradictory).


.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Pure diversion.....

When you make up your mind whether the parishes with "CATHOLIC" in their legal moniker are non-denom (entirely autonomous) or denominational (part of a legal entity above and beyond it) - let us know. But you can't have it both ways (it's silly, impossible and just evasive).

I don't agree with you that the specific RC Denomination existed in 33 AD and that the denominational catechism in that year is the same as the one I have from 1994,

I believe that the community of Christians was and still is a community of believers.... that the assembling of Christians then and now is the assembling of Christians (it's what the word "church" means).

But I notice you can't give any objective proof that Jesus founded the RC Denomination (which you claim never existed anyway - so no one could found it) or give a date for that. Nor can you give objective proof of who first started fire and what date that was. Your whole point is silly. And irrelevant.

The RC Denomination is united with NONE in doctrine and belief. Sure, it itself (individually) is OFFICIALLY and CURRENTLY, as one DENOMINATION, is in full agreement with it itself (as a denomination) in those issues that the denomination currently holds it itself must agree with it itself concerning, but that doesn't mean taht any Catholic is and it only means that it itself alone agrees with it itself alone (as a denomination, and in that very limited sense). Now, are there other denominations that also agree with NONE but it itself in that very limited and denominational sense? Yes. Some. But there are none WORSE than the RC denomination since it is impossible to be in unity with fewer than NO OTHER.

Your points are entirely unsubstantiated and irrelevant (and contradictory)..

First of all - you are lying when you say that Catholic doctrine is NOT united with any other Christian sect.
We all agree on MANY of the essentials. The Trinity, the deity of Christ, His sacrificial death for the expiation of sins, His Resurrection and Ascension, His Second Coming, etc.

Most of your Protestant Fathers agreed on MUCH more Catholic doctrine that has long-since been abandoned by YOU, their ecclesial descendants.

Now, I ask you - WHY do you keep running from the questions?? I have asked you repeatedly to substantiate your claims that the Catholic Church began oin the FOURTH century.
What Year??
WHO started it??

You have ALSO failed to tell me where you got this term "RC denomination"?? Can you tell me what that means?

 

[Josiah]

you are lying when you say that Catholic doctrine is NOT united with any other Christian sect.

Then list for us all the OTHER denominations whose official teachings are IDENTICAL to the 2,865 points of the Official Catholic Catechism of 1994. But you KNOW, there are NONE. The RC Denomination is in doctrinal agreement with NONE but it itself alone, a grand "unity" of none but it itself with it itself (as a denomination) - and even that is so limited as to be meaningless.

So now the RCC is a "sect"? You say "any OTHER sect?" Okay.

I have asked you repeatedly to substantiate your claims that the Catholic Church began oin the FOURTH century.

I never claimed it was. You say it (which you claim didn't exist) was founded by Jesus in the year ______ (but it doesn't exist so could not have been founded). I asked you for the objective PROOF of that (perhaps a copy of the Article of Incorporation with Jesus' signature and the date on it would do).

And I asked you why this matters? Do you know when fire first started and who started it? If not, do you insist fire doesn't exist OR that Jesus THEREFORE had to have started it? Your whole premise here is just..... well..... incredibly silly. And irrelevant.


Now back to the issue....


- Josiah

 

[ScottA]

No - I merely stated that YOUR interpretation of His Word was off.

You seem to think that this verse gives is a license to follow our OWN will and do whatever WE want to do instead of conforming to HIS will. Jesus said very sternly that ONLY the one who does the will of the Father will be saved (Matt. 7:21).

There are NOT 2 sets of rules - God's and ours. We follow HIS rules or we LOSE.

Yes, and that is why you should take serious Jesus' rebuke of Peter, whose understanding was just as far off as yours now is.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Then list for us all the OTHER denominations whose official teachings are IDENTICAL to the 2,865 points of the Official Catholic Catechism of 1994. But you KNOW, there are NONE. The RC Denomination is in doctrinal agreement with NONE but it itself alone, a grand "unity" of none but it itself with it itself (as a denomination) - and even that is so limited as to be meaningless.

So now the RCC is a "sect"? You say "any OTHER sect?" Okay.

The SAME can be said of MOST of the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects of today.
I can't think of ANY 2 sects that have 100% agreement on everything. The difference between ALL of them and the Catholic Church is that the Catholic Church is where they splintered from.

THEY broke with Catholic doctrine - NOT the other way around.
Do your homework . . .

I never claimed it was. You say it (which you claim didn't exist) was founded by Jesus in the year ______ (but it doesn't exist so could not have been founded). I asked you for the objective PROOF of that (perhaps a copy of the Article of Incorporation with Jesus' signature and the date on it would do).

And I asked you why this matters? Do you know when fire first started and who started it? If not, do you insist fire doesn't exist OR that Jesus THEREFORE had to have started it? Your whole premise here is just..... well..... incredibly silly. And irrelevant.

Now back to the issue....

- Josiah

Ummmm, YOU keep referring to the Catholic Church as a "denominnation". Therefore, it MUST have a beginning - and a founder.
If you cannot give me the year (or daceade) and the NAME of the founder - then you're simply lying.

As for your asinine comparison to the origins of fire - that is an impotent argument because I never brought fire into the conversation - YOU did.

Finally - when did I claim that the Catholic Church didn't exist??
If you want to have an intelligent conversation - you're going to have to stop lying . . .