Cessationism versus Continuationism - The fallacy of "Signs Gifts".

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
11,002
4,517
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Cessationism claims that the miracle gifts of the Holy Spirit were signs to authenticate the early church.
And consequently the miracle gifts disappeared when the Apostles did.

Continuationism says that all the gifts were for the church and that all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still valid today.
The book of Acts and 1 Corinthians chapters 12 and 14 support this understanding.

Both views are biblical, meaning proponents of both views offer scriptural support.
But which view is more plausible? Let's discuss.

1 Corinthians 1:7 NIV
Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.
]
 

ElieG12

Well-Known Member
Oct 8, 2022
1,046
331
83
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The fact that first century Christians were anointed directly from heaven and received gifts of the holy spirit does not mean that modern "Christians" enjoy those same benefits. For example, in ancient times the Israelites saw miracles such as the ten plagues in Egypt, the sea parting, the cloud in the night and the pillar of fire in the desert, etc... but the magnitude of the miracles they saw, Christians of the first century did not see. So evidently there are several stages in which God has related in different ways to His own people.

There were also moments of rupture such as His rejection of the nation of Israel when most of them did not accept the Messiah. Then, shortly after the death of the apostle John, the apostolic age ended, and the apostasy was free to prosper. After the apostolic age ended, the general situation of God's people changed. Similar to the Babylonian exile, from the second to the twentieth centuries, isolated Christians who pleased God were imbued with a religious system that did not allow them to separate as a free people. Those few living from the second century AD onward would no longer enjoy the same benefits as Israel or those of the anointed ones of the first century. Spiritual gifts ceased to exist and no more books inspired by holy spirit were written that were part of the inspired "canon".

The modern era began a new stage. Many groups began to study the Bible more deeply from the end of the 19th century onwards, taking advantage of the steps that had gradually been taken before their time. Those steps were open discussions on biblical topics, critic to the poor performance of the traditional church, archaeological discoveries confirming the Bible, more translations and publication of the Bible, deeper studies of biblical languages and manuscripts, etc. At the beginning of the twentieth century the world religious situation was very confusing. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that at that time the prophecy of Mal. 3:1-4 was fulfilled in its modern fulfillment, and Jesus saw the groups of people who were trying to discover the truth and do things the right way, so He choose one group and cleansed them, separating them to constitute the modern people of God. We witnesses consider that by leaving the world religious system and becoming independent from it since 1919, our people were separated to serve Jehovah and Jesus in a special way.

Jesus gave many ways to identify God's people in the time of the end, but none of them have to do with being enabled by the holy spirit to do miraculous works, neither like those witnessed by the Israelites before Christ, nor the miracles that were performed by the anointed ones in the first century. One thing is certain: Christendom, made up of thousands of different sects, is not the people that Christ leads. It is part of the world system that is separate from God and Christ, and has been so since the beginning of the widespread apostasy sometime in the second century. Its end is close to happen.
 

Hepzibah

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2012
1,092
797
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Cessationism claims that the miracle gifts of the Holy Spirit were signs to authenticate the early church.
And consequently the miracle gifts disappeared when the Apostles did.
Cessationists are talking about the sign gifts, not miraculous gifts. That is to say tongues, or speaking in an untaught language, and the sort of healing we saw then, like what was witnessed from the apostles. They do not say that all miracles have ended nor that God does not heal miraculously today, though it is rarer. Untaught languages have been noted too.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
13,883
4,088
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Cessationism claims that the miracle gifts of the Holy Spirit were signs to authenticate the early church.
And consequently the miracle gifts disappeared when the Apostles did.

Continuationism says that all the gifts were for the church and that all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still valid today.
The book of Acts and 1 Corinthians chapters 12 and 14 support this understanding.

Both views are biblical, meaning proponents of both views offer scriptural support.
But which view is more plausible? Let's discuss.

1 Corinthians 1:7 NIV
Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.
]
Continualism gets my vote. with the caveat that the charisma gifts are very misunderstood and abused.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
11,002
4,517
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Cessationists are talking about the sign gifts, not miraculous gifts. That is to say tongues, or speaking in an untaught language, and the sort of healing we saw then, like what was witnessed from the apostles. They do not say that all miracles have ended nor that God does not heal miraculously today, though it is rarer. Untaught languages have been noted too.
I suppose there is a spectrum of hard-line and soft-line Cessationists, yes.

]
 

Hepzibah

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2012
1,092
797
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
You suppose, but you should know if you are going to make claims. Most people get this one wrong, Continuists that is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
11,002
4,517
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You suppose, but you should know if you are going to make claims. Most people get this one wrong, Continuists that is.
I was raised in Protestant evangelicalism, I know what Cessationists believe.

]
 

Hepzibah

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2012
1,092
797
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
I was raised in Protestant evangelicalism, I know what Cessationists believe.

]
So your church taught that God does not heal at all today? My Calvinist background that I left did not believe that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
11,002
4,517
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So your church taught that God does not heal at all today? My Calvinist background that I left did not believe that.
That's not the point. They taught that God does not use humans to heal.

The Elders could lay hands on the sick (which they rarely if ever did) and God would heal.
The miracle of healing was not on account of God's power flowing through a person.

Interesting to read what the Apostle Paul says about this.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 NIV
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words,
but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power,
5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

]
 

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,964
1,532
113
63
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The last part of first Corinthians 13 clearly states that we now see through a glass darkly, but then face-to-face. He said now we prophesy part, but then prophecies will cease. Now Jesus has not returned. Then Jesus will return. The gifts are necessary until the second coming of Jesus and the millennial reign. Then at that point the gifts will be unnecessary.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,964
1,532
113
63
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
First Corinthians chapter 1 says that you come behind in no gift unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to shall confirm you unto the end.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
11,002
4,517
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The last part of first Corinthians 13 clearly states that we now see through a glass darkly, but then face-to-face. He said now we prophesy part, but then prophecies will cease. Now Jesus has not returned. Then Jesus will return. The gifts are necessary until the second coming of Jesus and the millennial reign. Then at that point the gifts will be unnecessary.
Yes. That agrees with my signature line below.

Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. - 1 Corinthians 1:7 NIV

]
 
  • Like
Reactions: Truther

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
11,100
6,232
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Yes. That agrees with my signature line below.

Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. - 1 Corinthians 1:7 NIV

]
Why does Paul leave people sick (Phil 2:26-27; 1 Tim 5:23; 2 Tim 4:20)? Why does James have the sick call the elders and not one with the gift of healing (James 5:14-16)? Why do I not see miracles and healing? Deere may be correct in that the doctrine of cessationism originates in experience but that does not mean it is not true. One could hardly affirm cessationism if miracles and healing are happening all about him. Experience is the confirming factor in the case of either continuation or cessationism. Ultimately, the Bible must affirm (i.e., either affirm it as true or false) or allow our experience. It cannot contradict it (i.e., say it cannot happen). Whatever the case may be Deere raises the issue of putting the doctrine of cessationism to a biblical examination. Are cessationists asking questions of the Bible that will only affirm their conclusion? Or are they being honest and letting the text speak for itself, not forcing it into a prescribed theological framework? There are several texts that need to be discussed. Noncessationists argue that 1 Corinthians 1:4-8; Ephesians 4:7-13; as well as other passages affirm continuation. Cessationists insist that 2 Corinthians 12:12; Ephesians 2:20; 3:5; and Hebrews 2:1-4 suggest that the miraculous and revelatory gifts have ceased. Both cessationists and noncessationists use 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 to defend their view. In addition to these texts are the passages concerning the miraculous and revelatory gifts themselves, their nature, purpose and use. These texts will also be examined. Finally, some conclusions shall be made concerning these issues as well as how certain questions influence our doctrine of miraculous gifts.
 

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,964
1,532
113
63
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why does Paul leave people sick (Phil 2:26-27; 1 Tim 5:23; 2 Tim 4:20)? Why does James have the sick call the elders and not one with the gift of healing (James 5:14-16)? Why do I not see miracles and healing? Deere may be correct in that the doctrine of cessationism originates in experience but that does not mean it is not true. One could hardly affirm cessationism if miracles and healing are happening all about him. Experience is the confirming factor in the case of either continuation or cessationism. Ultimately, the Bible must affirm (i.e., either affirm it as true or false) or allow our experience. It cannot contradict it (i.e., say it cannot happen). Whatever the case may be Deere raises the issue of putting the doctrine of cessationism to a biblical examination. Are cessationists asking questions of the Bible that will only affirm their conclusion? Or are they being honest and letting the text speak for itself, not forcing it into a prescribed theological framework? There are several texts that need to be discussed. Noncessationists argue that 1 Corinthians 1:4-8; Ephesians 4:7-13; as well as other passages affirm continuation. Cessationists insist that 2 Corinthians 12:12; Ephesians 2:20; 3:5; and Hebrews 2:1-4 suggest that the miraculous and revelatory gifts have ceased. Both cessationists and noncessationists use 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 to defend their view. In addition to these texts are the passages concerning the miraculous and revelatory gifts themselves, their nature, purpose and use. These texts will also be examined. Finally, some conclusions shall be made concerning these issues as well as how certain questions influence our doctrine of miraculous gifts.
The questions you’re asking are very important. The reason why that not all are healed is simple. We are in a pre-millennial, partial, dark glass experience.
We are included into the future promise to the fathers per future national Israel when Jesus comes, save them all and heals all the people on earth. Jesus does not wanna give that glory to his church beforehand. So now, it only has it in a partial, dark glass(obscured ) way right now.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
11,002
4,517
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
From the OP with new emphasis.

Cessationism claims that the miracle gifts of the Holy Spirit were signs to authenticate the early church.
And consequently the miracle gifts disappeared when the Apostles did.

Continuationism says that all the gifts were for the church and that all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still valid today.
The book of Acts and 1 Corinthians chapters 12 and 14 support this understanding.

Both views are biblical, meaning proponents of both views offer scriptural support.
But which view is more plausible? Let's discuss.

[