Changing verses to conform to forever punishment theology

[Raccoon1010]

I have a question for you @Patrick1966.

I looked up another scripture that backs up Matthew 25:41

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So my question to you is what do you think the 2nd death is? Can we die twice. I will answer. The first death is our mortal lives here on earth. And the second death is for those that are judged to death after the resurrection and thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Patrick1966]

Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Patrick1966]

I have a question for you @Patrick1966.

I looked up another scripture that backs up Matthew 25:41

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So my question to you is what do you think the 2nd death is? Can we die twice. I will answer. The first death is our mortal lives here on earth. And the second death is for those that are judged to death after the resurrection and thrown into the lake of fire.

I believe the second death is reserved for the truly wicked. And what exactly is the Lake of Fire? The name is symbolic of a metal worker's crucible used to melt and purify metal. I believe the "Lake of Fire" is a very unpleasant process for evil beings that, ultimately, refines them. Jesus devised the Lake of Fire to save the worst of humanity along with Satan, fallen angels, and demons. Most English Bible translations say their time there is "eternal" but those translations are erroneous. Those in the Lake of Fire are there for "an age" or an "eon" (aeonian), not FOREVER.

You can Google "read Concordant Literal New Testament online" and check out verses for yourself.

Remember, 1 Timothy 4:10 says that Jesus is the savior of ALL men. Every English Bible translation says so but most also include verses that say that some people are punished "eternally". As I said, erroneous Bible translations result in them contradicting themselves along with the creation of demonic doctrines such as "eternal" punishment.

 

[Raccoon1010]

I believe the second death is reserved for the truly wicked. And what exactly is the Lake of Fire? The name is symbolic of a metal worker's crucible used to melt and purify metal. I believe the "Lake of Fire" is a very unpleasant process for evil beings that, ultimately, refines them. Jesus devised the Lake of Fire to save the worst of humanity along with Satan, fallen angels, and demons. Most English Bible translations say their time there is "eternal" but those translations are erroneous. Those in the Lake of Fire are there for "an age" or an "eon" (aeonian), not FOREVER.

You can Google "read Concordant Literal New Testament online" and check out verses for yourself.

Remember, 1 Timothy 4:10 says that Jesus is the savior of ALL men. Every English Bible translation says so but most also include verses that say that some people are punished "eternally". As I said, erroneous Bible translations result in them contradicting themselves along with the creation of demonic doctrines such as "eternal" punishment.

Well to me death means to cease to exist, physically, but not spiritually perhaps. The body dies. Second death must then at minimum mean that people will be resurrected and killed so they have no body. The following verse taken into context with Revelation 20:14 supports that idea. Especially when you read that some will inherit resurrected etneral life, the contrast is that the others will be killed in the lake of fire and not given eternal life:

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Patrick1966]

Well to me death means to cease to exist, physically, but not spiritually perhaps. The body dies. Second death must then at minimum mean that people will be resurrected and killed so they have no body. The following verse taken into context with Revelation 20:14 supports that idea. Especially when you read that some will inherit resurrected etneral life, the contrast is that the others will be killed in the lake of fire and not given eternal life:

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Again, erroneous translation.

Daniel 12:2 Young's Literal Translation
`And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

 

[Patrick1966]

@dev553344

What does this say? If punishment is forever then this verse is incorrect.

2 Samuel 14:14 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Well I don't really follow your teachings @Patrick1966, and I did notice that the Catholics believe in a refining fire of purgatory. But they believe it is reserved for Saints that aren't made clean entirely. At least I think that is what I was shown.

But so you believe all souls will be refined? Interesting. Perhaps coming from one's own persona that might be believable if you could not consider people that are evil like Satan. Satan is pure evil and does no good. He must be destroyed in the end.

 

[Patrick1966]

@dev553344

What does this say? If punishment is forever then this verse is incorrect.

2 Samuel 14:14 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

You'll also noticed that the word "means" was used and what is significant is that it is plural as in that Jesus has created more than one "means" to save those that have been banished.

 

[Patrick1966]

Well I don't really follow your teachings @Patrick1966, and I did notice that the Catholics believe in a refining fire of purgatory. But they believe it is reserved for Saints that aren't made clean entirely. At least I think that is what I was shown.

But so you believe all souls will be refined? Interesting. Perhaps coming from one's own persona that might be believable if you could not consider people that are evil like Satan. Satan is pure evil and does no good. He must be destroyed in the end.

Satan is doing EXACTLY what God created him to do. Satan will also be saved and purified.

 

[Raccoon1010]

@dev553344

What does this say? If punishment is forever then this verse is incorrect.

2 Samuel 14:14 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

Well, it would appear that you have an idea that you believe and are looking for specific scriptures and translations that support your belief. I don't do that as I find in physics that if I want to believe a false idea enough I will find some false evidence to support it. And that is a scientific method of factual evidence and false evidence.

 

[Raccoon1010]

You'll also noticed that the word "means" was used and what is significant is that it is plural as in that Jesus has created more than one "means" to save those that have been banished.

Well it would appear that we can pull up scripture to contradict each others ideas. So which is correct? You'll have to decide obviously. I like to make harmony of all scripture. And I didn't really read the context surrounding the scripture passages you've quoted. But I often find that if I read the surrounding passages it becomes more clear as to the meaning of single verses.

 

[Patrick1966]

Well, it would appear that you have an idea that you believe and are looking for specific scriptures and translations that support your belief. I don't do that as I find in physics that if I want to believe a false idea enough I will find some false evidence to support it. And that is a scientific method of factual evidence and false evidence.

I appreciate the discussion and your brotherly love. May God bless us all!

 

[Raccoon1010]

As far as making harmony with all scripture. In your specific post #42, you said:

Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

And my answer to that would be to quote a specific scripture:

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

This shows you that not everyone that confesses Jesus will be saved.

 

[Patrick1966]

As far as making harmony with all scripture. In your specific post #42, you said:



And my answer to that would be to quote a specific scripture:

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

This shows you that not everyone that confesses Jesus will be saved.

Ok. So the scriptures are in error and Jesus tortures people forever.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Ok. So the scriptures are in error and Jesus tortures people forever.

No that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that all scripture is good for food. And that means our understanding of it must include all scripture:

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Some things in scripture are implied into the understanding. I won't go thru that as one must find his own understanding of scripture. But I will say this, I follow people that are in harmony with all scripture for their understanding of it.