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Christ will come again

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by dragonfly, Mar 22, 2013.

  1. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    I think that the rational, reasonable and proper exegetical method is to determine if a prophecy can be applied to Christ's first coming (as Isaiah 59:20 obviously can be). If it can be, what rationale or warrant do we have to discard it and project the prophecy's fulfillment into the future? That seems like utter foolishness.
  2. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi HeRoseFromTheDead,

    In fact, to be fair to the brother who was using it to bolster a particular slant on Romans 11:26, he quickly seemed to accept that it could be applied to Christ's first coming, although at first he seemed to be saying it was about some future coming.

    Along with that particular interpretation goes a misinterpretation of 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord', which is being associated by some, with the idea that Christ will have returned before certain Jews/Israelites will believe in Him. Whereas Christ says in more than one place that He is sending His disciples in exactly the same way as His Father had sent Him. Therefore, I read that as He was 'blessed' for 'coming in the name of the Lord', so also will His disciples be being 'blessed' for 'coming in the name of the Lord', and no descendant of Jacob living today need expect any other messenger of salvation. Just as Naaman had to accept the word of God through the servant, likewise humility is in due order today.

    To Rocky Wiley,

    Something drew my attention to a wider look at 'generation', and I discovered these adjectives for good measure, ;)

    Matthew 12:45 45 Then goes he, and takes with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation. Zechariah

    Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

    Matthew 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

    In repeating versions of these verses, Mark manages to add sinful, and Luke adds evil. And they all quote 'a generation of vipers'.
  3. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    That seems reasonable.

    I have wondered about that event because Matthew has the acclamation occurring before Jesus addressed the pharisees, and Luke switches the order. If Luke's version is correct, then that would preclude the common misinterpretation you mentioned. But the 'let everything be established by two or three witnesses' rule leaves the exact occurrence of this particular episode in doubt.
  4. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    To me, any misinterpretation is resting on the word 'see' in 'shall not see me until ye say'. If we believe that Christ is in us, and He can be observed in our attitudes, speech and actions, then people (unbelievers) can indeed 'see' Him, despite our frailties. It is purely carnal to insist that physical sight is necessary to believe, for the very comment that Jesus made to Thomas in John 20:29. There's that word 'blessed' again.

    In John 8, Jesus is speaking straight to Pharisees who are refusing to believe in Him. I don't believe it's possible to be in a conversation with Jesus Christ, and not know one is speaking with the Son of God, the promised servant and King, the Messiah. That's why their unbelief is worthy of the condemnation He gives it. They did know, and they did absolutely refuse to acknowledge Him. They failed the 'sheep' test, by not following His voice.

    They also, above all other Israelites, knew what Moses had said about 'that Prophet', there being severe repercussions for not receiving His word.
  5. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Good points. Likewise there are four "generations" to the first age of every anthropon-man, (for the Scripture cannot be broken) and the sons of the same first age both marry and are given in marriage, as in the days of Noah, (like the Girgashite man of the Gergesenos had "married" himself to a "legion" of Girgashite warriors, Woe!). The Matthew 12 passage which you have quoted supplies one of the many examples of this "four-generational" truth found in the Scripture:

    Matthew 12:39-45 KJV
    39. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation [1] seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
    40. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
    41. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this
    generation, [2] and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
    42. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this
    generation, [3] and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
    43. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
    44. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
    45. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this
    wicked generation [4].

    The "generation" here above, ("genea") is the same "genos-kind-generation" of which the Master speaks in Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, and Luke 21:32, concerning the Parable of the Fig Tree and the fourth "genea-generation" of the man, (for every man has a fig and a vine, whether for the good, or whether for the evil). The fourth generation of the man, (which is likened to the tree) is likewise the generation of the viper-cockatrice, and the coming of a fiery flying Seraph is the fruit thereof; "What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the Most High hath founded Zion".

    Therefore what Yeshua says to the four in Olivet Discourse he says TO ALL, WATCH! (Mark 13:37). :)
  6. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

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    United States
    At Hebrews 9, the apostle Paul wrote that "the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time he appears (not physically, but invisibly, for Heb 9:26 says that Jesus was "manifested once for all time") it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for their salvation."(Heb 9:28)

    Paul further states that "to you who suffered tribulation (or persecution for "righteousness sake", Matt 5:10), relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus (by being obedient to all his commandments, Matt 28:20). These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction."(2 Thess 1:7-9)

    Jesus gave more details, that following the 1st phase of the "great tribulation" whereby the false religious "harlot", Babylon the Great, is made "devastated and naked", completely burning "her with fire" (Rev 17:16) by means of the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" (Matt 24:15, the United Nations leading the "ten horns" or all political governments against her, Rev 17:12), then the 2nd phase begins, with Jesus saying: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and stars will fall from heaven, and the power of the (political, social, educational, commercial) heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation (recognizing that their destruction is imminent), and they will see (or discern) the Son of man coming on the clouds (denotes invisibility) of heaven with power and great glory."(Matt 24:29, 30; Rev 1:7)
  7. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi daq,

    Please would you explain the background or origin of the 'four generations', and give what you posted a bit more context?

    Is this 'four' only applicable to 'generation', or ... how does it work?
  8. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Rocky Wiley.

    If I may, stand on the Word of God. That's a good stand, and I won't fault it; however, do stand on the Word of God IN CONTEXT.

    Yeshua` was talking about the Mount of Transfiguration that was immediately to come! The reason why it was "some" was because not everyone went with Him into the Mount:

    Matthew 16:28-17:13
    16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
    17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
    3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
    4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
    6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
    7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said,
    Arise, and be not afraid.
    8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
    9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,
    Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
    10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
    11 And Jesus answered and said unto them,
    Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
    12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

    13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

    Mark 9:1-13
    1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
    2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
    3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
    4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
    5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
    7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
    8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
    9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
    10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
    11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?
    12 And he answered and told them,
    Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
    13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.


    Luke 9:27-36
    27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
    28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
    29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
    30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
    31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
    32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
    33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
    34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
    35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
    36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

    So, in all three of the synoptic Gospels, the order is the same. Yeshua' makes the statement and then after six days had passed, He climbs a very high mountain with the three disciples, and later on the eighth day, the statement is fulfilled when He was transfigured. The vision that they saw was of Him coming in His Kingdom the way that He would appear IN His Kingdom! It's not that He already came in His Kingdom, but that they SAW THE VISION of how He would come! And, they saw it IN ADVANCE as prophets usually were shown the future!

    He did not return in the first century and has YET to return, for He must return PHYSICALLY and BODILY, just as they saw Him go into the sky PHYSICALLY and BODILY! It doesn't matter what Christians do for the Messiah to return. Yeshua` said to the JEWS in JERUSALEM, "You shall not see me from now on until you can say, 'Baruwkh haba' b'shem YHWH' (which means 'Welcome, Comer in the authority of YaHuWH')." He won't return until the Jews of Jerusalem can welcome Him, Yeshua` or Jesus, back at YAH'S Representative, YAH'S Anointed, YAH'S Messiah, or YAH'S Christ! So far, this they are unwilling to do ... YET!

    Seven hundred years before His timely birth,
    A prophet of great boldness came to tell the men of earth
    That there would come a powerful man anointed to be King;
    Of His surprising miracles the populace would sing:

    Of healing pow’r to make blind see and deaf to hear His voice,
    Of pow’r to even raise the dead and cause men to rejoice!
    Of all these things and so much more the children would sing songs,
    But … only children welcomed Him to remedy their wrongs.

    A song was written years before Isaiah was a child,
    Predicting that Christ won’t fit into systems then gone wild:
    “The builders of the pyr’mid said, ‘The stone does not fit in!’
    When they were done, it capped the work and much to their chagrin!”

    The Messiah was rejected, ridiculed, and slain …;
    But to the shock of all involved, He came to life again!
    But, He did not then cap the work of which the song declared.
    Instead, He left the earth until He hears the message dared:

    “We care not whether you were He of whom the Christians claim;
    We only know we need you now, or we will die in shame!
    We’ve heard of you, Messiah fair, and of your pow’r we read;
    Please come and rescue us, dear Sire, in this our time of need!

    “If you won’t save us now, there will be no one left to save.
    The nation Isra’el is doomed, and we can see our grave.”
    And in the nation Isra’el’s gloomiest, darkest hour,
    Will come the Prince (not yet the King) in majesty and pow’r!

    And when they see Messiah diving down with kingly steed,
    And all the thousands following to aid the ones in need,
    Then shouts of victory will echo all across the land
    With sighs of relief and gasps of awe as He saves with mighty hand!

    And then will He be made a King, accepted now at last!
    And then a King o’er many kings as one by one they ask!
    Ah, but for now He is the Christ——anointed to be King,
    And although He is not King now, he will be in the “Spring ….”

    For now, the “Winter” slowly drags with vernal guarantees,
    And time goes on at God’s own pace with thoughtfulness and ease.
    He fills each age with purpose and a reason for each pause:
    To get the most from every age and weed out all the flaws.

    So boast not, Christian Gentile, for you are grafted in
    To share Messiah’s bounty prematurely! Do not sin!
    If God spared not the people whom He worked with many years,
    What will He do if you should speak against them without tears?

    The Scriptures say so little ’bout this time in which we live,
    Could it be that we’ve read into it much more than He did give?
    Why must we feel that we’re the ones for whom the sun must shine?
    Why do we think we’re all who’ll be at the marriage feast to dine?

    Get rid of that old foolish pride! We’re grafted in, I say!
    This high-and-mighty attitude will come to humbler day!
    It should be crushing blow to think that Christ’s return will be
    When ISRA'EL cries, “If you will come, we’ll surely kneel to Thee.”

    The judgment of which you speak DID happen in the first century A.D.; however, Yeshua` AT THIS TIME in His "ministry" was talking to the Pharisees and the Sadducees in the PRESENCE of all the people that came, so many that they were stepping on one another! Again, if you would take the time to check the context, you will find that Luke 11 matches up with Matthew 16 and Mark 8.

    Matthew 16:1-4
    1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
    2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
    3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
    4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

    Mark 8:11-13
    11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.
    12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
    13 And he left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.

    Yeshua` had just finished feeding the 4000 with 7 loaves and a few small fish. Then, in the presence of all these people, these birds came to Him DEMANDING a sign from "heaven!" He gave them A sign from the "sky": "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning!" However, He told them that no further sign would be given to that generation (except for the sign of the prophet Yonah). He wasn't warning EVERYBODY; He was warning the Pharisees and the Sadducees in the PRESENCE of everybody!
  9. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    As you probably know it is the Passover of the Most High. Therefore please let this be for a little prayer: Heavenly Father, in this most holy day of atoning, help your servants to understand your holy Word and let not there be any leaven found in this bread. Please give your servants understanding like nourishment and healing to the marrow of the bones. Reveal to each in his or her own times and seasons whether these things be true, or whether not, unto your people who are called by your holy name; praying in the name of Yeshua the Messiah, the right arm of the power, and of the strength, and of the glory, and of the Salvation of you, Righteous Father.

    The reason why I said that the Scripture cannot be broken is this:

    Genesis 15:16-18 KJV
    16. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
    17. And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
    18. In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

    Almost immediately in the first book of Torah, and within the Covenant to Abram-Abraham, we see that there is something peculiar about the filling up of iniquity in the fourth generation. In this case it is the iniquity of the Amorites which will come to its fruition in the fourth generation of the children of Israel as they are brought out of Egypt by the mighty right arm of YHWH. The children of Israel will then be used to displace the wicked Amorites from their "land" in the fourth generation, (that is the fourth generation of the seed of Abraham and children of Israel). Then we find again certain statements concerning the third and fourth generation in Torah. The next place it is found is within the Ten Words Decalogue:

    Exodus 20:1-6 KJV
    1. And God spake all these words, saying,
    2. I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
    3. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
    5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
    6. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    And again with the giving of the Ten Words Decalogue the statement is repeated:

    Exodus 34:4-7 KJV
    4. And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.
    5. And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.
    6. And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
    7. Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

    And from these statements therefore of old time has there been the teachings of what is called the "generational curse" in some quarters. However, when we arrive at the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel we find the following passages which seemingly contradict Torah:

    Jeremiah 31:27-30 KJV
    27. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
    28. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
    29. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
    30. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

    Ezekiel 18:1-4 KJV
    1. The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
    2. What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
    3. As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
    Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    Ezekiel 18:19-20 KJV
    Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
    20. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    See the problem here? The prophets do not "change" the Law but rather expound the Law. To say that Jeremiah and Ezekiel have "altered" Torah is blasphemy and to say that they teach the altering or nullification of Torah also means that they would necessarily have to be considered false prophets and their works rejected. There is only one alternative because the Scripture cannot be broken and the foundation of all the holy Scripture is the holy Torah Law. What then is the answer? It is not that we and our fathers have not fully understood that there are necessarily four generations to the one man. This is the only choice if one will continue to believe both Torah and the Prophets who expound Torah such as Jeremiah and Ezekiel. This changes everything, but not the Word, rather it changes everything in our own understanding of it and this is especially true when it comes to the Prophets and the Writings. The following passage is another perfect example. Notice that the "fourth generation" of the man has a "leach with two daughters" attached to the "backside" of the passage, (making a sum total number of seven). Notice also that the fourth generation of the man has teeth like swords and jaw teeth as knives:

    Proverbs 30:11-17 KJV
    11. There is a generation [1] that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
    12. There is a generation [2] that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
    13. There is a generation [3], O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
    14. There is a generation [4], whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.
    15. The horseleach hath two daughters, crying, Give, give. There are three things that are never satisfied, yea, four things say not, It is enough:
    16. The grave; and the barren womb; the earth that is not filled with water; and the fire that saith not, It is enough.
    17. The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it.

    Of old then what metals have swords and knives been made with?
    Surely swords and knives where made from IRON ~

    Daniel 7:7 KJV
    7. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    Torah has therefore not been altered, or done away, or nullified, nor has it been abolished, but rather the old ways of the Pharisaical understandings of the physical way of seeing things, (which leads to bondage) are done away with by the teachings, doctrines, and Testimony of Yeshua. And there be just four "seasons" to the first "aionos-age" of the man: Winter, Spring, Summer, and the Autumn Harvest. And "the trees" do likewise abide within these ordinances of the Maker; and these things have everything to do with the "earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah" which has nothing to do with topography maps of the physical land of Israel proper or geologic events which have occurred there but rather the earthquake in the days of Uzziah concerns the Scripture and what is written about Uzziah king of Judah in the Scripture.
  10. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi Guestman,
    Thanks for your contribution to the discussion. I'm wondering why you think 'appear' could ever be 'invisibly'. How, then, would it still be 'appear'?

    Hi Retrobyter,

    I have never seen that pointed out before, about the Mount of Transfiguration in that context, and will definitely give it further consideration. It's certainly a long way from the arguments of preterism, for which I'm grateful!

    That's an interesting poem, too. ;) I'm taken aback by the idea that Christ is not yet THE King. When He was on earth as a man, He refused to be made 'a king'. and due to the popularisation of certain words in Revelation by Handel's Messiah, and countless other hymns and songs, many of us are used to acknowledging Him King of kings, already, according to His eternal victory at Calvary.

    Hi daq,

    Thank you for your day of atonement prayer, and for your exposition about the fulness which is played out in the fourth generation. I'm still not absolutely certain I 'see' what you're getting at with regard to Jesus' use of the word, 'generation', but I welcome your perspective. :)

    On digging around for an 'earthquake' in the days of Uzziah, I came across 2 Kings 14:6, which seems to vindicate the prophets:

    But the children of the murderers he [Amaziah] slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
  11. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    The 2 Kings 14:6 passage quotes Deuteronomy 24:16 as the reason for not putting to death the children of the "manslayers" or murderers according to the Law. However, that has not to do with the so-called "generational curse" of which I spoke, (which some even still today mistakenly teach because of the passages quoted in my previous post). The Law is the Law and it says the following even in the Ten Commandments Decalogue. Here it is once more because this post will end up at the top of a new page:

    Exodus 20:4-5 KJV
    4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
    5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

    The point is that either this means that every man has "four generations" of himself including "children" (supernal in meaning) whether they be "sons" (as in a
    "son of the prophets" or even a "son of perdition") or "daughters" (as in a man's "beloved daughters of his doctrines" etc.,) otherwise if understood in the strictly literal and physical sense of the Law the physical offspring-children of the man will necessarily be visited upon for the sins and iniquities of their father, (which cannot be true according to the Prophets).

    As for the "earthquake in the days of Uzziah" one will not understand the "earthquakes" mentioned in Matthew 24 or anywhere else if the same does not understand that the man himself is the earth-soil-land in the Scripture and in the eyes of his Creator. The "earthquake" is revealed in the Book of the Prophet Isaiah:

    2 Chronicles 26:16-22 KJV
    16. But when he was strong, his heart was lifted up to his destruction: for he transgressed against the Lord his God, and went into the temple of the Lord to burn incense upon the altar of incense.
    17. And Azariah the priest went in after him, and with him fourscore priests of the Lord, that were valiant men:
    18. And they withstood Uzziah the king, and said unto him, It appertaineth not unto thee, Uzziah, to burn incense unto the Lord, but to the priests the sons of Aaron, that are consecrated to burn incense: go out of the sanctuary; for thou hast trespassed; neither shall it be for thine honour from the Lord God.
    19. Then Uzziah was wroth, and had a censer in his hand to burn incense: and while he was wroth with the priests, the leprosy even rose up in his forehead before the priests in the house of the Lord, from beside the incense altar.
    20. And Azariah the chief priest, and all the priests, looked upon him, and, behold, he was leprous in his forehead, and they thrust him out from thence; yea, himself hasted also to go out, because the Lord had smitten him.
    21. And Uzziah the king was a leper unto the day of his death, and dwelt in a several house, being a leper; for he was cut off from the house of the Lord: and Jotham his son was over the king's house, judging the people of the land.
    22. Now the rest of the acts of Uzziah,
    first and last, did Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, write.

    Behold, Uzziah, first and last:

    Isaiah 1:1 KJV
    1. The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, [1] Jotham, [2] Ahaz, [3] and Hezekiah, [4] kings of Judah.

    First "generation" of Uzziah, (the man is the "house") and the "earthquake" of the same year:

    Isaiah 6:1-4 KJV
    1. In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
    2. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
    3. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
    4. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

    Isaiah 6:4 ASV
    And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

    Third Generation of Uzziah is Ahaz:

    Isaiah 14:28-32 KJV
    In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.
    29. Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina,
    because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
    30. And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.
    31. Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.
    32. What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.

    Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah are another typological portrayal of the same four generations or "seasons" of the one man. The fourth generation of king Uzziah, (which is king Hezekiah) is healed of his physical "boil" and promised that he should also be healed of his "spiritual disease" of "spiritual leprosy" and go up into the House of YHWH in the "Third Day" (which he did in Matthew 27:51-53). The sign given to Uzziah-Hezekiah that his spiritual disease would also be healed was the turning back of the sundial of Ahaz by ten degrees which added fifteen years to the lifespan of his physical days upon the earth.
  12. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    The first part of that article is valid. Preterism is a false doctrine. Much of the rest of that article is based upon supposition, and goes too far in trying to establish a direct connection with the Catholic and Protestant Churches in Europe with Nazism, etc. The Nazi Party didn't just persecute Jews, they persecuted Christians also, and anyone they felt was an undesireable that could cause problems against their Nazi plans. The Catholic Church over its history executed many that were delvers into the occult arts, which quite a number were Jews. That's part of where smear campaigns against the Church has come from.
  13. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi veteran,

    Thanks for your comment. The problem with false doctrine is that it will always appeal to the flesh, regardless of denominational lines, and that's what I thought was interesting - the possibility that the Catholic church had used preterism as a reason to promote its carnal agenda.
  14. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    Futurism and Preterism can both be traced back to the Jesuits of the catholic church.

    To me the problem is you can't mention the destruction of the temple in 70 AD without being tagged by people like veteran as being a preterist.
    People that believe most or all of revelation has come to pass are rather nuts, as are many futurist.

    Futurist have a lot to answer for as well.

    Danial 9:27
    Here's the source of the needed temple that is so widely spoken of. The displaced 70 week, here instead of seeing Jesus your taught to see the AC

    27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; <-Salvation offered to the Jews, a new covenant, salvation was exclusively Jewish, until Paul and Peter were sent to the Gentiles. 70th week fulfilled as salvation went out to the Gentiles.
    But in the middle of the week <- Jesus went to the cross,
    He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. <- the veil of the temple was torn Matthew 27:51 Mark 15:38 , I leave unto you your house desolate, Matthew 23:38
    And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, <-The abominations of the Pharisees, Jesus declared it desolate, Matthew 23:38
    Even until the consummation, which is determined, <-Roman army 70 AD
    Is poured out on the desolate. <-Roman army 70 AD

    2 Thes 2:4
    Here is were dispensationalis will then take you after you believe Dan 9:27 is the AC instead of Jesus Christ, this verse they say confirms a temple building, which by the way Jesus did away with and called it desolate as a result of the new covenant Matthew 26:28 , in Matthew 23:38 desolate, just as it says in Dan 9:27
    A new temple could never be called the temple of God.
    There is already a tread I commented in about the temple. Paul clear repeats himself many times in the NT that we are the temple of God http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17828-which-temple-does-he-stand-in-claiming-to-be-god/

    Romans 11:25
    Here lies the NT verse that supports the displaced 70th week, And the famous "Gods not done with Israel" phrase in-spite of handfuls of verses that claim the promise to Abraham was to the seed instead of the blood decedents Matthew 3:9 . Those that rejected the seed are not of the promise and those that do, even the Gentiles are of the promise.
    This verse is interpreted to excuse all Jews from believing in Christ and at some future point Jesus will reveal himself and they will all be saved in spite of the teaching of Jesus. I recently asked someone here to show me another verse in the NT that says Jews will receive salvation because they are Jews.

    So there you have the shaky key stones of dispensationalism. Which for the most part can also be called futurist, IMO thats not much to stand on.
    Dan 9:27
    2 Thes 2:4
    Romans 11:25
  15. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Lot of historical revisionism going on today, and those on Preterist doctrine are guilty of that too. The early Church NEVER taught any such idea that Christ's second coming was represented by the events of 70 A.D. Jerusalem. Nor did they teach the majority of events in our Lord's Book of Revelation or His Olivet Discourse as being already fulfilled back then, which Preterism does.

    Even Eusebius of Caesarea's own words are often taken out of context by Preterists to try and create more historical foundation for their doctrines. The doctrine was created and pushed by a few radicals in the Church over time, and some of the ignorant ones here on this forum want us to believe that it was an early Church doctrine? Foolishness!

    But are there things in Christ's Olivet Discourse that reveal a type of fulfillment pattern of events that happened with Jerusalem's 70 A.D. destruction by the Romans? Yes. And THAT is where many have failed in understanding our Lord's Olivet Discourse, because it only served as a type of PATTERN for that time, with the ACTUAL fulfillment of events He gave it for still future, which is for the very end of this present world. Only God's Word can do this, Scripture covering events that appear to point to one time, but is really for another time in actual fulfillment.

    We see this 'pattern' of type fulfillments given also within the OT Books of God's prophets, especially in the Book of Isaiah (some Isaiah chapters Bible scholars call 'The Apocalypse of Isaiah', because their events are particularly for the end of days, our future. But interspersed within those are 'historical' accounts of events that were... history, already fulfilled as TYPES. This is why Apostle Paul commanded us to study the OT events in 2 Cor.11, because they serve as "ensamples" for us for the end of days. He was not just talking about examples of people's interactions in the OT as ensamples, but many of the OT events themselves serving as TYPES that form a pattern for future events.

    The way God gave us His Word concerning prophetic events sometimes is like a road that has available forks off into another direction, and if one is not paying attention by rightly dividing the timelines one can stumble onto a different path and be led off a cliff. That is what has happened with some's wayward interpretations of Christ's Olivet Discourse with trying to say it was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

    One such ensample is historical Babylon itself in comparison with the "great city" in Revelation 16-18. Even the Isaiah 21 phrase "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" is quoted in Rev.14 & 18 to show the Babylon for the endtimes is an 'ensample' from historical Babylon. Why would our LORD put that there? Clearly, He wants us to go back... into the Old Testament and STUDY about the historical events of old Babylon, of what happenned, and His judgments upon her. What especially is revealed when we do that? We discover how the king of Babyon of history setup a golden idol image in false worship requiring all to bow in worship to it at the sound of the psalter. In the latter part Rev.13 we discover the same... kind of pattern with the "another beast" setting up the "image of the beast" for idol worship in the end of days. Daniel and his fellows refused to bow to it and were delivered up to the king of Babylon for questioning, and then sent for execution. Likewise our Lord Jesus warns us in His Olivet Discourse about some of us being delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan in the last days to give a Testimony for Him.

    So the more one learns about the OT events serving in many ensamples for the end is an easy way our Lord Jesus imparted MORE information about the end without having to repeat Himself. It also is a way He SEALED the one true interpretation of many endtime events. Once this part of His Word is understood, then you can know, for certain, what the real events are along with their proper timelines. Yet this level of Bible study is seldom taught in the Churches, although I know many good pastors understand it.
  16. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi veteran,

    Thanks again for taking time to explain more fully how you're thinking about these things.

    I do see what you're saying. I find myself frequently frustrated with what seems to me to be a carnal (unregenerate mind/spiritually blind) approach to what is written in prophecy, and far less studied than you and Rex, both.

    I've benefitted somewhat from reading Tyndale's Prologues to both his OT (part only, as he was killed before he could finish) and NT translations, which capture some of the best interpretation and advice to Christians which I have read. (My reading is quite limited...) You are echoing his stance on the matter of patterns, which we should understand, and then restating that the Lord will eventually 'repay', when He metes out His vengeance.

    Like Rex, I find the whole business of chopping off the 70th week from the 69th week, troublesome to say the least, and in view of what you've written in your last post, I wonder whether the fulfilment of our Lord's prophecies at Olivet and in Revelation need any other context than that which the gospel writers give them at the time?

    I am going to reply in the temple thread with the Bible verses which give room for the behaviour of unbelieving Jews/Israelites, which we see today.
  17. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I have no problem with the final 70th week being for the end, mainly because we're now living in the period of the end and should clearly be able to understand the things Daniel could not in his days, nor others down the road after him, not until our times, and certainly not until Israel became a nation again and their plans to build another temple in our days. Not even Tyndale saw that far ahead, nor anyone until after 1948.
  18. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    What I find frustrating is when people ignore the historical context of prophecy. It seems to me that the spiritual exegetical approach to OT prophecies is to do what Christ and the apostles did - recognize Christ as their fulfillments. This is a sound, biblical model to follow. All of the OT prophecies were before Christ, so it makes sense that we would find their fulfillments (or many of them) in Christ. This same rule can be applied to prophecies regarding Israel and Judah/Jerusalem.

    Ignoring this rule leads to the embracing of wild, apocalyptic, futuristic scenarios based solely on speculation and loose readings of scripture. That seems to me to be the ungrounded and truly carnal approach.
  19. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    That wreaks of Preterism, a false doctrine of men.
  20. 1peterlight

    1peterlight New Member

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    what would you type in to google earth to see earthquake remnant. also I didn't realize it but you cannot see the dome of the rock from google earth, that's strange.