Christianity as a Closed System

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Karl Peters

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Very judgmental post. Claiming God told you to write so hardly holds up to scrutiny.
HA - don't you hear from Him????? Even Today???

We all wind up showing people who we are when we write. I show, but you don't believe it, that I hear from Him. You show that you can not even believe someone can and should hear from Him!!

And I back up what I write with both words He told me and words from the Bible, both of which proved your conclusion wrong, and you think that judgmental? It is not me who judges you, but your own words and the words of God judge you. You are either going to start believing in Him and that means listening to Him, or your are not going to. The choice is yours!! You get to make that choice!! As for Him; He even love you, just like it is written and I quoted you. So even you, like ANYONE, can choose to open up to Him and and start listening to Him. The choice is yours, just like it is everyone's choice. He is not exclusive!! He made you, so if you decide to actually talk to Him and listen to Him you can.

However, just like you even noted, repentance of your ways is going to be needed before you choose to listen to Him!!!

And we will know when you do actually start listening to Him, because you will be sooooooo amazed by Him that you will start pointing other people to Him and not yourself!!! Though you can be sure, as seen in yourself, that others will think you judgmental when you do actually tell them what He has to say - and that being the He wishes that none should perish, so that all should believe in Him and seek Him as the Lord of lords and King of kings - who is even the Word of God, because He has and owns the words of God!!

So reads this verse and do it:

Is 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool.

You should have already gone to Him!!! If you had you would be testifying about Him and not you. And you would have know that verse is to everyone!!!
 

St. SteVen

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What a sad thread!! Does anyone here even know Him?
So, you support Christianity as a closed system?
No questions, or critical thinking allowed?
Information withheld to entrap followers? All good?

Do you know where the Bible you quote came from? Who gave it to us?
 
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Wrangler

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Christianity is exclusive

Sounds like hairsplitting.

Visitor: "Is this an open church?"
Doorkeeper: "Yes."
Visitor: "May I enter?"
Doorkeeper: "No."
Visitor: "Why not?"
Doorkeeper: "It's exclusive."

Dude! You have to embrace a valid application of exclusivity. I think you know I was not talking about attending a church service. I was talking about the conditions of salvation.

Equality and inclusiveness are false?
(not what you wrote, I know)
Please explain, thanks.

The concepts of equality and inclusiveness have been perverted. This is what the Devil does; he perverts the meaning of truth and words, especially God's words.

Guess what? Not everything is equal. Tigers and Lions are both felines and belong to the same genus. However, at the next level of detail, they belong to different species. The devil's ploy is to cause people to lose the capacity of discernment. Sure, there is equality at the general or genus level but there is NOT equality at the Differentia of species level.

Guess what else? Not everything is inclusive. This is why doors have locks and accounts have names on them, specific names.

If you cannot reject false Equality and false inclusiveness at a conceptual level, no examples of explanation will help.
 
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St. SteVen

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AWESOME - Someone who understands that He will draw all people to Himself!!!!!

YES - THAT IS WHAT HE DOES!!
These too?

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
 
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St. SteVen

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Dude! You have to embrace a valid application of exclusivity. I think you know I was not talking about attending a church service. I was talking about the conditions of salvation.
The "conditions of salvation"? Please explain, thanks.
I thought the atonement was sufficient. (paid in full)

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
The concepts of equality and inclusiveness have been perverted. This is what the Devil does; he perverts the meaning of truth and words, especially God's words.
Agree.
Guess what? Not everything is equal. Tigers and Lions are both felines and belong to the same genus. However, at the next level of detail, they belong to different species. The devil's ploy is to cause people to lose the capacity of discernment. Sure, there is equality at the general or genus level but there is NOT equality at the Differentia of species level.

Guess what else? Not everything is inclusive. This is why doors have locks and accounts have names on them, specific names.
Agree.
If you cannot reject false Equality and false inclusiveness at a conceptual level, no examples of explanation will help.
I only wanted you to explain. Thanks.
 

Karl Peters

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These too?

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
YES!!!

If we actually take time to listen to the Lord with any regularity, we find out that the bible is correct. He really does care for people and really does not want anyone to perish!! So we all have our choice to make, and that choice is to believe in Him and that He is their to be inquired of and listened to. He is there to teach us, anyone of us who chooses Him. Sadly, not everyone does choose Him, but He is available to anyone. He is the Savior of this world, and that is what we find out when we find Him.

Sadly, it is also written:

Is 30: 9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons,
Sons who refuse to listen
To the instruction of the LORD;

Too often we find 'false sons' who refuse to listen to Him. They want the exclusive rights to God, because they want the chief seats. So it sometimes seems like our churches are exclusive, or a closed system. Yet that is not following Jesus Christ, that is following religion.

It's a good thread, but a sad thread. It exposes the nature of people and how we don't actually want to hear from Him who is love.
 
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Wrangler

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You should have already gone to Him!!! If you had you would be testifying about Him and not you.
There's no connection with me and us already going to him with the OP premise. Just mystical BS.

Sir, if you don't want to talk about the premise of the OP, Christianity being a closed system, feel free to frequent other threads. Don't throw your 'God told me to' bash everyone here weight around.
 

Karl Peters

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We should know the condition of salvation is belief in Jesus Christ, right???

The atonement was not a condition, it was what make the condition of belief in Jesus Christ possible!

Yet if anyone believes in Jesus Christ, the believe in who He is!!!

For example:

He is the Word of God. So, if you believe in Him you believe He is the One who has the words of God for you.

He is the Lord of lords. If you believe in Him you believe He is the Lord of lords, thus is someone who gives you instructions.

He is the Teacher. So, if you believe in Him you believe He is the One who teaches you as the Word of God and the Lord.

He is the One who said He would never leave you. So, if you believe in Him you believe that He is always with you to be inquired of.

He is the Saviour of the world, as pointed out a couple of posts earlier. So if you believe in Him you believe that He is available to the entire world. So no exclusiveness, and no closed systems!! It's just believers and non-believers who could be believers!
 
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Karl Peters

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There's no connection with me and us already going to him with the OP premise. Just mystical BS.

Sir, if you don't want to talk about the premise of the OP, Christianity being a closed system, feel free to frequent other threads. Don't throw your 'God told me to' bash everyone here weight around.
Already going to Him?

Did you not read that Today is the day we listen to Him???

And as for what God tells me - He tells me to get people to seek Him as the Word of God. Yet He also told me that He made my head as hard as their heads -their referring to those people that should listen to Him but don't! It is like what He told Ezekiel, and you still need to seek Him, Today!

Ezek 3: 4-9 Then He said to me, “Son of man, go to the house of Israel and speak with My words to them. “For you are not being sent to a people of unintelligible speech or difficult language, but to the house of Israel, nor to many peoples of unintelligible speech or difficult language, whose words you cannot understand. But I have sent you to them who should listen to you; yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. Surely the whole house of Israel is stubborn and obstinate. “Behold, I have made your face as hard as their faces and your forehead as hard as their foreheads. “Like emery harder than flint I have made your forehead. Do not be afraid of them or be dismayed before them, though they are a rebellious house.”

He gave me and still does give me very similar instructions as was given to Ezekiel for very similar reasons. That reason being that His people tend to get stubborn and refuse to go to Him, now! So how many times should a person be told to seek the Lord? And if a person does seek the Lord they know He does not even want the stubbornness of a person to keep them from Him. So He uses the tools (people) that He has made Himself to help them. But will they listen? If they don't listen to me telling them to listen to Him, then it proves they don't listen to Him!! Can you not see that?
 

Wrangler

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So if you believe in Him you believe that He is available to the entire world. So no exclusiveness, and no closed systems!!
Totally wrong!!!

If means both, exclusive and closed.

‘Except for the exceptions, there are no exceptions’ is just a fancy way of saying there are exceptions.
 

Enoch111

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I was wondering, how many others have had similar experiences with church, or Christianity in general?
So what's your beef? What did the apostles do in the book titled "the Acts of the Apostles"? In God's eyes there are only two groups -- the saved and the lost. If you are saved it is your duty to PROCLAIM the Gospel to the lost. This is not "touchy feely" since the prospect of eternal damnation for rejecting the Gospel is always there. The love and grace of God must be clearly presented, the deity of Christ and His finished work of redemption must also be clearly presented. At the same time eternal torment in the Lake of Fire for those who obey not the Gospel must also be presented. The Bible says that GOD NOW COMMANDS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT.
 
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Enoch111

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Most Christians block the world out, if they can do it... Jesus died to save the world...
The term "the world" has two applications in Scripture: (a) the world of humanity for whom Christ died and (b) the world systems controlled by Satan, which include all false religions, ideologies, philosophies, and beliefs. So on one hand we are to love those for whom Christ died by reaching out to them with the Gospel, and AT THE SAME TIME we are to hate the world systems and their anti-Christian stance.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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I would add...

John 12:32 NIV
And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
That is true. He is fair. He calls all, and that is what He tells us to do, spread the Gospel to all. We cooperate with this drawing. But not all hear, only His sheep and many resist and reject it. And so the responsibility is ours.
 

bbyrd009

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This is an extension of a previous topic.


As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system.
Which had an odd antithetical twist. You can't DO evangelism without talking to the "lost". (those outside the closed system)
And only mature evangelicals were even allowed to do it, for fear you might be talked out of the system.

Evangelism was a "required" activity that involved talking AT the "lost", not talking WITH the "lost".
People became projects. And if the "project" seemed like a waste of time,
you could "shake the dust off your feet" and absolve yourself of any responsibility toward them.
(their blood not being on your hands)

In preparation for talking at the "lost" projects, we were armed with Christian Apologetics. (counter-arguments)
You were bound to encounter resistance to the "message" from the closed system.
The "success" of the evangelist depended on the strength of their counter-arguments.

Much more to say about this. Everyone and everything outside the closed system was held in suspicion.
Which required negative opinions about all of those things, so as to assure keeping a safe distance.

I was wondering, how many others have had similar experiences with church, or Christianity in general?

Or...

Thoughts from those who would defend Christianity, or a church, as a closed system. Seeing value in it.
word
Paul tells us "when in Rome," but there seems to be precious little Witness (supporting vv) for that...
as well as a couple other vital principles, seems to me
weird

it seems like Christians are the very ones refusing to enter, and barring the door, for the most part
 

St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
John 12:32 NIV
And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
That is true. He is fair. He calls all, and that is what He tells us to do, spread the Gospel to all. We cooperate with this drawing. But not all hear, only His sheep and many resist and reject it. And so the responsibility is ours.
That seems contradictory. Maybe I misunderstand you.

In reference to the Gospel (message?) you write, "... not all hear, only His sheep and many resist and reject it."
How can they reject it if that can't hear?

Perhaps you believe that the atonement was ONLY for the Elect? See 1 John 2:2

I don't think salvation is up to us at all. It was settled long ago between two men.
Adam #1 and Adam #2. See scripture below.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 

St. SteVen

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Paul tells us "when in Rome,"
Hmm... I don't recall that one. Reference please. thanks.
I thought that was a modern idiom.
word
Paul tells us "when in Rome," but there seems to be precious little Witness (supporting vv) for that...
as well as a couple other vital principles, seems to me
weird

it seems like Christians are the very ones refusing to enter, and barring the door, for the most part
Sorry to be thick-headed, but I don't follow what you are writing here at all.
You quoted the OP, if that helps.
 

bbyrd009

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Hmm... I don't recall that one. Reference please. thanks.
I thought that was a modern idiom.
its a ref to a Pauline sermon, only ive been using that slang way of referring to it for so long ill have to recall the phrasing lol
i can get to it at lunch if no one beats me to it
@amadeus would know
 
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