Christianity is NOT Derived From Judaism

[Davy]

I understand, Davy. I come from a dispensationalist background, but I left that many years ago, so this one we simply disagree.

This has nothing to whatsoever to do with Dispensationalism. I don't know who taught you that, but Dispensationalism is from John Darby's false Pre-trib Rapture theory. He developed it to enforce the idea of the Church being raptured to heaven prior to the great tribulation with Israel under a separate plan of salvation. I never believed in that, nor in a Pre-trib rapture, and still don't.

 

[Davy]

Judaism is the religion that is based on the following the Torah, which God gave to Israel through Moses.

No it isn't. There is a difference between the 'old covenant' which God gave Israel and later Judaism.

The religion of Judaism came out of Judah's Babylon captivity. That's when the Babylonian Talmud originated, which is not Torah, but only the Jew's leaders interpretation with added TRADITIONS OF MEN.

Matt 15:3
3 But He answered and said unto them, "Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?"
KJV

Matt 23:1-10
23 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to His disciples,
2 Saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, Which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."
KJV

Matt 15:9
9 But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
KJV

 

[Davy]

It would be impossible for someone to follow the Torah without following traditions for how to follow it.

That dog just won't hunt.

Jesus showed how the Jewish leaders were NOT keeping God's commandments, but instead had replaced them with THEIR TRADITIONS OF MEN.

If you are going to claim to be a Christian, which means a follower of Jesus Christ, then you need to follow what Lord Jesus said, and not what the unbelieving Jews and their 'deceived lackeys' say.

 

[Davy]

And your true Christian nature and character are showing....you have not learned anything....
Again, find the word Promise in the Old Testament scriptures.

That is so... FUNNY, you trying to make YOUR OWN REQUIREMENTS of what the Scripture SHOULD SAY according to YOUR OWN LIKING. God will have you in derision.

 

[Davy]

Again, Judaism is the religion that is based on following the Torah and that is the religion that Jesus set a sinless example for us to practice.

No it is not. Judaism came out of Judah's captivity to Babylon. How is it that you don't understand the corruptions among the "house of Judah" when they went captive to Babylon by king Nebuchadnezzar? They even quit using the Hebrew language and switched to Aramaic! Only much later would they return to using Hebrew as their natural language in the past couple of centuries.

Matt 15:9
9 But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
KJV

 

[Davy]

Hi @Davy, regarding your starting post in this thread.
I agree with the main point you are making, namely that Christianity is not derived from rabbinic Judaism or from the traditions of the Pharisees, but from God's revelation fulfilled in Jesus Christ. I do think, however, that a few historical distinctions are worth making so that the argument is as strong as possible, both biblically and historically.

The New Testament itself distinguishes between the commandments of God and the traditions that had grown up around them. Jesus repeatedly confronted the religious leaders, not for believing Moses, but for nullifying God's word through their traditions.

....

I understand all that. Yet the Jew's religion came out of the corruptions of their Babylon captivity era and thereafter. It doesn't matter when the Jerusalem Talmud or Babylonian Talmud was actually compiled as a text. The corruptions of the scribes and priesthood had already taken place.

Few brethren in Christ are aware of that period of corruption among the Jews, because they don't study Old Testament history as they should. Even the slaughter by the Jews in Esther 9 places that whole book in question of being actually written by true Jews, but instead by the false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" instead, those who crept in among Judah over a long period of time and called themselves Jews, but are not, like Jesus said (Rev.2:9; Rev.3:9).

Thus true brother Judah gets blamed for agreeing to have Lord Jesus crucified, when it was the false Jews that sat in Moses' seat that were the real instigators of Christ's crucifixion and of the "synagogue of Satan."

And even today in most Churches, what Jesus showed in Rev.2 & 3 about that "synagogue of Satan", they simply apply those to mean deceived Jews of the seed of Israel, when Jesus was actually pointing to pagan foreigners that began creeping in among the children of Israel, and especially among the tribe of Judah, throughout Old Testament history. They cannot handle the fact of Lord Jesus' teaching that there is an actual people ordained to be servants of Satan and to work against Christ and His people. (See Jesus' explanation of His parable of the tares of the field in Matthew 13; and Jude 4).

Thus Lord Jesus dished out rebuke to those FALSE Jews that had crept into Moses' seat and were distorting the true Word of God. He had no room for a bleeding hearts message to them, even though IF... they also will turn from evil they too can be saved by Him.

 

[Grailhunter]

That is so... FUNNY, you trying to make YOUR OWN REQUIREMENTS of what the Scripture SHOULD SAY according to YOUR OWN LIKING. God will have you in derision.

You are talking about promises right?

 

[David in NJ]

Conclusion?

3 Strikes your OUT

 

[Davy]

No, that is irrelevant because Christianity didn't develop out of the Samaritan religious practices; it developed out of Second-Temple Judaism. I've mentioned several core aspects of Christianity that were adapted from Second Temple Judaism, including Monotheism, worship of the Jewish God יהוה, the Hebrew scriptures, our understanding of Sin, Atonement, the concepts of Messiah and prophets, Baptism, the Eucharist....

Afraid not. Judaism was a corruption that began by the crept in unawares among the tribe of Judah mainly, like the Kenites, one of the nations of Canaan that became Israel's scribes. Don't you remember the scribes with the false-Jew Pharisees following Jesus around seeking a way to execute Him?

And before Jesus' 1st coming, the "house of Judah" (Jews) at Jerusalem-Judea had fallen into pagan idol worship more than once, even at one time sacrificing their own children in the fire of Molech worship! (Jeremiah 32:35)

Today's Jews, and most Churches, hide those events recorded in Bible history. It's because of how even many Christian Churches today have been taken over by the false Jews that hide in them, and instead preach doctrines of men.

 

[Davy]

You are talking about promises right?

What don't you understand about Apostle Paul declaring that God gave Abraham The Gospel Faith BY PROMISE first, before the giving of the law?

 

[David in NJ]

The Mishnah and Talmud are just the Rabbis' interpretations on how Torah, the Writings, and the Prophets should be applied to real life. Baptists, Pentecostals, Methodists, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox all have their own interpretations of the Old and New Testament writings. As does every Tom, Dick, and Harriet on this forum.

i do agree with your synopsis but we must be careful not to rule out the Holy Spirit

Some of us have the Holy Spirit of Truth by which we know & understand the Holy Scriptures = as Promised by GOD

 

[Grailhunter]

What don't you understand about Apostle Paul declaring that God gave Abraham The Gospel Faith BY PROMISE first, before the giving of the law?

Simply noting that the word promise does not occur in the Old Testament.
The Gospel Faith BY PROMISE first, before the giving of the law?.....Sounds like word salad.

 

[Davy]

Simply noting that the word promise does not occur in the Old Testament.
The Gospel Faith BY PROMISE first, before the giving of the law?.....Sounds like word salad.

It doesn't have to appear in The Old Testament; Apostle Paul told you that God gave His blessing to Abraham BY PROMISE, and Abraham believed, and it was counted to Abraham as righteousness. And that is about... The Gospel of Jesus Christ. (See Galatians 3).

 

[amigo de christo]

Does the Mosaic law apply to Jews?

Father abraham send lazarous to speak to my family that they not end up here .
THEY HAVE MOSES and the PROPHETS
if they hear not Moses and the law , the prophets , THEY WILL NOT b e persauded though ONE rose from the dead .
AND THAT ONE who DID RISE FROM THE DEAD , IS THE VERY ONE that MOSES , the law and the prophets POINTED TOO .
if they HEAR NOT the law and the prophets .
Many might cliam to be a child of abraham , even of issac, might even cliam to believe moses and the prophets .
But had they beleived MOSES they had BELEIVED JESUS for HE spoke of HIM .
The flesh will truly truly NOT PROFIT one single man or woman or any born of woman .
FAITH IN , THE WORD that became flesh , yes that BE JESUS CHRIST , is what profits .
AND the BORN AGAIN beleive on HIM . As for this sheep
I shall point too and ONLY POINT TO CHRIST JESUS and all things HE did teach .
And i invite all to get into those scrips . FOR THE scrips WOULD ONLY , THE torah would only
the prophets would only CONFIRM THE TESITMONY OF GOD that HE gave of THE SON .
And that is a fact my friend . Salvation came not of man , BUT OF GOD .
For with man it is impossible , but NOT WITH GOD . JESUS is the WHOLE SOLUTION and THE ONLY HOPE THERE TRULY IS ..............

 

[David in NJ]

the Hebrew scriptures, our understanding of Sin, Atonement, the concepts of Messiah and prophets, Baptism,

These Pre-Date the second Temple.
They also Pre-Date the first Temple.
They also Pre-Date Abraham

Christianity Pre-Dates Judaism, because CHRIST means MESSIAH and MESSIAH was Prophesied FIRST by GOD

 

[amigo de christo]

These Pre-Date the second Temple.
They also Pre-Date the first Temple.
They also Pre-Date Abraham

Christianity Pre-Dates Judaism, because CHRIST means MESSIAH and MESSIAH was Prophesied FIRST by GOD

Correct . the law was LATER ADDED due to trangressions , TILL THE PROMISE came .
For before Even moses , even abraham , even adam , JESUS WAS AND IS

 

[Grailhunter]

It doesn't have to appear in The Old Testament; Apostle Paul told you that God gave His blessing to Abraham BY PROMISE, and Abraham believed, and it was counted to Abraham as righteousness. And that is about... The Gospel of Jesus Christ. (See Galatians 3).

I understand that.
The Abrahamic Promises took up a couple months in college.
What do you think they are?

 

[WitnessX]

And your point is still irrelevant because it's an historical anachronism. Christianity developed out of what historians call "Second-Temple Era Judaism", when the Levitical sacrificial system was still in operation. The Rabbinical writings such as the Mishnah and the Talmud came into being after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD and the Bar Kochba revolt in 130 AD. This developed into modern "Rabbinic Judaism". Kabballah developed even later, around the 12th and 13th centuries.

False. It was always Gods plan for salvation to all…Jonah was the first witness to this, then Peter to Cornelius, the Paul. The Mystery in Eph 3:9 revealed, God knowing the beginning from the end.

The second temple never had the Ark of the Covenant nor was it ever indwelled by the Glory Cloud. That’s the whole point of Obediance being better than sacrifice….they weren’t even adhering to the mosaic covenant behind close doors…plenty of OT books and Jesus Himself makes this perfectly clear.

Judaism is heresy, denies Jesus is the Christ and therefore is Antichrist. Jewish myths and legends of which we are expressly told to stay away from.

Titus 1:13-14 (KJV) 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Titus 1:16 (KJV) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (KJV) 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

1 Timothy 4:7 (KJV) But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself [rather] unto godliness.

1 Timothy 1:4 (KJV) Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].

You and anyone else pushing the judeo-Christian Narrative is ignorant or a liar.

Jesus is clear what Judaism is and what it does in Matt 23.