Slelen, I know about this problem with Muslim converts. It goes on less than 20 miles from me and many chruches refuse to even try to evangelise Muslims because of the persecution and the damageed lives it can cause. When a person leaves Islam they loose their friends, families, their home and possibly even their lives. They often have to flee and seek police protection because they are hated so much. The Qu'ran preaches thatt he only way out of Islam is death and that it is a Muslim's duty to oppress apostates. I can udnerstand them doing this in the third world but in Britain they do it and we have freedom of religion,. Christians in Muslim countries have very limited freedom but Muslims in western countries can do what they want. Where is the fairness?
Christianity, Judaism, Christianity
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If that's the case I would find myself another church. There was a thread the other day speaking about this very thing "or verses". Loving your father or mother more than Jesus. I do believe that in this case, "salvation vs family" the verses become clear,
Matthew 10
[sup]34[/sup] “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. [sup]35[/sup] For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; [sup]36[/sup] and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’[sup][e][/sup] [sup]37[/sup] He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. [sup]38[/sup] And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. [sup]39[/sup] He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
To the OP question the answer IMO is not whether they worship the same God but rather do they accept the offering of salvation "Jesus" If they don't I assure you they don't know God the "I AM ".
Something else, I believe that you must have a proper understanding of Jesus and salvation to be born again of the Spirit.
Paul said in Romans
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
2. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
He here is talking about presenting your bodies and minds to God. Paul said be transformed by the renewing of your mind. James said receive with meekness the engrafted Word which is able to save your soul. The engrafted word will renew your mind and save your soul. They both said a similar thing about renewing restoring and saving the mind or soul.
The 23 Psalm said a similar thing... Psalms 23:3 He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake.
He restores my soul.
Paul then reflects on this renewed mind, speaking of himself in Romans chapter 7. The last verse says.
[sup]24[/sup] O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [sup]25[/sup] I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Like I said above I believe that being born of the Spirit happens with a proper understanding or a renewing of the mind by the word of God.
Romans 10
[sup]17[/sup] So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 10
[sup]42[/sup] And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. [sup]43[/sup] To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”[sup]44[/sup] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. [sup]45[/sup] And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Something else, I believe that you must have a proper understanding of Jesus and salvation to be born again of the Spirit.
Paul said in Romans
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
2. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
He here is talking about presenting your bodies and minds to God. Paul said be transformed by the renewing of your mind. James said receive with meekness the engrafted Word which is able to save your soul. The engrafted word will renew your mind and save your soul. They both said a similar thing about renewing restoring and saving the mind or soul.
The 23 Psalm said a similar thing... Psalms 23:3 He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake.
He restores my soul.
Paul then reflects on this renewed mind, speaking of himself in Romans chapter 7. The last verse says.
[sup]24[/sup] O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [sup]25[/sup] I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Like I said above I believe that being born of the Spirit happens with a proper understanding or a renewing of the mind by the word of God.
Romans 10
[sup]17[/sup] So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 10
[sup]42[/sup] And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. [sup]43[/sup] To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”[sup]44[/sup] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. [sup]45[/sup] And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
What is worse losing their souls or losing their families or losing their lives. Jesus said I am the way....... No man comes to the Father but by me. If we don't tell them about Jesus then we are not doing what we are called to do. It is amazing that a Church is more concerned with the fact that they are going to have problems than with their souls being saved.
I know what your sayuing. They are not evangelising Muslims because of the damage other Muslims will do to their bodies and not thinking about the souls that will be lost. Tis is why it is so hard to convert Muslims beuse you have to think aobut the big picture. If a Muslim comes to you wanting to know aobut CHristianity then you share the Gospel, but what if he comes and say's "I've decided I want to be Baptized?" You don't withhold Baptizm but you do have to think about that person's welfare. How do they tell their family? How will they react? How do you hel[p them when things go wrong?
Thjere was a big "churches together" meeting between our local churches. 2 Anglcian, 2 Baptist, 2 Methodist and 1 Catholic and out of them only one had a mission towards conerting Muslims and providing support for them after conversion.
Nevertheless the sad fact is that there are very very few Muslims interested in covnersion in the western world, such is the ingrained hostility towards Christianity.
BTW: Don't anyone tell me to find another church.
Thjere was a big "churches together" meeting between our local churches. 2 Anglcian, 2 Baptist, 2 Methodist and 1 Catholic and out of them only one had a mission towards conerting Muslims and providing support for them after conversion.
Nevertheless the sad fact is that there are very very few Muslims interested in covnersion in the western world, such is the ingrained hostility towards Christianity.
BTW: Don't anyone tell me to find another church.
Satan doesn't bother about fairness but human beings should and the UN shoudl do a lot more to help Christians in Muslim countiries because. The Pope is trying to hget more freedom for Christians in Muslim countries and though I' not Papist I do support him in that.
Satan is a master at legalities. He uses the freedoms of Christian nations to get the people lazy and then he slips in like a snake at night and slowly chokes them to death and they do not even realize they have been caught.
True but what do we do about it. These freedoms are what we in thw est pride ourselves on, without them we would be living in the middle ages. I suppose freedom though we need it is a double edged sword and it can work either way. I jsut wish that Muslims living in the west could respect western values and ways of life instead of always making us out to be greedy, lazy degerenerates. Well atleast one wife is enough for us
Since the OT is mostly about Israel, have you discussed this with Muslims? In other words, how do most Muslims you know feel about the Nation of Israel?
Now, I deal with them only over the Internet. Most are pro-Palestine and anti-Isreal.
Muslims throw any Bible verses they don't like into their enormous dumpster.
Like Mormons, etc. their book comes ahead of the Holy Scriptures.
99% of Jews I talk with are liberal American Jews, who have no use for the precious Hebrew Scriptures.
Bit presumptious as messiah wondered Himself if there would be found true faith on the earth ...
You practice all 34,000+ denominations at once, eh ?
I would feel sorry for you if you hadnt already said you believe their g-d to be the same as yours.
Wary of speaking out ? I'm currently reading Foxe's Book of Martyrs, lot of those stories are from the UK.
I dont know you and we have disagreed on topics before --- please dont take my words personally, only consider this;
Rev. 3:16
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
We all have some serious times ahead of us, may we not forget those living where this is already an issue --- here in the U.S. there is still time to stop this encroaching Islamic beast.
Templar, please forgive my earlier harsh words.
I have been monitoring religious and atheist thought in different countries for awhile now, and was pretty much shocked to hear that the UK is now considered a secular nation.
Do you not see the correlation here that as a country has further and further strayed from the Almighty, that the muslim invaders have settled in and taken hold more and more ?
It is very sad to see ancient churches become Mosques and to hear that the Archbishop of Canterbury supports Sharia. I think he has lost his way a long time ago. Probably when he was made a Druid by a Welsh pagan group at a hippy festival. Very very sad. Saying that; Archbishop Sentamu has lived under Idi Amin's rule and knows what persecution is like. He spent years in prison being beaten and tortured just for taking aprt in a peaceful demonstration andstill stands up for the rights of Christians and for social justice.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I share your sadness. Any church that produced CS Lewis and GK Chesterton had to be orthodox at some point, although I think they probably felt much like you do. I think we are have to endure this present age by relying on Christ - despite our church leadership.
I still feel badly about the Hagia Sophia - it was such a beautiful Christian Church - but then I remember that buildings will pass away and are really not worth investing much thought in, anyway.
Speaking of buildings: If I had my way thwe Muslims would be driven off the Temple mount and a great Cathedral erected on the site for the use of all Christian denominations as a symbol of CHristian unity. In fact I would want Muslims out of Jerusalem all together. They would still ahve Mecca and Medina. Jerusalem is the third must important city for Muslims but the must important for Christians and Jew so we should take precedence. Mohammed can't have ascended into heaven there because I don't think Heaven would have him. When Muslims saw it, it was probably just an illusion sent to trick them.
Can youimagine the repurcussions if that happened?
Can youimagine the repurcussions if that happened?
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
From the Jews, Orthodox. Roman Catholics, or Muslims?
I am not sure if you know the story of a building in Jerusalem, which is claimed and shared (section by section) by Coptic, Orthodox and Roman Catholics - I cannot remember if it is the Church of the Nativity or the Cathedral at the Mount of the Skull where Jesus was crucified - anyway, fights break out all the time between all the group - fist fights!! The Coptic church has the roof of the building - but they have to pass through the other sections to get there and if they pass through late or the wrong way - a Holy war breaks out - it is insane.
So, as beautiful as these places are, they have only caused division, rather than unity.
Oh yeah, I remember now - it is the Cathedral over the spot they believe the tomb of Jesus is. Protestants think it is somewhere else because they got to the site too late and never got a piece of the building - they are probably better off,
No! I'm taLking about thw Temple mount, not the church of the Holy Sepulchre or the Church of the Nativity.
As for recurcussions of course I mean from Muslims, who else. Theyw oudl be furious woudn't they. This can't really happen becuase it would cause WW3
As for recurcussions of course I mean from Muslims, who else. Theyw oudl be furious woudn't they. This can't really happen becuase it would cause WW3
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I used those buildings as an example of how divisive religious buildings are. You are forgetting the fact that you are purposing to build a Christian building on top of a Jewish foundation - one that Jewish people are rather fond of. In fact, if the Dome of the Rock disappeared, the Temple would be rebuilt.......not a Christian building. Coptic, Orthodox. Catholics, Protestants are not going to unite under a building anyway.
Sorry to be so cynical - it is a beautiful idea. I pray for christian unity
Yes it is a Jewish building and a Jewish site so I guess they'd have to ahve it but let's not forget that we have the Old Testament in common so a holy palce for them should be holy for us too. Do not foget that Mary and joseph took doves tot he Temple to give thanks for Jesus birth, Jesus was lost in the Temple when he was 12 and found talking to the priests and ERabbis there, Jesus threw out the money lenders from the Temple, he gave a sermon on the temple mount and when he was crucified the curtain that closed off the Holy of Holy's was ripped in two. So you see the Temple mount is a Christian holy place. I'm sure CHristians would share it with Jews or at least allow them in. MUslims on the other hand are not allowing non-Muslims on the temple mount and that is so wrong. It is a great injustice to CHristian and Jew alike.
As for Christian unity, that is one thing that is possible in Britain. This is because the chruchgoing population is dwindlign to the point where we will before long ahve to unite togetheer in order for Christianity to still exist. We have parish churches that can seat 400 people and believe me you rarely see more than 40 people in a church at a time unless it is a special event like Christmas, Easter or Rememberance day or perhaps a Baptism, a wedding or a funeral. We're not packed in like sardines we have plenty of room on the pews mores the pity. Where I lvie we have a group called "chruches together," where we hold inter-denominational services, lectures and social events as well as a big outdoor Nativity play. I was one of the Magi two years ago and I had to grow a beard (the itching drove me mad).
As for Christian unity, that is one thing that is possible in Britain. This is because the chruchgoing population is dwindlign to the point where we will before long ahve to unite togetheer in order for Christianity to still exist. We have parish churches that can seat 400 people and believe me you rarely see more than 40 people in a church at a time unless it is a special event like Christmas, Easter or Rememberance day or perhaps a Baptism, a wedding or a funeral. We're not packed in like sardines we have plenty of room on the pews mores the pity. Where I lvie we have a group called "chruches together," where we hold inter-denominational services, lectures and social events as well as a big outdoor Nativity play. I was one of the Magi two years ago and I had to grow a beard (the itching drove me mad).
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Well, that would be nice if the Christians shared the Temple mount with Jewish people.....
As far as Christian unity in Britain, are you talking about Baptists worshiping with Anglicans? And Church of Christ worshiping with Lutherans and Pentecostals? Or Anglicans uniting with other Anglicans?
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