Christians are in Rebellion against God for not following Torah

[Soyeong]

People have problems with change, but the Bible includes a sequence of changes. New Covenant.....new agreement with God.
What you think and what happened are two different things.
Again, the scriptures I posted in 175 prove we are not under the Law.

The New Covenant is still made with the same God with the same eternal character traits and therefore the same eternal and cumulatively valid instructions for how to know Him through embodying His character traits (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Again, I agree that we are not under the law, however, Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law other than the Law of God, so it should be worth discerning which law he was referring to out of all of the categories of law that he spoke about.

 

[Behold]

The New Covenant is still made with the same God with the same eternal character traits and therefore the same eternal and cumulatively valid instructions for how to know Him through embodying His character traits (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27).

You sure do teach a lot of Cross Denying Heresy. @Soyeong .

So, Why dont you share with us what (cult) Church trained you to be such a Cross Rejecting Legalist @Soyeong ?

Whats that?
You are afraid to tell us the name of your Church?
Well, i can certainly understand why you would want to hide it.

 

[Soyeong]

You sure do teach a lot of Cross Denying Heresy. @Soyeong .

So, Why dont you share with us what (cult) Church trained you to be such a Cross Rejecting Legalist @Soyeong ?

Whats that?
You are afraid to tell us the name of your Church?
Well, i can certainly understand why you would want to hide it.

I do not deny the cross. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah (Acts 21:20) while the way to deny what he accomplished would be by returning the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from.

 

[David in NJ]

All those people are going to hell for not following Jesus and the New Covenant... just like those following the old covenant torah. Really too bad what happens to people like this when they croak.




And the anti-christ will be all Torah friendly... but he will reject the New Covenant

One cannot make it in to Heaven following Torah, no one must become a New Covenant believer instead.

Please place a period after "no one".

"Must become a New Covenant Believer instead."

 

[Grailhunter]

The New Covenant is still made with the same God with the same eternal character traits and therefore the same eternal and cumulatively valid instructions for how to know Him through embodying His character traits (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Again, I agree that we are not under the law, however, Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law other than the Law of God, so it should be worth discerning which law he was referring to out of all of the categories of law that he spoke about.

The details of it are laid out in the New Testament. The reason or one of the reasons that the 613 Mosaic Laws failed and could not bring about salvation was that in order to address every wrong doing you would need 613 million Mosaic Laws and technically there was no real forgiveness for sins in the Old Testament, just sacrifices to appease Yahweh's anger. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrew 10:4 And without the Grace of Yeshua, one sin kept you out of Heaven. That is probably why Heaven was not offered as a reward in the Old Testament.

The New Testament lays out the do and don't do's. Love God and each other. Do good for each other. And....
1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now there are moral equivalents between the Old and New Testaments that are common sense. But the Old Testament concept of Laws do not exist in the New Testament. For more than one reason.

 

[Anchorite]

Romans 3

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[Soyeong]

The details of it are laid out in the New Testament. The reason or one of the reasons that the 613 Mosaic Laws failed and could not bring about salvation was that in order to address every wrong doing you would need 613 million Mosaic Laws and technically there was no real forgiveness for sins in the Old Testament, just sacrifices to appease Yahweh's anger. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrew 10:4 And without the Grace of Yeshua, one sin kept you out of Heaven. That is probably Heaven was not offered as a reward in the Old Testament.

Jesus spent his ministry teach his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and the reason why he established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or sot hat we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused it to be needed in the first place, but rather it still involves following the Mosaic Law.

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we can't earn our salvation even as there result of having perfect obedience to it, Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is is intrinsically way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. It is contradictory for someone to think that they need salvation from sin while also thinking that they have no obligation to obey the Torah. They to be forgiven has always been through faith in Christ.

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the reason why our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to be workers of lawfulness is not in order to be good enough to earn it as the result but because that is the way to know Jesus. Nowhere does the Bible say that we are required to be sinless in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

The New Testament lays out the do and don't do's. Love God and each other. Do good for each other. And....
1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Everything in the Torah is either in regard to how to love God or our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them. For example, if someone thought that they just needed to love God and their neighbor, so they did not need to refrain from committing idolatry or favoritism, then they would have an incomplete understanding of what it means to love God and their neighbor, and the same is true for everything else commanded in the Torah. Someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly living in obedience to the rest of the Torah because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. Moreover, the way to obey the greatest commandment in the Bible is essentially by being zealous for teaching obedience to the Torah (Deuteronomy 6:4-7).

Now there are moral equivalents between the Old and New Testaments that are common sense. But the Old Testament concept of Laws do not exist in the New Testament. For more than one reason.

Morality is based on God's character traits and the goal of the Torah is to teach us how to embody God's character traits, so everything in the Torah is inherently a moral law.

 

[Soyeong]

Romans 3

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

I do not hold the position that the reason why we should obey the Torah is in order to earn our righteousness as the result (Romans 4:1-5), though it is also true that only the doers of the Torah will be declared righteous (Romans 2:13), so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of it other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds the Torah (Romans 3:28-31).

If you agree that it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin and that we should refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin, then you should agree that we should obey the Torah.

 

[Anchorite]

Romans 4

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus spent his ministry teach his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and the reason why he established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or sot hat we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused it to be needed in the first place, but rather it still involves following the Mosaic Law.

And again and again and again.....Yeshua's ministry was during the Old Covenant. He worked with the Jews first. Nullify is the wrong word.....fulfill is correct.....the Bible is full of changes.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus spent his ministry teach his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and the reason why he established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or sot hat we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused it to be needed in the first place, but rather it still involves following the Mosaic Law.

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we can't earn our salvation even as there result of having perfect obedience to it, Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is is intrinsically way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. It is contradictory for someone to think that they need salvation from sin while also thinking that they have no obligation to obey the Torah. They to be forgiven has always been through faith in Christ.

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the reason why our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to be workers of lawfulness is not in order to be good enough to earn it as the result but because that is the way to know Jesus. Nowhere does the Bible say that we are required to be sinless in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.


Everything in the Torah is either in regard to how to love God or our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them. For example, if someone thought that they just needed to love God and their neighbor, so they did not need to refrain from committing idolatry or favoritism, then they would have an incomplete understanding of what it means to love God and their neighbor, and the same is true for everything else commanded in the Torah. Someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly living in obedience to the rest of the Torah because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. Moreover, the way to obey the greatest commandment in the Bible is essentially by being zealous for teaching obedience to the Torah (Deuteronomy 6:4-7).


Morality is based on God's character traits and the goal of the Torah is to teach us how to embody God's character traits, so everything in the Torah is inherently a moral law.

Again the scriptures in post 175 makes it all clear.

 

[Soyeong]

Romans 4

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

I completely agree that the reason why we should obey the Torah is not in order to earn our righteousness as a wage.

 

[quietthinker]

All those people are going to hell for not following Jesus and the New Covenant... just like those following the old covenant torah. Really too bad what happens to people like this when they croak.




And the anti-christ will be all Torah friendly... but he will reject the New Covenant

One cannot make it in to Heaven following Torah, no one must become a New Covenant believer instead.

Perhaps you don't understand that our Creator is in the saving business......not the destroying business?

John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.....Jesus

 

[David in NJ]

I completely agree that the reason why we should obey the Torah is not in order to earn our righteousness as a wage.

Then why are you seeking to be under the law?

 

[Jack]

I completely agree that the reason why we should obey the Torah is not in order to earn our righteousness as a wage.

You obey Torah? Or do you just pick the parts you like, like most Torah preachers?

Exodus 31:15 Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

 

[Anchorite]

How many witches has @Soyeong executed?

Exodus 22:18

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

 

[Jack]

Perhaps you don't understand that our Creator is in the saving business......not the destroying business?

How ironic that God drowned all but 8 on Earth "making them an example"! You didn't seem to learn the lesson QT! But you will.

Matthew 24:38-39
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

 

[quietthinker]

How ironic that God drowned all but 8 on Earth "making them an example"! You didn't seem to learn the lesson QT! But you will.

Matthew 24:38-39
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

It is clear to me from the text you quoted that it was the FLOOD that took them all away.....not God.
If the thief (satan) is in the destroying business and Jesus (God) is in the saving business who do you think initiated the flood?

 

[Jack]

It is clear to me from the text you quoted that it was the FLOOD that took them all away.....not God.

To you? lol

You should read the Bible some time before it's too late.

2 Peter 2:4-6
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

If the thief (satan) is in the destroying business and Jesus (God) is in the saving business who do you think initiated the flood?

Do you also deny the EVERLASTING Hell Fire that Jesus warned us of?

 

[David Lamb]

It is clear to me from the text you quoted that it was the FLOOD that took them all away.....not God.
If the thief (satan) is in the destroying business and Jesus (God) is in the saving business who do you think initiated the flood?

But who caused the Flood? God said to Noah:

(Gen 6:17 NKJV) And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die.

God Himself "initiated the Flood."