Church Bashing

[quietthinker]

Which idioms are you speaking of. Eternal? Death? Torture? All of them are great deterrent's to sin, btw.

Here is how it pans out in brief Nancy; certain stories, expressions and words that are intended to convey a message other than the literal details of the stories, expressions and or words. Here's one angle for example, the story of Lazarus in Abrahams bosom....If we are to take this story as a statement on the after life, which of those details do we take literally and which ones not and who determines which is which?
The intent of the story told is summed up in the 'punch line' so to speak, in its conclusion, not the details. We do the same when we tell a story (joke) There was an Irishman, Englishman and an American....etc etc. As soon as we start with a story like this everybody waits for the punch line. It's the punchline in the story that makes it pertinent. We don't analyse the details and ask 'is it a true story'.
The Hebrews are great story tellers and they knew this instinctively just as we do when someone opens with a joke.

Another helpful insight is that the the early Hebrews did not believe in a devil as the perpetrator of evil. They believed that both good and evil emanated from God; they believed God had a dark side; even many modern religious Jews lean that way.
It wasn't until the captivities the Hebrews experienced in foreign lands and the influences they were subjected to that the idea of another factor ie, demons and devils was introduced.

Christians in the West are generally ignorant of this because they read backwards into the text, for example we read about the serpent in Eden and understand that it was Satan but that information is not given in the Genesis account. We read back into the text because of information we have which Jesus gave us as to the reality of Satan. Ask any religious Jew and you might be surprised at their answer.

The question is then asked, what about the story of Job? 'Satan' is the word for accuser. The accuser was seen by the Hebrews as we would see a prosecutor today; one who's role it is to bring out the truth of any given matter. A prosecutor is not inherently evil....it is just his job.....that's how they understand it.

Again, the word 'eternal' in the context used from the Hebrew perspective means as long as it exists, for instance if I put fuel into a fire, lets say wood or some other combustible, it'll burn till it is burned up ie, consumed.....the fire then goes out. Firefighters will say this when a house burns down, 'we couldn't put the fire out, it burnt forever'. We know exactly what they mean. We don't expect to come back years later and still find the house burning.

So, putting all these things together, knowing that we have a loving God in whom is no shadow of turning and a Jesus who is the same yesterday, today and forever we interpret the text appropriately......we do not spin off into myths gleaned from misunderstanding intent.

Finally, your comment on Death, Eternal and Torture being great deterrents for sin; look around you, does it work?

 

[BarneyFife]

what it comes down to as I see it is God is far better than we imagine ....translating into; it's far easier to be saved than lost.

Men love lost.....it's the default inherited from Adam so they (meaning those who consider themselves enlightened) make it sound like one needs to scale Everest barefoot, naked and backwards for an entrance into the eternal kingdom to be realised.

Juxtaposed is the good news that all are in Jesus by Gods action and there is no condemnation.....it's breathtaking.....will we believe it!

Wow, you guys are putting out some fantastic content! No undue flattery intended--just affirming some great testimony.

 

[Nancy]

Here is how it pans out in brief Nancy; certain stories, expressions and words that are intended to convey a message other than the literal details of the stories, expressions and or words. Here's one angle for example, the story of Lazarus in Abrahams bosom....If we are to take this story as a statement on the after life, which of those details do we take literally and which ones not and who determines which is which?
The intent of the story told is summed up in the 'punch line' so to speak, in its conclusion, not the details. We do the same when we tell a story (joke) There was an Irishman, Englishman and an American....etc etc. As soon as we start with a story like this everybody waits for the punch line. It's the punchline in the story that makes it pertinent. We don't analyse the details and ask 'is it a true story'.
The Hebrews are great story tellers and they knew this instinctively just as we do when someone opens with a joke.

Another helpful insight is that the the early Hebrews did not believe in a devil as the perpetrator of evil. They believed that both good and evil emanated from God; they believed God had a dark side; even many modern religious Jews lean that way.
It wasn't until the captivities the Hebrews experienced in foreign lands and the influences they were subjected to that the idea of another factor ie, demons and devils was introduced.

Christians in the West are generally ignorant of this because they read backwards into the text, for example we read about the serpent in Eden and understand that it was Satan but that information is not given in the Genesis account. We read back into the text because of information we have which Jesus gave us as to the reality of Satan. Ask any religious Jew and you might be surprised at their answer.

The question is then asked, what about the story of Job? 'Satan' is the word for accuser. The accuser was seen by the Hebrews as we would see a prosecutor today; one who's role it is to bring out the truth of any given matter. A prosecutor is not inherently evil....it is just his job.....that's how they understand it.

Again, the word 'eternal' in the context used from the Hebrew perspective means as long as it exists, for instance if I put fuel into a fire, lets say wood or some other combustible, it'll burn till it is burned up ie, consumed.....the fire then goes out. Firefighters will say this when a house burns down, 'we couldn't put the fire out, it burnt forever'. We know exactly what they mean. We don't expect to come back years later and still find the house burning.

So, putting all these things together, knowing that we have a loving God in whom is no shadow of turning and a Jesus who is the same yesterday, today and forever we interpret the text appropriately......we do not spin off into myths gleaned from misunderstanding intent.

Finally, your comment on Death, Eternal and Torture being great deterrents for sin; look around you, does it work?

"It wasn't until the captivities the Hebrews experienced in foreign lands and the influences they were subjected to that the idea of another factor ie, demons and devils was introduced."

Can you expound on who first introduced demons and devils to the Hebrews, in scripture?

"Finally, your comment on Death, Eternal and Torture being great deterrents for sin; look around you, does it work?"

No more than prison does crime...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Nancy]

Oh, this thing train-wrecked about 30 pages ago.

Probably by @stunnedbygrace initially....Bahahahaha! She has these issues, be kind.

 

[BarneyFife]

Fact is, most people at the time of Jesus and now, learn about the Bible from what is said orally at church.

So very true, my friend, but then should come the Berean response, should it not? Let us not be as those in Thessalonica, eh?

 

[BarneyFife]

It's unclear if this post is meant to rebuke my post. However, having faith is NOT the same thing as a doctrinal purity test. If the verse you cited specifically listed doctrinal purity requirements, that would be different.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding we are to have faith in a person, not doctrinal purity.

Christ is doctrine. He is the Word made flesh, and the Scriptures are they that testify of Him. We are to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, are we not? This "doctrinal purity" thing seems a bit like a red herring. Just sayin'.

 

[quietthinker]

Can you expound on who first introduced demons and devils to the Hebrews, in scripture?

The progression in how they the Hewbrews/Jews understood is evident from what we read recorded.
Here is a very brief explanation....

Isaiah 45:5-7 written 700-740 BC reads like this...

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,
so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting
people may know there is none besides me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.

By the time of Jesus they there was an acknowledgement of demons and Beelzebub, however we must remember that even though there was an acknowledgement, it was Jesus who nailed it. It was Jesus who definitively identified who the source of evil was/is....subsequently we (Christians) can read into the account of the serpent in Eden and identify it as being Satan.

I'd say particularly the Babylonian captivity including the other occupations (Medes/Persians, Greeks, Romans) occurring between Isaiah's time and Jesus was influential.
You will find that the overwhelming religious Jew still does not hold to Jesus' understanding of where and how Satan fits into the picture, a picture which Christians take for granted and assume the Hebrews/Jews did/do as well.

 

[Wrangler]

So very true, my friend, but then should come the Berean response, should it not? Let us not be as those in Thessalonica, eh?

I'm honestly not familiar with these terms, Berean response or Thessalonica. We post on-line to share our original thoughts, not just reference the thoughts of others, right?

 

[Wrangler]

This "doctrinal purity" thing seems a bit like a red herring.

Why do you say that since it is evident that church bashing is largely based on doctrinal condemnation?

 

[BarneyFife]

I'm honestly not familiar with these terms, Berean response or Thessalonica. We post on-line to share our original thoughts, not just reference the thoughts of others, right?

Well, if by "thoughts of others" you mean Scripture, then OK, I guess.

Acts 17:10 Parallel: And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Acts 17:11 Parallel: These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[BarneyFife]

Why do you say that since it is evident that church bashing is largely based on doctrinal condemnation?

Have we really arrived at an agreement on the definition of "church-bashing?" How can we know what it is based on if we're not even sure what it is?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No snow yet here in Maryland. In the 60’s today and tomorrow.

Good and well jinxed myself there I did! Snowing so hard I can’t keep up with it!
Calling for up to 10 inches. That’s a LOT for here.

 

[quietthinker]

Good and well jinxed myself there I did! Snowing so hard I can’t keep up with it!
Calling for up to 10 inches. That’s a LOT for here.

Here's something to mull over....10 inches of average snow = 1 inch of water......
Last Tuesday we had 1645mm rain in a 24 hr period.....thats about 5 1/2 feet of water = 66 inches
66 x 10 = 660 divided x 12 inches = 55 feet of snow or 16.66 meters of snow.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Here's something to mull over....10 inches of average snow = 1 inch of water......
Last Tuesday we had 1645mm rain in a 24 hr period.....thats about 5 1/2 feet of water = 66 inches
66 x 10 = 660 divided x 12 inches = 55 feet of snow or 16.66 meters of snow.

Well that’s very mean of you when I’m only on my second cup of coffee…

 

[quietthinker]

Well that’s very mean of you when I’m only on my second cup of coffee…

it's gotta be well above the chimney tops

 

[marks]

when you figure out what death means, we can talk again

What does death mean?

Much love!

 

[marks]

So we are to accept and embrace all that is wrong and not judge? I think you are wrong, we must point out what goes against God's word, it's our duty to do so.

It's why the world is headed towards eternal damnation because people are afraid to speak up and point out what is wrong and against God's law and word.

When the time comes will you be a soldier in God's army and lay your life down for the truth wich is the word and law of God?

I am prepared to do so.

In my experience people hear love more than they hear truth.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We are not God. Rather than tear down other Christ followers, why don't you focus on making the world a better place?

Those who make overgeneralized criticisms, such as what inspired this thread, I think they typically do so to bolster themselves, to self-affirm. They are not able to make things better, and instead work to tear down. Maybe in some disguise of holiness, a pretend spirituality, but not the true Spirit. This is a fleshy work.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Once again, since you skipped answering, if someone teaches a doctrine that harms the men it purports to help, tell me, in your own words, what loving them looks like.

It looks like appealing to them with Scripture and reason and prayer. It looks like assessing whether this is a mistaken sheep or a wolf. Which is it? After that the answers get different.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

Here's something to mull over....10 inches of average snow = 1 inch of water......
Last Tuesday we had 1645mm rain in a 24 hr period.....thats about 5 1/2 feet of water = 66 inches
66 x 10 = 660 divided x 12 inches = 55 feet of snow or 16.66 meters of snow.

66 inches of rain in 24 hours? Good Lord, man, did you get hit by a typhoon or something?