Church

[bbyrd009]

amen, i serve an Unknown God, and i am not interested in serving any known gods.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Then where does that leave Moses and the apostle Paul?
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." Exodus 33:20

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

How much knowledge of the very nature of God can we have when we cannot see His face at all or cannot see it clearly.

Consider David words:
"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Psalm 27:8

He was certainly seeking the Lord's face as we all should be doing, but if we have not yet seen it clearly where are we then with God? Not lost surely if our hearts are right.

Moses knew who God was, in that he knew who God revealed Himself to be.
The Trinity had not yet been revealed to the Jews, so Moses was not aware of the Son yet.

And what of those who are seeking sincerely but do not see what you see? Do not these words speak of those favorably?

"And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us." Luke 9:49-50

And nowhere does this passage say that these other people didn't know who God was.

I believe God created man. I believe the Father sent His Son to redeem man. I believe also that the Holy Spirit was sent to lead man. These beliefs do not say anything to me about each the three of them being God or being part of God or of being three in one in God.

Then, I suggest you go back to post #279, where I listed no less than THIRTY-FIVE verses that speak of the deity of ALL Three Persons.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I do know who God is, but all of the details of His nature are not revealed to me. From what I have seen and heard and read all of those details have not been revealed to anyone else either. You would called it heresy for someone to not accept what you say or what your church says and embrace it as being the absolute truth? There really is something more important than that.

And Jesus said of His Church:
Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

You don't HAVE to believe what His Church teaches. That's YOUR choice.
But when you reject what His Church teaches - you are rejecting HIM.

 

[101G]

Your "convertible" Jesus doesn't exist. He is not a part time Holy Spirit and part time Father. Jesus is the Son.
This is what I meant when I said that every heresy begins with the misconception of the nature of God.

so I take this as you cannot understand "Diversity".........

 

[BreadOfLife]

so I take this as you cannot understand "Diversity"........

No - take it as the fact that I reject your diversity heresy.
Can you show me ONE writing from the Early Church that supports this heresy?

 

[101G]

No - take it as the fact that I reject your diversity heresy.
Can you show me ONE writing from the Early Church that supports this heresy?

yes the whole bible where the Godhead is mention. did I not show you in scripture...
ok here's one, Revelation 1:4 & 5 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood".

THAT'S ONE PERSON, THAT THIS LETTER IS FROM, that's diversity .....

 

[101G]

Now if you think that Revelation 1:3 & 4 are three person, then you're as said into polytheism. for many trinitarians believe this, that there are three person in these verses. do you agree?. .

 

[BreadOfLife]

yes the whole bible where the Godhead is mention. did I not show you in scripture...
ok here's one, Revelation 1:4 & 5 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood".

THAT'S ONE PERSON, THAT THIS LETTER IS FROM, that's diversity .....

Now if you think that Revelation 1:3 & 4 are three person, then you're as said into polytheism. for many trinitarians believe this, that there are three person in these verses. do you agree?. .

Acts 9:17-18
So Ananias went and entered the house; laying his hands on him, he said, “Saul, my brother, the Lord has sent me, Jesus who appeared to you on the way by which you came, that you may regain your sight and be filled with the holy Spirit.” Immediately things like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight.

Hopefully, this happens to YOU some day.
There is none so blind as the one who refuses to see . . .

 

[101G]

The bible is so true, John 3:19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil".

Triune God is nothing but Modalism in reverse. it's better to obey God than man.

peace in Christ Jesus

 

[amadeus]

Moses knew who God was, in that he knew who God revealed Himself to be.
The Trinity had not yet been revealed to the Jews, so Moses was not aware of the Son yet.

I guess it was not all that important for us to know then was it? God is surely according to both the NT and the OT no respecter of persons.

And nowhere does this passage say that these other people didn't know who God was.

Hmmm, to know God is act as God wants us to act because of what is in our hearts rather than because of the knowledge in our heads. Consider for example these words penned by the Apostle Paul:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" Rom 2:14-15

These are those out there whose hearts are right without a church or group or even a Bible. What they have in their hearts would be those two greatest laws defined by Jesus. Yet they could not describe what you would call the godhead. They were Gentiles, which mean heathen, which means someone on the outside of the physical or visible places we might call churches. But... they were not outside of God even though many or most or even all of them could not name the Father or Jesus or the Holy Ghost. Hmmm?

They would certainly know nothing about any trinity.

Then, I suggest you go back to post #279, where I listed no less than THIRTY-FIVE verses that speak of the deity of ALL Three Persons.

You speak of their deity and I never denied that. In my case I do not deny the Holy Spirit, but what if the Holy Spirit is simply the power of the Father manifested where He is, which is everywhere, is it not? Why would we separate the Father from the Holy Spirit and call them two persons?

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24 Is this not speaking of the Father, which you regularly call God the Father? He is a Spirit and is He not holy? Therefore is He not the Holy Spirit. So then you have at best no more than two.

 

[amadeus]

amen, i serve an Unknown God, and i am not interested in serving any known gods.

Yes, indeed, but we would hope to at some point see Him face to face, would we not? As did David and Paul, we have also been seeking His face have we not? Some people assure us that they have already seen more than David and Paul and that they already know God fully. How well do they know Him, I wonder...

 

[BreadOfLife]

I guess it was not all that important for us to know then was it? God is surely according to both the NT and the OT no respecter of persons.

Hmmm, to know God is act as God wants us to act because of what is in our hearts rather than because of the knowledge in our heads. Consider for example these words penned by the Apostle Paul:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" Rom 2:14-15

These are those out there whose hearts are right without a church or group or even a Bible. What they have in their hearts would be those two greatest laws defined by Jesus. Yet they could not describe what you would call the godhead. They were Gentiles, which mean heathen, which means someone on the outside of the physical or visible places we might call churches. But... they were not outside of God even though many or most or even all of them could not name the Father or Jesus or the Holy Ghost. Hmmm?

They would certainly know nothing about any trinity.

This is incorrect.
A Gentile is simply a non-Jewish person - not necessarily a pagan. In Scripture, there were Jewish Christians and Gentle Christians - and neither of them were pagans.

You speak of their deity and I never denied that. In my case I do not deny the Holy Spirit, but what if the Holy Spirit is simply the power of the Father manifested where He is, which is everywhere, is it not? Why would we separate the Father from the Holy Spirit and call them two persons?

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24 Is this not speaking of the Father, which you regularly call God the Father? He is a Spirit and is He not holy? Therefore is He not the Holy Spirit. So then you have at best no more than two.

If the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son - then the Holy Spirit is not simply the Spirit of the Father.
Now, we're back to THREE Persons . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

The bible is so true, John 3:19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil".

Triune God is nothing but Modalism in reverse. it's better to obey God than man.

peace in Christ Jesus

And "Diversified Oneness" is just another modern man-made invention.
I noticed that were were completely unable to produce even ONE Church Father who agrees with this abomination . . .

 

[101G]

If the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son - then the Holy Spirit is not simply the Spirit of the Father.
Now, we're back to THREE Persons . . .

Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost". anyone who conceive a child is the "Father". now if the The Holy Ghost is the Actual Father, who is this so-called first person?.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost". anyone who conceive a child is the "Father". now if the The Holy Ghost is the Actual Father, who is this so-called first person?.

Not sure how you can't seem to grasp "proceeds from the Father and the Son".

I'm also VERY aware of the fact that you can't seem to addrecs the almost THREE DOZEN verses I dropped on your lap that confirm the doctrine of the Trinity . . .

 

[amadeus]

And Jesus said of His Church:
Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

Ah, my friend, but you [2nd person singular] describe the YOU [2nd person plural] as the Catholic Church, while I describe it as the people who believe in and love Him, which includes many who are definitely not formal Catholics. You [2nd person singular] need to be sure of your antecedents before drawing too many conclusions.

Even your official church position does not call all of the formal non-Catholic members lost. Yet you do. Do you have that kind of authority? You quickly speak of non-Catholics as not having the authority to speak as you do because it opposes what you call the church, but you act as if you do. What happens to a person who believes in God but is ignorant of what the Catholic Church would call essential things for salvation?

You don't HAVE to believe what His Church teaches. That's YOUR choice.
But when you reject what His Church teaches - you are rejecting HIM.

We have to believe what God's messengers correctly [according God] speak. Would you state definitely that God has no messengers outside of the formal structure of the Catholic Church?

 

[101G]

Not sure how you can't seem to grasp "proceeds from the Father and the Son".

I'm also VERY aware of the fact that you can't seem to addrecs the almost THREE DOZEN verses I dropped on your lap that confirm the doctrine of the Trinity . . .

you have not answered one of mine, revelation 1:3 & 4 well?.

 

[101G]

And "Diversified Oneness" is just another modern man-made invention.
I noticed that were were completely unable to produce even ONE Church Father who agrees with this abomination . . .

I have the real church fathers

"The disciples Knew that Jesus was God"
examples,
#1. Stephen, saw God/JESUS as the Right Hand, Glorified. and you have no clue what the ARM of God, or the Right hand of God mean... (smile).

#2. Ananias declare the Lord Jesus as God of the fathers, which you found out today...... (smile).

#3. John in Revelation declare the Lord Jesus as God, one person, which you know that your assessment is wrong... (smile).

#4. Jude: Jude 1:25 "To the only wise God our Saviour". and that's JESUS.

see this is nothing new, nor man made...... . just knowledge you don't have....

so I have the first church fathers.

 

[amadeus]

This is incorrect.
A Gentile is simply a non-Jewish person - not necessarily a pagan. In Scripture, there were Jewish Christians and Gentle Christians - and neither of them were pagans.

Speaking carnally you may be right, but spiritually speaking a Gentile, as I see it, is one who is not part of God people. He is an unbeliever or a heathen. Many carnal Jews have been spiritual followers of Christ and therefore might correctly be called Christians.

The point, of course, that a person who is ignorant of scripture may still have a heart that is turned toward God. The Catholic Church has provisions for such a thing as well. If you are unfamiliar with it you should search or ask one of your knowledgeable priests.

If the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son - then the Holy Spirit is not simply the Spirit of the Father.
Now, we're back to THREE Persons . . .

And the simple usage of words in the right manner does not make it so. The truth is the truth without words. I have heard the words before and I know that someone went to a lot of work to make the words say the right thing... so that which the speakers/writers believed or wanted the right thing to be.

What is the difference between "proceeds from" and "born of"? Word games or semantics will not tell us what the truth is or what it is not.
The truth can only be known by a person to whom God has revealed it.

Why should anyone reading our words believe you rather than me or some other guy posting on this thread? Because you are right? Because I am right? Because the other guy is right?

God is right, but who is on the Lord's side?

 

[101G]

If the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son - then the Holy Spirit is not simply the Spirit of the Father.

No one person come from two different persons. if the Father is not the son and the HOLY SPIRIT is not the Father how can he come from either?. for your very own doctrine contradicts that. if the father is not the son nor the Holy Spirit how can he come from either of them?.