Clay and Butter

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Phoneman777

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Some have the misapprehension that God "caused" Pharaoh's heart to harden, especially our Calvinist friends who insist that all are predestined for heaven or hell - a "Christian" variation of the same satanic "exclusivity religion" practiced by catholics, Luciferians, Freemasons, secret societies, etc. who claim to be "God's chosen" while the rest of us are merely put on Earth for the exploitation and condemnation.God's Word is not a party so such nonsense, for He is in the business of saving souls - as many as will choose to accept the free gift of salvation.

As clay and butter are placed in the sun and the one melts while the other hardens, so too the same grace of God that melts the heart of the repentant sinner will harden the heart of them who stubbornly refuse to repent. Neither the Sun nor the Lord are to blame - but the material upon which they act.

"For the grace of God which bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men..."
 
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Cassandra

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I always thought that the Lord hardened Pharoah's heart meant that the Lord's actions made him angry.

Like "You make me angry" does not mean that you did it. Your actions made the person become angry. Its on them.
 
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BlessedPeace

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Some have the misapprehension that God "caused" Pharaoh's heart to harden, especially our Calvinist friends who insist that all are predestined for heaven or hell - a "Christian" variation of the same satanic "exclusivity religion" practiced by catholics, Luciferians, Freemasons, secret societies, etc. who claim to be "God's chosen" while the rest of us are merely put on Earth for the exploitation and condemnation.God's Word is not a party so such nonsense, for He is in the business of saving souls - as many as will choose to accept the free gift of salvation.

As clay and butter are placed in the sun and the one melts while the other hardens, so too the same grace of God that melts the heart of the repentant sinner will harden the heart of them who stubbornly refuse to repent. Neither the Sun nor the Lord are to blame - but the material upon which they act.

"For the grace of God which bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men..."
God said he would harden the Pharaohs heart.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Pharaoh’s heart was already hard as he had demonstrated through 10 plagues, designed to humiliate 10 of Egypt’s many gods....the last one bringing the about the death of Pharaoh’s firstborn son and heir....with Pharaoh himself viewed as a god.....he could not save his own from death at the hand of Israel’s God...

God simply did not soften this man’s proud and arrogant heart, and allowed him to bring about his own demise.....chasing after his slaves after they had left Egypt to bring them back, but he was swept away when the waters of the Red Sea caved in on his whole army, with Israel safely on the other side.
 

MA2444

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Pharaoh’s heart was already hard as he had demonstrated through 10 plagues, designed to humiliate 10 of Egypt’s many gods....the last one bringing the about the death of Pharaoh’s firstborn son and heir....with Pharaoh himself viewed as a god.....he could not save his own from death at the hand of Israel’s God...

God simply did not soften this man’s proud and arrogant heart, and allowed him to bring about his own demise.....chasing after his slaves after they had left Egypt to bring them back, but he was swept away when the waters of the Red Sea caved in on his whole army, with Israel safely on the other side.

If God had did the plague of the firstborn first instead of last, Pharohs heart would not have been hardened. The milder plagues that God did first, insects, frogs, minor stuff was because God loved Pharoah and didn't want to take his firstborn.

But when a small thing happens and people are arrogant, their heart turns away from the danger and they think they have a leg to stand on. Thus his heart was hardened. So God sort've did and did not harden Pharoahs heart.

If you think about it, the Lord speaks to us through our Conscience. Whenever you go against your conscience, your heart is hardened.
 

Cassandra

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If God had did the plague of the firstborn first instead of last, Pharohs heart would not have been hardened. The milder plagues that God did first, insects, frogs, minor stuff was because God loved Pharoah and didn't want to take his firstborn.

But when a small thing happens and people are arrogant, their heart turns away from the danger and they think they have a leg to stand on. Thus his heart was hardened. So God sort've did and did not harden Pharoahs heart.

If you think about it, the Lord speaks to us through our Conscience. Whenever you go against your conscience, your heart is hardened.
Well, sometimes, anyway.

Proverbs 14:12 " There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
 

BlessedPeace

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Pharaoh’s heart was already hard as he had demonstrated through 10 plagues, ...
Re-read Exodus.

The 10 plagues wrought by the Hebrews God occurred after Moses arrived and commanded Pharaoh to let God's people go.

God told Moses he would harden Pharaohs heart before
he sent Moses into Egypt.


Pharaoh could not have let God's people go. Because his heart was hardened against it.
 

Aunty Jane

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Re-read Exodus.
I have studied the account quite thoroughly.
The 10 plagues wrought by the Hebrews God occurred after Moses arrived and commanded Pharaoh to let God's people go.
Exodus 4::21-23….
”Then Jehovah said to Moses: “After you have returned to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharʹaoh all the miracles that I have empowered you to do. But I will allow his heart to become obstinate, and he will not send the people away. 22 You must say to Pharʹaoh, ‘This is what Jehovah says: “Israel is my son, my firstborn. 23 I say to you, Send my son away so that he may serve me. But if you refuse to send him away, I am going to kill your son, your firstborn.”’”

That was the last plague, not the first. He gave this obstinate man 9 more opportunities to agree to send Israel away to serve their God….but God did not soften Pharaoh’s obstinate heart, allowing him to demonstrate 10 times that he would not do as the true God demanded. Pharaoh had no excuse, since the demonstrations that Moses performed before him were only a small sample of what was to come.
God told Moses he would harden Pharaohs heart before
he sent Moses into Egypt.
Allowing Pharaohs heart to remain obstinate is not the same as causing it….God is a reader of hearts, not just actions and words. Pharaoh was not just a ruler in Egypt, but a deity.

Exodus 5:1-4….
”Afterward, Moses and Aaron went in and said to Pharʹaoh: “This is what Jehovah the God of Israel says, ‘Send my people away so that they may celebrate a festival to me in the wilderness.’” 2 But Pharʹaoh said: “Who is Jehovah, that I should obey his voice to send Israel away? I do not know Jehovah at all, and what is more, I will not send Israel away.”

What Moses asked, was for Israel to celebrate a “three day festival in the wilderness”…..so initially he request was not something Pharaoh could not grant, but his whole attitude was pompous and arrogant against this God of the Hebrews…..”Who is Jehovah, that I should obey his voice to send Israel away?”
That refusal set the scene for what followed……all Pharaoh was interested in, was that his labor force would be out of action for three days.

“But they said: “The God of the Hebrews has communicated with us. Please, we want to make a three-day journey into the wilderness and sacrifice to Jehovah our God; otherwise, he will strike us with disease or with the sword.” 4 The king of Egypt replied to them: “Why is it, Moses and Aaron, that you are taking the people away from their work? Return to your labor!”

If Pharaoh would still stubbornly refuse the request, then as Moses indicated, their God would punish them and “strike them with disease and the sword”….what would Pharaoh do then? He would have no work force permanently….yet still he refused, even in the face of Moses’ display of God’s power.
Pharaoh could not have let God's people go. Because his heart was hardened against it.
There is a difference between “could not” and “would not”…..God knew that Pharaoh’s heart was hardened against it right from the start. Egypt was a strong world power by then and Pharaoh’s position as leader of this powerful nation was widely known……it was time for the true God to show his strength in behalf of his people.
From a small family unit who came with Jacob to Egypt seeking food, Israel grew into a numerous people as God had promised Abraham. Under Joseph’s administration, (sent by God to Egypt long in advance) Israel prospered. It had been over 200 years since coming to Egypt when God, commissioned Moses to free his people at the age of 80.
Israel had become slaves of a Pharaoh who did not know Joseph, and the numbers of this people were growing to such an extent that Pharaoh felt threatened by them, so he subjugated them, ensuring that they would not rise up against him.

In allowing Pharaoh’s heart to remain obstinate, God would show his reasonableness by not carrying out his initial threat until the very last, but still the man wanted to gain the victory over the God who took his son in death. Had he been the least bit humble, or wise, there would have been a different outcome, but the Bible record stands as monument to Pharaoh’s choices, made in spite of the odds and the power of the true God that were against him.

Have you read Exodus?
 
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BlessedPeace

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I have studied the account quite thoroughly.

Exodus 4::21-23….
”Then Jehovah said to Moses: “After you have returned to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharʹaoh all the miracles that I have empowered you to do. But I will allow his heart to become obstinate, and he will not send the people away. 22 You must say to Pharʹaoh, ‘This is what Jehovah says: “Israel is my son, my firstborn. 23 I say to you, Send my son away so that he may serve me. But if you refuse to send him away, I am going to kill your son, your firstborn.”’”

That was the last plague, not the first. He gave this obstinate man 9 more opportunities to agree to send Israel away to serve their God….but God did not soften Pharaoh’s obstinate heart, allowing him to demonstrate 10 times that he would not do as the true God demanded. Pharaoh had no excuse, since the demonstrations that Moses performed before him were only a small sample of what was to come.

Allowing Pharaohs heart to remain obstinate is not the same as causing it….God is a reader of hearts, not just actions and words. Pharaoh was not just a ruler in Egypt, but a deity.

Exodus 5:1-4….
”Afterward, Moses and Aaron went in and said to Pharʹaoh: “This is what Jehovah the God of Israel says, ‘Send my people away so that they may celebrate a festival to me in the wilderness.’” 2 But Pharʹaoh said: “Who is Jehovah, that I should obey his voice to send Israel away? I do not know Jehovah at all, and what is more, I will not send Israel away.”

What Moses asked, was for Israel to celebrate a “three day festival in the wilderness”…..so initially he request was not something Pharaoh could not grant, but his whole attitude was pompous and arrogant against this God of the Hebrews…..”Who is Jehovah, that I should obey his voice to send Israel away?”
That refusal set the scene for what followed……all Pharaoh was interested in, was that his labor force would be out of action for three days.

“But they said: “The God of the Hebrews has communicated with us. Please, we want to make a three-day journey into the wilderness and sacrifice to Jehovah our God; otherwise, he will strike us with disease or with the sword.” 4 The king of Egypt replied to them: “Why is it, Moses and Aaron, that you are taking the people away from their work? Return to your labor!”

If Pharaoh would still stubbornly refuse the request, then as Moses indicated, their God would punish them and “strike them with disease and the sword”….what would Pharaoh do then? He would have no work force permanently….yet still he refused, even in the face of Moses’ display of God’s power.

There is a difference between “could not” and “would not”…..God knew that Pharaoh’s heart was hardened against it right from the start. Egypt was a strong world power by then and Pharaoh’s position as leader of this powerful nation was widely known……it was time for the true God to show his strength in behalf of his people.
From a small family unit who came with Jacob to Egypt seeking food, Israel grew into a numerous people as God had promised Abraham. Under Joseph’s administration, (sent by God to Egypt long in advance) Israel prospered. It had been over 200 years since coming to Egypt when God, commissioned Moses to free his people at the age of 80.
Israel had become slaves of a Pharaoh who did not know Joseph, and the numbers of this people were growing to such an extent that Pharaoh felt threatened by them, so he subjugated them, ensuring that they would not rise up against him.

In allowing Pharaoh’s heart to remain obstinate, God would show his reasonableness by not carrying out his initial threat until the very last, but still the man wanted to gain the victory over the God who took his son in death. Had he been the least bit humble, or wise, there would have been a different outcome, but the Bible record stands as monument to Pharaoh’s choices, made in spite of the odds and the power of the true God that were against him.

Have you read Exodus?
You may have read but you don't see.

Believe as you wish.
 

BlessedPeace

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Exodus 7
Berean Standard BiblePar ▾

God Commands Moses and Aaron

1The LORD answered Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2You are to speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his land.
3But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I will multiply My signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, 4Pharaoh will not listen to you.
Then I will lay My hand on Egypt, and by mighty acts of judgment I will bring the divisions of My people the Israelites out of the land of Egypt. 5And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out from among them.”
6So Moses and Aaron did just as the LORD had commanded them. 7Moses was eighty years old and Aaron was eighty-three when they spoke to Pharaoh.
Aaron’s Staff
8The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 9“When Pharaoh tells you, ‘Perform a miracle,’ you are to say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh,’ and it will become a serpent.a
10So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the LORD had commanded. Aaron threw his staff down before Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a serpent.
11But Pharaoh called the wise men and sorcerers and magicians of Egypt, and they also did the same things by their magic arts. 12Each one threw down his staff, and it became a serpent. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up the other staffs.
13Still, Pharaoh’s heart was hardened,b and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.

The First Plague: Blood

14Then the LORD said to Moses, “Pharaoh’s heart is unyielding;c he refuses to let the people go. 15Go to Pharaoh in the morning as you see him walking out to the water. Wait on the bank of the Nile to meet him, and take in your hand the staff that was changed into a snake. 16Then say to him, ‘The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has sent me to tell you: Let My people go, so that they may worship Me in the wilderness. But you have not listened until now. 17This is what the LORD says: By this you will know that I am the LORD. Behold, with the staff in my hand I will strike the water of the Nile, and it will turn to blood. 18The fish in the Nile will die, the river will stink, and the Egyptians will be unable to drink its water.’ ”
19And the LORD said to Moses, “Tell Aaron, ‘Take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt—over their rivers and canals and ponds and reservoirs—that they may become blood.’ There will be blood throughout the land of Egypt, even in the vessels of wood and stone.”
20Moses and Aaron did just as the LORD had commanded; in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials, Aaron raised the staffd and struck the water of the Nile, and all the water was turned to blood. 21The fish in the Nile died, and the river smelled so bad that the Egyptians could not drink its water. And there was blood throughout the land of Egypt.
22But the magicians of Egypt did the same things by their magic arts. So Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said. 23Instead, Pharaoh turned around, went into his palace, and did not take any of this to heart. 24So all the Egyptians dug around the Nile for water to drink, because they could not drink the water from the river.
25And seven full days passed after the LORD had struck the Nile.

 

Aunty Jane

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You may have read but you don't see.

Believe as you wish.
Perhaps I could say the same for you as you have made no effort to see why God allowed Pharaoh’s heart to remain as it was…..see verse 3-5…

3But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I will multiply My signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, 4Pharaoh will not listen to you.
Then I will lay My hand on Egypt, and by mighty acts of judgment I will bring the divisions of My people the Israelites out of the land of Egypt. 5And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out from among them.”

Did God know that Pharaoh was going to double down on his decision not to let his slaves leave Egypt, even for a festival in honor of their God originally….? Does the great Omniscient One not “know the end from the beginning” of everything? Did he not already know Pharaoh’s heart was obstinate?
He chose not to soften it for the reason stated in verse 5….

You labor this point for some reason…why does it matter to you?…..and what difference does it make to the outcome….please tell me….
 

Phoneman777

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God said he would harden the Pharaohs heart.
Yes, but since that statement doesn't specify whether it was done by His word or by His nature - the Calvinist's claim that it was by His word is purely subjective opinion - not objective Biblical reasoning.
 

BlessedPeace

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Yes, but since that statement doesn't specify whether it was done by His word or by His nature - the Calvinist's claim that it was by His word is purely subjective opinion - not objective Biblical reasoning.
That's just ridiculous bigoted conjecture. Shame on you .
 

Phoneman777

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That's just ridiculous bigoted conjecture. Shame on you .
Shame on YOU for allowing yourself to be seduced by a satanic "religion of exclusivity" - the same kind practiced by Luciferians, catholics, occults, etc., and the rest of the "specially chosen".
 

BlessedPeace

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Shame on YOU for allowing yourself to be seduced by a satanic "religion of exclusivity" - the same kind practiced by Luciferians, catholics, occults, etc., and the rest of the "specially chosen".
Blame God. It's in his word. You can't see that and I can see why.
You can't discuss scripture when you don't know what it says.

Bye.
 
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Phoneman777

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Blame God. It's in his word. You can't see that and I can see why.
You can't discuss scripture when you don't know what it says.

Bye.
Blame God for what? Extending salvation to EVERYONE and not just you and your "specially chosen" ilk?

Many Luciferians/secret society folks think they're "specially chosen" because Satan appeared to them as an "angel of light" bearing "the truth" that the Bible is wrong, the Serpent was the "good guy", God and Jesus are unjust sycophants, and only the "chosen" will eventually inherit the Earth - and they fall for it hook, line, sinker.

Just like people who fall for the Christianized version of it: Calvinism
 

amigo de christo

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Well, sometimes, anyway.

Proverbs 14:12 " There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
There is a very BROAD inclusive way indeed that sure does seem soright to so many
but i warn us all the end of it will be the second death .
any love that either honors sins and lies , IT AINT LOVE at all . charity rejoices IN TRUTH , not lies , not sin .
AND unbelief IS SIN . so lets remember this the next time some sold out person tries to tell us
that other religoins are fine as long as they loved or that certain sins are good etc . CAUSE THAT AINT LOVE and it AINT OF GOD eithier .
 
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marks

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Different words are used that are all translated "hardened", so it's harder to see what it's saying in these chapters. I think it's worth anyone's while to read through these with some study helps to let you know which word you are looking at.

To me it reads like, Pharoah made his heart hard, and God made his heart stone, something like that. Like in John, maybe 8, or 10, the Pharisees, "they did not believe", and a few verses later, "they could not believe". Or Thessalonians 2, first, they did not receive the love for the truth, then, given over to strong delusion to believe the lie and be condemned.

Much love!
 

Phoneman777

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Different words are used that are all translated "hardened", so it's harder to see what it's saying in these chapters. I think it's worth anyone's while to read through these with some study helps to let you know which word you are looking at.

To me it reads like, Pharoah made his heart hard, and God made his heart stone, something like that. Like in John, maybe 8, or 10, the Pharisees, "they did not believe", and a few verses later, "they could not believe". Or Thessalonians 2, first, they did not receive the love for the truth, then, given over to strong delusion to believe the lie and be condemned.

Much love!
Interesting point...although I still say God never forces anyone to do or be anything. How can we be so sure? Jesus.

"He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father. How sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father and the Father in Me?"

Jesus never compelled anyone to feel one way or another - by His character and His arguments alone did He either draw or repel. ;)
 
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marks

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Interesting point...although I still say God never forces anyone to do or be anything. How can we be so sure? Jesus.

"He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father. How sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father and the Father in Me?"

Jesus never compelled anyone to feel one way or another - by His character and His arguments alone did He either draw or repel. ;)
I can be sure by the saying of Scripture. Exodus, concerning Pharaoh, 2 Thessalonians, Romans 1, all speak of those whom God has hardened, given over, deluded that they would be condemned. In fact there are and will be those whom God has judged to condemnation even while alive in this world.

Much love!