Co- Redemptrix

[Stranger]

How do YOU know?
God told you, did He?

You presume to know everything that God wills?
Your arrogance is astounding.

Anyway - I've already proven that "Kecharitomene" means "sinless".
NOBODY on earth is completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with Grace - except for Mary. The rest of us have to wait until we get to Heaven to reach this status.

How do I know Mary was not required to be sinless? Because there is nothing in Scripture to say she was. You want to say she was. But your use of 'kecharitomene' to do it is laughable.

And if Mary was required to be sinless due to protecting the birth of Jesus Christ, then why isn't Mary's mother required to be sinless to protect Mary from being sinless? See how ridiculous you have made it.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

I didn't say Mary gave birth to a mere human. I said Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man.

There is no heresy in what I have said. The heresy is that Mary was sinless. And it is not me that is saying that. Is it?

Stranger

No - YOUR heresy - like that of Nestorius is that you are attempting to separate Christ's 2 natures.
If Mary gave birth to the God Man - she gave birth to BOTH man and God.

You can't claim to believe in Jesus's Hypostatic Union and in the next breath claim that Mary simply gave birth to a "nature" . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

How do I know Mary was not required to be sinless? Because there is nothing in Scripture to say she was. You want to say she was. But your use of 'kecharitomene' to do it is laughable.

And if Mary was required to be sinless due to protecting the birth of Jesus Christ, then why isn't Mary's mother required to be sinless to protect Mary from being sinless? See how ridiculous you have made it.

Stranger

Interesting.
Soooo - because Scripture doesn't say that Mary was "required" to be sinless - it's just not so??

MOST Protestant believe that Mary had other children - yet the Bible NEVER makes this claim.
Tthe Bible never records ONE single incident of Jesus going to the bathroom. Do you believe that He "held it" for 33 years?

Yours This is an impotent argument . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Good post, and they call her their "queen", and not just any queen either, but the queen of heaven. Luke quotes Mary as explicitly stating God as her savior. Would an alleged "queen" of such caliber ever need a savior to start with?

She absolutely would.
Mary is not God and therefore, needed a Savior.

The difference between Mary and the rest of us is that we need a Savior because we've fallen into the mud of sin.
She was saved before she should fall in.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thanks for describing yourself to a tee, above.

Luke 1:46-47
46 And Mary said, my soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

See? Mary too has admitted she needed a savior.

If Mary was “sinless” (because a sinner /s declared her to be) then she must have come from “sinless” parents, and her parents from “sinless” grandparents...etc.! Can you prove this type of genealogy exists from Scriptures or if you prefer, from your church”s traditions?

Protestants don’t hate the Catholics. It is this type of teachings and doctrines are the reasons that your church is labeled a false church!

To God Be The Glory

This is an asinine argument.
Why would you even attempt to limit God's power??

You're saying that God cannot create a sinless person from sinful people. He can do ANYTHING He desires. You don't believe Jesus when He says that with God ALL things are possible (Matt. 19:26)??

Talk about disrespectful arrogance . . .

 

[Stranger]

No - YOUR heresy - like that of Nestorius is that you are attempting to separate Christ's 2 natures.
If Mary gave birth to the God Man - she gave birth to BOTH man and God.

You can't claim to believe in Jesus's Hypostatic Union and in the next breath claim that Mary simply gave birth to a "nature" . . .

Where did I attempt to separate Christ's two natures?

Where did I say Mary simply gave birth to a nature?

You say Mary gave birth to both man and God. Who is separating the two natures now? Mary gave birth to the God/Man, Jesus Christ. She did not give birth to God, as the Deity that was the Son existed in eternity past.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Interesting.
Soooo - because Scripture doesn't say that Mary was "required" to be sinless - it's just not so??

MOST Protestant believe that Mary had other children - yet the Bible NEVER makes this claim.
Tthe Bible never records ONE single incident of Jesus going to the bathroom. Do you believe that He "held it" for 33 years?

Yours This is an impotent argument . . .

Concerning Christ being born sinless, God has given us much information of how this was accomplished. He did so because it was necessary to avoid the original sin of Adam. Had it been necessary to have Mary born sinless or without sin to accomplish this, He would have. But He didn't.

And how could Mary be born sinless without her mother being without sin or having a virgin birth also? Ridiculous.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

and that's putting it nicely imo

 

[BreadOfLife]

Where did I attempt to separate Christ's two natures?

Where did I say Mary simply gave birth to a nature?

You say Mary gave birth to both man and God. Who is separating the two natures now? Mary gave birth to the God/Man, Jesus Christ. She did not give birth to God, as the Deity that was the Son existed in eternity past.

Stranger

The ONLY thing you correctly stated so far is that Mary gave birth to the God Man.
As I have been telling you for the last dozen or so posts - she gave birth to GOD.

She didn't create Him - anymore than YOUR mother created YOU.
She gave Birth to Him.

 

[aspen]

Jesus was not simply Mary’s son - as if he were a genetic clone. His very DNA was human and divine. If it were not so, He would only be an adopted son of God, like the rest of us.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Concerning Christ being born sinless, God has given us much information of how this was accomplished. He did so because it was necessary to avoid the original sin of Adam. Had it been necessary to have Mary born sinless or without sin to accomplish this, He would have. But He didn't.

And how could Mary be born sinless without her mother being without sin or having a virgin birth also? Ridiculous.

Stranger

I'll take the last part of your faithless statement first.
God can do ANYTHING He wills - even creating a woman from sinful parents.

As to whether or not Mary HAD to be sinless - that has never been my argument. I simply said that you couldn't possibly know the entire will of God. What I AM saying is that maybe that's the way God wanted it - regardless of whether it was "necessary".

ONE thing is for sure - the Angel let Mary know that she was completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with God's grace.
A completed action - with a permanent result.

 

[Stranger]

The ONLY thing you correctly stated so far is that Mary gave birth to the God Man.
As I have been telling you for the last dozen or so posts - she gave birth to GOD.

She didn't create Him - anymore than YOUR mother created YOU.
She gave Birth to Him.

No, Mary gave birth to the God/Man, not God. God has no beginning. The God/Man does.

Stranger

 

[aspen]

No, Mary gave birth to the God/Man, not God. God has no beginning. The God/Man does.

Stranger

Jesus does not have a beginning either, according to Revelation; He is the Alpha and Omega

 

[Stranger]

I'll take the last part of your faithless statement first.
God can do ANYTHING He wills - even creating a woman from sinful parents.

As to whether or not Mary HAD to be sinless - that has never been my argument. I simply said that you couldn't possibly know the entire will of God. What I AM saying is that maybe that's the way God wanted it - regardless of whether it was "necessary".

ONE thing is for sure - the Angel let Mary know that she was completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with God's grace.
A completed action - with a permanent result.

Of course God can do what He wants. He can create a woman from sinful parents...through a virgin birth...just like Christ was. Yet, we are not told that Mary was the product of a virgin birth.

That Mary was sinless has been your argument. Concerning 'the way God wanted it' God never does anything that is not necessary.

One thing is for sure is that Mary was not sinless; that she was stained with Adams sin just like you and I.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Jesus does not have a beginning either, according to Revelation; He is the Alpha and Omega

Jesus does have a beginning; His birth into this world. The union of Deity and human did not start until then. Chapter and verse of what you cite.

Stranger

 

[aspen]

Jesus does have a beginning; His birth into this world. The union of Deity and human did not start until then. Chapter and verse of what you cite.

Stranger

Hebrews 13:8

 

[Jun2u]

This is an asinine argument.

Is it? To you it might be an asinine argument, you did NOT at all respond to the Scripture I offered, which refuted your claim as to the state of Mary being “sinless.” Are you now trying to put reverse psychology towards your arguments? Is this a ploy taught by your church or just you?

Why would you even attempt to limit God's power??

No one here is limiting the power of God we serve, except the god you have created, which by the way, is not the God of the Bible!

You're saying that God cannot create a sinless person from sinful people. He can do ANYTHING He desires. You don't believe Jesus when He says that with God ALL things are possible (Matt. 19:26)??

Of course, all things are possible with Almighty God, but He’s given us rules and He too abides by those rules. God does not nonchalantly impose His will upon anyone just because He is Sovereign.

God has given His people fundamental principles how they might be able to discern spiritual things. And one of those principles is that, a bad tree cannot produce good fruits nor can a good tree produce bad fruits, as liken to “sinful” parents producing “sinless” children!

The only time God created man “sinless” was with Adam and Eve before the fall.

Mary needed a Savior like anybody else as she also admitted in her magnificat.

Talk about disrespectful arrogance . . .

I suggest you look in the mirror when you call others disrespectful and arrogant.

To God Be The Glory

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, Mary gave birth to the God/Man, not God. God has no beginning. The God/Man does.

Stranger

You're trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth.
You acknowledge that Jesus is God - and that Mary gave birth to the God Man - but she didn't give birth to God??

This is a preposterous position you've put yourself in . . .

 

[Richard_oti]

no, but neither can we possibly consider her sinless from birth, else she did not need Christ, and so then neither does anyone else, seems to me. All have sinned becomes a lie

"There are none that seek".

Regardless of such all inclusive statements, we see that some were accounted as righteous. That there were some that sought, otherwise they could not have been accounted as such.

 

[Richard_oti]

how do these need to be reconciled, in your opinion?
In mine, Mary just got confession unto salvation quite early, as she was "chosen," but then so was John Baptist; was he sinless too?

Per Luke, John tB was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb. Of what sin would you convict a man filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb?

I would say that Mary lived lawfully in full faith of "God" her Saviour. And if she did sin, *IF*, she had confession and repentance. But again, of what sin can we possibly convict her? Of what sin would any of us dare accuse her? Do we dare accuse unjustly? As we have no knowledge of such, could we not also be bearing false witness in accusing someone of something that we do not know. Or perhaps, we should say he [JtB] had a "demon".

"no Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins will die"

Even with Christ, if you or I or anyone should choose to return or to continue to live a life of sin, shall Christ be of any avail?

And if we partake of the Holy Spirit, taste of the "good", and then return as a dog to it's vomit to sin, what may we expect?

"Go and sin no more, lest a worse thing befall you"

Same with "pick up your cross and follow".