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justbyfaith

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No one here is claiming that we can.

I made an issue of the number because the actual number of positive commands in the Old Testament is closer to 300, and I believe accuracy is pretty important to you. :)
Others have done the research on this and I do believe that it is on the internet what the 613 commandments are specifically.

It is not just 300....613 is the more accurate number.
 

BarneyFife

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Others have done the research on this and I do believe that it is on the internet what the 613 commandments are specifically.

It is not just 300....613 is the more accurate number.
Have you ever been wrong? I could gather the evidence but what good would it do? lol

I shouldn't even have mentioned it. You didn't even address my main point, anyway.

More and more people are realizing that the "not under the law" bit is just spiritualistic, antinomianist baloney, regardless of the good intentions of the messengers. Thinking of integrating this into my signature.

No offense. I've grown quite fond of you, you know. It's just that I'm under a little personal strain right now and mincing words is losing its luster to me. Speaking the truth in love is up for interpretation, it seems, I think.
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
So, how and why did you believe that God created the heavens and the earth?
That's another subject. I don't want to confuse the issue. Faith is the ability to transcend current limitations. Abraham used faith to believe in God for things he didn't deserve. God considered that just because it is the very basis by which we obtain forgiveness.
I don’t think this is another subject. My question simple aims to find out how and why you believed that God created the heavens and the earth. It would tell me if it was different in your case compared to mine.

Tong2020 said:
Here’s that came to mind. Consider the thief on the cross, crucified together with Jesus at Calvary. He believed in Jesus Christ. Was his faith genuine or not? Based on what Jesus told him, I believe his faith was genuine. Was there work involved in his faith? I see none. If none, does it mean his faith was not genuine? Not necessarily so, isn’t it?
John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

You say that "work" is not "faith." But in this quote, Jesus says that "work" is, in fact, "faith!" Genuine faith produces deeds. I showed you that James claims this. You just refuse to believe it!

James 2.14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

Genuine faith, therefore, contains, of necessity, good deeds, or good works. But you would contradict James?
I just showed you a genuine faith in the case of the thief on the cross.

Tong2020 said:
So it is clear that you take faith as an act, a work then, a kind of work. We just then have to agree to disagree. For you, faith is work, and on the other hand, I take faith as not work and different from work. For me, faith is of the spirit, or spiritual. It is similar to love and hope, in nature, that is, of the spirit or spiritual. And they aren’t works.

If faith is work and faith comes from and is given by God, what becomes of faith? Whose work is it? If one believes, whose work is it?
Man works with the pardon that God gives. We work by having access to God's Spirit and righteousness. We put His righteousness into use. We take the works of Christ, by which he atoned for our sins, and utilize his righteousness to prove that our faith is genuine by doing good deeds.

If you want to continue opposing my views, you need to answer James 2.14 and John 6.29. You have not and cannot do so. And that's because you reject the idea that Paul uses shortcuts to express larger concepts in fewer words. His view of "works" and "faith" have a context. And you try to apply a narrow definition of these words in all contexts. That doesn't work, nor is it even reasonable.

But yes, we can agree to disagree. Thanks for the time.
God knows your heart. Must you need to prove it, it’s really *not* for God’s sake.

Do you think you need to prove your faith to be genuine, to God? Why?

Tong
R1892
 
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Perhaps. Should we not here give our take on what work is?
That has been my burden from the start. Paul is using "works" as an abbreviation for "works of the Law," or "autonomous works, separate from the atonement of Christ."
But before that, what do you say is works?

Tong2020 said:
Now you got me confused.
Please cite relevant scriptures.
But what does that make of what scriptures say that the gift of the Holy Spirit will be given to those who believe?
Why, would you reject him out of duress?
I did not quite get that.
I'll try to say it using different words. Adam and Eve did not abandon God with eyes wide open. They were deceived. Temptation was the "duress" they were under when they made the decision to act apart from God's word. And because they acted "under duress," God gave mankind a 2nd chance.

Jesus said in the Scriptures that men would reject him, but not necessarily the Holy Spirit. Before men come to Christ they are under all kinds of illusions about what Christ represented, and Christ granted them time to make mistakes and reject him for the wrong reasons.

When men, however, finally accept Christ, they do so knowing who he really is, and therefore receive the Holy Spirit. Some men, however, reject not just Jesus but also the Holy Spirit. They receive a true witness of who Christ is, and don't want him. And so, they reject both Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

When men come to that point and do things like call Jesus demon possessed, they have crossed a line and commit the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Rejecting Jesus after knowing who he really is and what he really represents there is nothing more that Jesus can offer them. They will never get saved.
It was not a case of duress with Eve and Adam. Eve was deceived ~ not duress. Adam was not deceived. Adam have heeded the voice of his wife and freely ate of the fruit ~ not duress.

<<<He said men can reject him without rejecting the gift of the Holy Spirit.>>>

Please cite relevant scriptures.

Regarding blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, as I said, rejecting Jesus Christ is different from the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. If you told one about Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and asked him if he believes in Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and he said he don’t believe, is he guilty of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or unbelief or rejection? The point is, unbelief and rejection of the Holy Spirit is different from blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R1893
 

Randy Kluth

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But before that, what do you say is works?

"Works" is a generic word that must have a context to be understood. All biblical "works" in the OT, following the Fall, are works that are either good or evil, but works that cannot acquire eternal value apart from the atonement of Christ. That's because all men had to die after the Fall, and could not be raised from the dead, salvaging their good works, unless appeal was made to Christ's atonement, which had not yet happened in the OT.

It was not a case of duress with Eve and Adam. Eve was deceived ~ not duress. Adam was not deceived. Adam have heeded the voice of his wife and freely ate of the fruit ~ not duress.

I'm using the word in the sense of "illicit pressure from outside of the victim." Adam and Eve were not self-motivated to rebel against God, apart from the temptation being applied by the Devil, who wanted them to fall under condemnation.

Please cite relevant scriptures.

Matt 12.32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Regarding blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, as I said, rejecting Jesus Christ is different from the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. If you told one about Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and asked him if he believes in Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and he said he don’t believe, is he guilty of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or unbelief or rejection? The point is, unbelief and rejection of the Holy Spirit is different from blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R1893

Rejection of Christ eternally and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit are related, but yes--they are not the same. "Blasphemy" has to do with the insult associated with confirming eternal rejection of Christ. To call Jesus "demon possessed" is intentionally crossing a line. It constitutes an eternal rejection of Christ when it is done in the willful denunciation of the Spirit of God.
 

Randy Kluth

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I don’t think this is another subject. My question simple aims to find out how and why you believed that God created the heavens and the earth. It would tell me if it was different in your case compared to mine.

Actually, I did answer the question. Faith in Creation transcends the limitations of the normal operation of Natural Law. That is how I described Faith, as "the ability to transcend current limitations."

I just showed you a genuine faith in the case of the thief on the cross.

I just quoted you John 6.29.

John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Jesus here explained that faith is a "work." It does not mean it has to be a typical work, such as farming in a field, building a house, or cleaning a room. What makes Faith a "work" is the fact it is an act of obedience to a word from God demanding such from a person.

Acts of obedience are good works, but do not obtain eternal value apart from Christ's atonement as the object of the faith. The "work" of Faith follows us into eternity once Christ has died for our sins and we are able to direct our Faith towards that accomplishment. Believing in Christ's resurrection on our behalf enables our good works of obedience to follow us into eternity.

The Faith of the Thief on the Cross was the simplest of "works," but by Jesus' definition, this act of obedience was indeed a "good work!" He believed in the "one God sent to him."

God knows your heart. Must you need to prove it, it’s really for God’s sake.

Do you think you need to prove your faith to be genuine, to God? Why?

Tong
R1892

Do we need to *obey* God? Yes, definitely! It's not just about proving ourselves--it's about doing the right thing, the thing we were created to do, living in God's image.

If we don't prove our Faith, we prove that we reject God's word, and cannot be saved. Only those who respond positively to God's word to their heart will find eternal life. The rest will not.
 
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Again, for me, faith is not work, as love and hope are. It is spirit, as love and hope are.
Love is spirit, you say? How so? A spirit is an entity, such as "God's spirit" or "our spirit," or "angelic spirits." But faith is an attitude--not a spirit.

I don't see "love" and "hope" as spirits, either, unless you view "love" as God, who is a spirit. All these things consist of our willingness to participate in the virtues of God. They are willful compliance, on our part, with God's word as to how we should live in His image.

Love participates in the benevolence of God. Hope participates in working together with the invisible God, anticipating producing things in the future together with Him. Faith is the choice to accept that we can do more through God, who is greater than who we are alone.

It seems you constantly want to turn truth into a dichotomy between matter and spirit, which sounds an awful lot like Gnosticism or dualistic religion. That's a bad direction to go in. The material world is not evil. God made it good.
<<<Love is spirit, you say? How so? A spirit is an entity, such as "God's spirit" or "our spirit," or "angelic spirits." But faith is an attitude--not a spirit.>>>

Yes love is of the spirit, meaning spiritual. It pertains not and belongs not to the physical or material realm. It is a quality therefore that is of the spirit or something that is spiritual and of spiritual nature. Love coming from God has inherent power. Like love, faith is of the spirit ~ spiritual. It is not work. It pertains not and belongs not to the physical or material realm. It is a quality therefore that is of the spirit or something that is spiritual and of spiritual nature. Faith coming from God has inherent power. It is not work.

Tong2020 said:
I am sorry, because for me, it’s not. Even in the Law, when the priest makes atonement for the people, the people does not get to be justified for their sin, but that the wrath of God does not come upon them, as a consequence of their sin.
I beg to differ with you. The whole purpose of atonement under the Law was to make just the sinner, who otherwise would be viewed as unjust. That's what "justify" means, to make a person appear as just.

Well, I beg to differ with your definition of “justify” and so then with atonement and the purpose of atonement.

Tong
R1894
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Where they prevented from seeking in their animal sacrifices final atonement? Where they led to Christ?
Yes, that's what I said. The Law showed Israel a poor substitute for Christ so that they would only partly rely on the Law and ultimately rely on Christ. They looked as in a mirror, seeing darkly that they continually needed more and more atoning sacrifices, until Messiah came.
I beg to disagree.

Tong2020 said:
Yes, Israel, the law being a shadow, could not see clearly what it foreshadows. So that, God did not fail to send them word about Him. Moses knew of the Messiah and preached Him to Israel. God sent His word about the Messiah to them. They knew of a promised Messiah who will be their Savior. Why is that? Where would that be coming from? But why they knew differently of the Messiah is another matter.

Firstly, the lock up was not under the condemnation of sin, but under sin, that is, under the control of sin. For sin does not condemn but brings one unto judgment and condemnation. It is God who condemns the sinner through His word, to which Paul refers to when he refers to Scriptures. Now before even the law, that is, the law of Moses, was given, all mankind were locked up under sin ~ under the control of sin. Wickedness was all over the earth, so wicked even that God destroyed them all saved Noah and his family of 7 at that time. It was no different after that, for according to God, every intents of the thoughts of the heart of man was continually evil, even from childhood. Then came the time of Moses, and in line with the covenant He made with Abraham, God now, from among the peoples of the earth, have chosen the children of Israel, to make them His people, a holy nation and a kingdom of priests. So that He made a covenant with them to which He added a codified body of laws, the Law of Moses, to keep them under guard, because of transgressions, and bring them to the Messiah, that they might be justified by faith, and be freed from their being locked up under sin ~ under the control of sin. So, it could not be that God, by the law, locked them up again, as they were already locked up before He had made a covenant with them.
Yes, we don't agree on this. I believe the Law confirmed what you say the Scriptures had been doing previously, namely "locking people up." But you're wrong, as I see it. They were locked up under the "condemnation" of sin, and not under the "control" of sin. To state that men were controlled by sin, and could only be wicked is disproven by the presence of saints before the Law.
Scriptures gives us a better picture of man and his heart, before the law. You can start with Gen.6. God himself said of man that every intents of the thoughts of the heart of man was continually evil, even from childhood. If there be any man that was not as God said there of man and was said to be righteous, I believe it could only be because of God’s grace and help.

<<<But you're wrong, as I see it. They were locked up under the "condemnation" of sin, and not under the "control" of sin.>>>

Gal.3:22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. (NIV)

Tong2020 said:
As I have pointed out, the lock up is not under the condemnation of sin but under the control of sin. I have explained that in the segment above.
Yes, I think this is where you mess up. People were not out of control and hopeless in sin before the Law. The Law confirmed the previous curse of God upon men, indicating they were *condemned to death" as long as they had the Sin Nature. That curse was lifted after Christ rose from the dead, because even though Christians continue to die, they can now rise from the dead and defeat the curse.

The whole deal in having the Spirit of Christ in the NT is the fact the curse of the Law has been lifted. Since we are no longer under the condemnation of sin, we no longer have to offer animal sacrifices as a temporary peace offering. We are free from the requirement to purify ourselves on a temporary basis, and no longer live without final atonement.

<<<People were not out of control and hopeless in sin before the Law.>>>

Gal.3:22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. (NIV)

As to whether man, before the law, were out of control or not, We can go read Gen.6 and Romans 1.

Tong
1895
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
There was Randy, not to Israel but to Abraham. God commanded Abraham to offer Isaac to Him as a burnt offering (Gen. 22:2). So, look at that commandment. What can you say about the matter that it involves the sacrificing of one’s son to pass through the fire as a burnt offering to Him, something the pagans do in worshiping their gods and which God abhors?
God showed Isaac he sometimes requires sacrifice in our lives because of our Sin Nature. Inasmuch as God did not follow through and require Isaac's death it showed God was *not* like the pagans.

When we do lose someone we love it is due to the tragedy of our living in a sinful world--not because God is like the pagan gods who are blood thirsty and require pacification. The only kind of "pacification" God requires is submission to His will, and not any kind of desire on the part of God to return evil for evil.

That is, God doesn't try to balance accounts. We can never pay for our sins. We must simply submit to His forgiveness. That being said, we still have to submit to His will to have us live out our lives in a sinful world with unavoidable problems.
Apparently, we see quite differently regarding the command of God to Abraham to offer Isaac to Him as a burnt offering. This is what I see. The commandment was God’s way of testing Abraham. Obviously not for His sake for He is omniscient. The matter that it involves the sacrificing of one’s son to pass through the fire as a burnt offering to Him, something the pagans do in worshiping their gods and which God abhors, tells me about the test. Not that God is pleased with the pagan practice. Such practice was something that Abraham was familiar with, as he formerly was and belonged to a pagan family who worship other gods. As we can read, that part of the testing was not really the matter with Abraham, but with God’s promise. That testing defined, if not, demonstrated, what faith in God is.

Tong2020 said:
And....what scriptures in Gen.15:6 says clearly “And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.” ~ it is faith and really nothing else. And we have learned what faith he have, for his works have shown it. Not only that, God even put him to the test and passed the test. Not concerning his work, but his faith.
Well, if you see no appreciable difference between atonement and forgiveness of sin....
No, I see no appreciable difference between atonement for sin and the forgiveness of sin. They mean the same thing, except that atonement is the means by which God forgave our sin for all time.

I've already given you my take on "faith for righteousness." Jesus said faith is a work, and we know that faith, then, as a work justifies.

It just is not the kind of work that earns eternal life. Paul spoke against the kind of work that thought it could earn eternal life, which the Jews did under the Law when they rejected Christ.

In that sense, faith is not "works." "Works" is an abbreviation for works that attempt, without Christ, to obtain eternal life by merit.

True faith makes use of Christ's grace to do works of faith. As such, this is a different kind of "work" and does justify for eternal life, because it relies on Christ's atonement for the necessary pardon to have our works accepted. This kind of "work" makes use of Christ's virtues to please him and to have our works follow us into eternity.

<<<No, I see no appreciable difference between atonement for sin and the forgiveness of sin. They mean the same thing, except that atonement is the means by which God forgave our sin for all time.>>>

Well, that’s it with you then, and not for me. Atonement is not God’s way of forgiving our sin, but holding His wrath upon our wickedness and unrighteousness. God’s forgiving sins is coming from His love, mercy, and grace whom He gives according to His will, purpose, and pleasure. And in these last days, we learned all that and better understand it, when He demonstrated it concerning Jesus Christ.

<<<I've already given you my take on "faith for righteousness." Jesus said faith is a work, and we know that faith, then, as a work justifies.>>>

It is not faith that justifies. It is God.

<<<"Works" is an abbreviation for works that attempt, without Christ, to obtain eternal life by merit. >>>

What work is, is something that is done by one, different from something that he have, like faith for example, or hope, or love.

Tong
R1896
 

Randy Kluth

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<<<Love is spirit, you say? How so? A spirit is an entity, such as "God's spirit" or "our spirit," or "angelic spirits." But faith is an attitude--not a spirit.>>>

Yes love is of the spirit, meaning spiritual. It pertains not and belongs not to the physical or material realm. It is a quality therefore that is of the spirit or something that is spiritual and of spiritual nature. Love coming from God has inherent power. Like love, faith is of the spirit ~ spiritual. It is not work. It pertains not and belongs not to the physical or material realm. It is a quality therefore that is of the spirit or something that is spiritual and of spiritual nature. Faith coming from God has inherent power. It is not work.
Well, I beg to differ with your definition of “justify” and so then with atonement and the purpose of atonement.

Tong
R1894

I disagree, but you and I will have to carry on our conversation elsewhere. The original purpose of the thread is being forgotten.
 
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
But before that, what do you say is works?
"Works" is a generic word that must have a context to be understood. All biblical "works" in the OT, following the Fall, are works that are either good or evil, but works that cannot acquire eternal value apart from the atonement of Christ. That's because all men had to die after the Fall, and could not be raised from the dead, salvaging their good works, unless appeal was made to Christ's atonement, which had not yet happened in the OT.
Yes, of course, context pins down what a word means. But, context does not take away the basic concept in a word. Whether works is bad or good, is determined by the qualifier or the context, but it does not take away the basic concept of what work is.

Tong2020 said:
It was not a case of duress with Eve and Adam. Eve was deceived ~ not duress. Adam was not deceived. Adam have heeded the voice of his wife and freely ate of the fruit ~ not duress.
I'm using the word in the sense of "illicit pressure from outside of the victim." Adam and Eve were not self-motivated to rebel against God, apart from the temptation being applied by the Devil, who wanted them to fall under condemnation.
Nonetheless, my point remains, Adam did not sin under duress nor did Eve.

If you consider Eve’s sin and Adam’s sin, then all sin resulting from temptations outside of self would be under duress. And I don’t think that is correct, for Eve was not forced at all to eat of the tree. She was deceived. Adam was not forced either nor was deceived, but ate freely. A sin done in duress is one committed because he is forced to do the sinful act, usually in consideration of facing death or the safety of a loved one, or incurring a great lost.

Tong2020 said:
Please cite relevant scriptures.
Matt 12.32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Sorry, but I was asking for scriptures which shows what you said, that Jesus said men can reject him without rejecting the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That is scriptures about the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Tong2020 said:
Regarding blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, as I said, rejecting Jesus Christ is different from the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. If you told one about Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and asked him if he believes in Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and he said he don’t believe, is he guilty of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or unbelief or rejection? The point is, unbelief and rejection of the Holy Spirit is different from blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Rejection of Christ eternally and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit are related, but yes--they are not the same. "Blasphemy" has to do with the insult associated with confirming eternal rejection of Christ. To call Jesus "demon possessed" is intentionally crossing a line. It constitutes an eternal rejection of Christ when it is done in the willful denunciation of the Spirit of God.
So, at least now you come to agree that rejection of Jesus and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, are not the same.

So, my statement below which you objected to, then remains to be not refuted and holds.

“If one rejects Jesus, he rejects the gift of the Holy Spirit, for God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to dwell in those who believes in Jesus Christ.”

Tong
R1897
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
I don’t think this is another subject. My question simple aims to find out how and why you believed that God created the heavens and the earth. It would tell me if it was different in your case compared to mine.
Actually, I did answer the question. Faith in Creation transcends the limitations of the normal operation of Natural Law. That is how I described Faith, as "the ability to transcend current limitations."
Perhaps, but the question is not what faith in creation is according to you, but how and why you believed that God created the heavens and the earth.

Tong2020 said:
I just showed you a genuine faith in the case of the thief on the cross.
I just quoted you John 6.29.

John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Jesus here explained that faith is a "work." It does not mean it has to be a typical work, such as farming in a field, building a house, or cleaning a room. What makes Faith a "work" is the fact it is an act of obedience to a word from God demanding such from a person.

Acts of obedience are good works, but do not obtain eternal value apart from Christ's atonement as the object of the faith. The "work" of Faith follows us into eternity once Christ has died for our sins and we are able to direct our Faith towards that accomplishment. Believing in Christ's resurrection on our behalf enables our good works of obedience to follow us into eternity.

The Faith of the Thief on the Cross was the simplest of "works," but by Jesus' definition, this act of obedience was indeed a "good work!" He believed in the "one God sent to him."
Was the thief’s faith genuine or not? That is the question. Was there work involved in his faith? I see none. If none, does it mean his faith was not genuine? Not necessarily so, isn’t it?

Now, what faith is, is different from the act of believing. The act of believing, I could take as work. However, That does not make faith to be work.

In the passage “this is the work of God”, yes to believe in Jesus is something that we do, and in that sense a work we do. But that work is not what faith is, but is a work that comes from and a product of faith. Without faith from and given by God to the man, one cannot do that work. And that was even evident in the context. That work is one that God enables them to do, and is not some work that they do by their own ability. God enables them to do that work by giving them faith. So faith, even with that is not work and work is not faith. At least that is my view of what faith is and what work is.

Tong2020 said:
God knows your heart. Must you need to prove it, it’s *not* really for God’s sake.

Do you think you need to prove your faith to be genuine, to God? Why?
Do we need to *obey* God? Yes, definitely! It's not just about proving ourselves--it's about doing the right thing, the thing we were created to do, living in God's image.

If we don't prove our Faith, we prove that we reject God's word, and cannot be saved. Only those who respond positively to God's word to their heart will find eternal life. The rest will not.
Of course we should obey God. But obeying or not is not the issue we are discussing, but about faith, if genuine or not.

As I said, our obedience, our doing good works, shows proof of our having faith and demonstrates what faith we have. But that really is not because God needs proof, for He is omniscient. Obviously, such are not for God’s sake but for us and others. Proving it to ourselves and to others, is not a matter of getting us saved or not.

Tong
R1898
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
<<<Love is spirit, you say? How so? A spirit is an entity, such as "God's spirit" or "our spirit," or "angelic spirits." But faith is an attitude--not a spirit.>>>

Yes love is of the spirit, meaning spiritual. It pertains not and belongs not to the physical or material realm. It is a quality therefore that is of the spirit or something that is spiritual and of spiritual nature. Love coming from God has inherent power. Like love, faith is of the spirit ~ spiritual. It is not work. It pertains not and belongs not to the physical or material realm. It is a quality therefore that is of the spirit or something that is spiritual and of spiritual nature. Faith coming from God has inherent power. It is not work.
Well, I beg to differ with your definition of “justify” and so then with atonement and the purpose of atonement.
I disagree, but you and I will have to carry on our conversation elsewhere. The original purpose of the thread is being forgotten.
Ok. Will wait for the link.

Tong
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Cooper

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There is a list here of the 613 Mitzvot Laws complete with scripture references.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Commandments.htm

Looking at the list we can see they did include the Ten Commandments within Jewish Law as you would expect them to do. That is fine and good but for me personally not being Jewish, I do not accept the Jewish additions to the Ten Commandments. One reason is the inclusion of the death sentence despite it being forbidden by God. To have power over life and death makes them equal with the Almighty.
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Randy Kluth

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There is a list here of the 613 Mitzvot Laws complete with scripture references.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Commandments.htm

Looking at the list we can see they did include the Ten Commandments within Jewish Law as you would expect them to do. That is fine and good but for me personally not being Jewish, I do not accept the Jewish additions to the Ten Commandments. One reason is the inclusion of the death sentence despite it being forbidden by God. To have power over life and death makes them equal with the Almighty.
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The Law certainly includes death sentences! God did not forbid capital punishment. He commanded it, and demonstrated it as a necessary part of Israel's criminal justice system.