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Featured Colossians 2:14-16 - The Law That Was Against Us

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by BarnyFife, Jan 4, 2021.

  1. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    Of course you have read scriptures pertaining to that. God tested Abraham and told him to offer Isaac to Him by a burnt offering. It was clear to Abraham that it was God who told him to do that. But what I want you to look at is the commandment of God. It involves the sacrificing of one’s son to pass through the fire as a burnt offering to Him, something the pagans do in worshiping their gods and which God abhors. What can you say about that?

    <<<This sounds too much like simple "belief," which the Scriptures say did not justify the devils. They believe God exists, but refuse to obey Him.>>>
    And why would the devil be justified? Is there justification for devils? And not that they refuse to obey God, but that they rebelled against God. Actually, when Jesus commands demons, like when He cast them out, they obey. Satan also obeys God like in the case of Job. So let’s not talk about them for apparently they have a different situation with God. Besides, it is not believing or faith that justifies, it is God.

    <<<No, faith is not just "belief in" something, but more, acceptance of the terms of a relationship between God and Man.>>>

    That’s then adding to faith, if not, redefining faith. Faith is given by God, a gift. When God justified Abraham, it is not because of anything else, but on account of faith, his sincere, complete and full trust and total dependence in God. We can see that in Gen. 15, when God justified him. There were no terms. The relationship came about through faith and after faith.

    So, I can see that you do take atonement as not different or the same as forgiveness of sin.

    For me, atonement is different from forgiveness of sin. By atonement, it means to provide a covering of our uncleanness and wickedness, that appease God, which if such is acceptable to God, will hold his wrath from coming upon us. And Jesus Christ’s sacrifice for atonement, the offering of his most holy and precious blood for mankind, was pleasing and acceptable to God.

    Now the sacrifice of Christ proves to be more than can atone for the sins of the world, but even was more than sufficient as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, for the people whom God had given to Him to obtain for them mercy unto forgiveness of their sins make them perfect and holy, conformed to His image, even as children of God.

    Tong
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  2. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    Yes Christ did not. Atonement is different from sanctification and perfection. Sanctification and perfection, while are with Christ, a finished work, with the Christians, it is an unfolding reality, so to speak.


    The genuineness of faith lies in the heart of man. It is shown through good works, that of a living faith. Not for God to see, but for people to see, that testifies to them of the goodness and work of God in him and through him, and of the righteousness of God. Nonetheless, it’s faith, not work.

    If one rejects Jesus, he rejects the gift of the Holy Spirit, for God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to dwell in those who believes in Jesus Christ.

    However, rejecting Jesus Christ is different from the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

    As a side, why is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit without forgiveness? What are your thoughts on that?

    Tong
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  3. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.

    I have no reason to believe God is less concerned with our "works of faith" than men, who witness them? We are in disagreement because we utilize different definitions of the word "works."

    Again, this has been my whole argument. We cannot integrate all of these biblical facts unless we understand how Paul is using the word "works" in context. He is using the word "works" as an abbreviation for "works that justify apart from Christ," or "works that retain the condemnation of sin, prohibiting the inheritance of eternal life."

    Work, following pardon, is an essential part of faith. Indeed, faith is the very "work" that obtains pardon, although it is a different kind of "work" that Paul is referring to, because it relies upon the righteousness of God and upon the mercy of God for that pardon.

    Faith pleases God precisely because it is not self-autonomous and independent of God. On the contrary, it relies upon God and responds positively to God. It acts in good faith upon God's propositions. It responds to God's word by *doing* that word, by obeying that word.

    No, that's the opposite of what Jesus said. He said men can reject him without rejecting the gift of the Holy Spirit. But I agree that some who reject Jesus are in fact rejecting the Holy Spirit as well. That also was what Jesus was saying. The difference is a matter of discernment. Is Jesus being rejected from the heart, or only out of duress?

    The temptations of Adam and Eve were instigated by Satan, and thus, man's decision against God's word was made under duress. This provides a basis for God's patience and for His forgiveness, if man is willing to recover his sensibilities and make the right decisions in the end.

    That's what I was answering above. I hope it helps?
     
  4. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    There is no such command. God never had Israel kill their children except when He turned them over to their own independent ways, and gave them up to their enemies.

    Actually, the biblical account indicates that the expression of Abraham's faith was predicated upon a covenant relationship. God made a covenant with Abraham in Gen 12, and described him as righteous by faith in Gen 15. The thing Abraham believed God for involved the multiplication of his faith among many heirs of that faith. It was belief in God's righteousness that made Abraham himself righteous. And his righteousness was displayed in his works, and in his obedience to God's word, such as in the offering up of his son Isaac and in his righteous behavior among men.

    Abraham was righteous for all these reasons, and not just because of faith. Paul was talking about Abraham's faith preceding the works associated with the Law of Moses, which had not come yet. And the part of the Law that existed at that time, namely circumcision, was also excluded from this righteousness by faith, because it was excluding entirely anything associated with a Law that did not permanently atone for sin. The purpose was to show that Abraham's faith was designed to ultimately transcend the Law and its curse through the future atonement of Christ.

    I don't see any appreciable difference between your view of "atonement" and mine? Both refer to a covering for our sin, which I call "the forgiveness of sin," or a "pardon?"
     
  5. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    These things are not mutually exclusive. Both can be true. The Law prevented Israel from seeking in their animal sacrifices final atonement, and it led them to Christ by keeping them holy and in relationship with God in the meantime.

    How can the Law "already reveal" Christ if he had yet to be revealed? I agree the Law contained foreshadowings of Christ, conceptually. For example, the animal sacrifices indicated an immediate need for atonement in order to sustain a relationship with God. But it was not immediately understood that Christ would provide, in his death, a final atonement for sin.

    Yes, we absolutely disagree on this. I believe Paul was explaining how the Scriptures used the Law to keep Israel "locked up" under the condemnation of sin until Christ's final atonement could be made.

    And my point is that the Law was part of those Scriptures that "locked men up" in the OT era, because final atonement for their sins had not yet been made by Christ. The Law, in other words, was not separate from this testimony by the Scriptures to "lock men up."

    On the contrary, Paul was declaring that the Law was the final word on this Scriptural condemnation upon mankind when they existed without Christ's atonement. It was a statement that apart from Christ's atonement all of mankind would be lost.
     
  6. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    <<<That sounds silly! Believing that someone did something doesn't make the thing happen! Believing is accepting that something did happen if indeed it did happen.>>>

    So, how and why did you believe that God created the heavens and the earth?

    I was showing by that, that faith, for it to be genuine, that it does not necessarily follow that it must produce work. To believe that God created the heavens and the earth is faith and such faith does not need to produce work to be genuine. But it seems I am not getting that point across by that.

    Here’s that came to mind. Consider the thief on the cross, crucified together with Jesus at Calvary. He believed in Jesus Christ. Was his faith genuine or not? Based on what Jesus told him, I believe his faith was genuine. Was there work involved in his faith? I see none. If none, does it mean his faith was not genuine? Not necessarily so, isn’t it?

    <<<My statement indicates that faith is an act, and as such, is a kind of work.>>>

    So it is clear that you take faith as an act, a work then, a kind of work. We just then have to agree to disagree. For you, faith is work, and on the other hand, I take faith as not work and different from work. For me, faith is of the spirit, or spiritual. It is similar to love and hope, in nature, that is, of the spirit or spiritual. And they aren’t works.

    If faith is work and faith comes from and is given by God, what becomes of faith? Whose work is it? If one believes, whose work is it?

    Tong
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    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
  7. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry, but I will stick with my take of faith, that it is not work, but has the power to do works I call works of faith.

    I disagree. Atonement is not justification nor for the purpose of justification. It is a covering for wrong doing that intends to appease an offended God from not having His wrath come upon the offender.

    Well,....

    I am not arguing at all that faith must not include works. Rather that salvation is through faith, not through works, and that faith is not work and work is not faith.

    If you insist, but I respectfully disagree for the reasons I’ve been saying.

    Of course you will say that. But if my view is the same as yours, perhaps you’ll say that they fit and is systematic.

    We’ve said our arguments and we don’t arrive at an agreement. So, we just then have to agree to disagree at this point and let the Holy Spirit work in us on this matter.

    Tong
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  8. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    That's not very different from what I'm saying. Since faith involves obedience and deeds, it is, in a sense, a "work." It just is not a work in the sense that Paul is using the word, as a means of justification. Due to our record of sin, our works cannot obtain eternal life apart from the atonement of Christ.

    What you're describing is a form of "justification," which you deny is part of atonement.

    Amen!
     
  9. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    That's another subject. I don't want to confuse the issue. Faith is the ability to transcend current limitations. Abraham used faith to believe in God for things he didn't deserve. God considered that just because it is the very basis by which we obtain forgiveness.

    John 6.29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

    You say that "work" is not "faith." But in this quote, Jesus says that "work" is, in fact, "faith!" Genuine faith produces deeds. I showed you that James claims this. You just refuse to believe it!

    James 2.14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

    Genuine faith, therefore, contains, of necessity, good deeds, or good works. But you would contradict James?

    Man works with the pardon that God gives. We work by having access to God's Spirit and righteousness. We put His righteousness into use. We take the works of Christ, by which he atoned for our sins, and utilize his righteousness to prove that our faith is genuine by doing good deeds.

    If you want to continue opposing my views, you need to answer James 2.14 and John 6.29. You have not and cannot do so. And that's because you reject the idea that Paul uses shortcuts to express larger concepts in fewer words. His view of "works" and "faith" have a context. And you try to apply a narrow definition of these words in all contexts. That doesn't work, nor is it even reasonable.

    But yes, we can agree to disagree. Thanks for the time.
     
  10. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    <<<I have no reason to believe God is less concerned with our "works of faith" than men, who witness them? >>>

    Not that God is less concerned, but because God is all knowing. He knows our heart, while man does not.

    <<<We are in disagreement because we utilize different definitions of the word "works.">>>

    Perhaps. Should we not here give our take on what work is?

    <<<No, that's the opposite of what Jesus said............ That also was what Jesus was saying. >>>

    Now you got me confused.

    <<<He said men can reject him without rejecting the gift of the Holy Spirit.>>>

    Please cite relevant scriptures.

    But what does that make of what scriptures say that the gift of the Holy Spirit will be given to those who believe?

    <<<Is Jesus being rejected from the heart, or only out of duress?>>>

    Why, would you reject him out of duress?

    I did not quite get that.

    Tong
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  11. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    That has been my burden from the start. Paul is using "works" as an abbreviation for "works of the Law," or "autonomous works, separate from the atonement of Christ."

    I'll try to say it using different words. Adam and Eve did not abandon God with eyes wide open. They were deceived. Temptation was the "duress" they were under when they made the decision to act apart from God's word. And because they acted "under duress," God gave mankind a 2nd chance.

    Jesus said in the Scriptures that men would reject him, but not necessarily the Holy Spirit. Before men come to Christ they are under all kinds of illusions about what Christ represented, and Christ granted them time to make mistakes and reject him for the wrong reasons.

    When men, however, finally accept Christ, they do so knowing who he really is, and therefore receive the Holy Spirit. Some men, however, reject not just Jesus but also the Holy Spirit. They receive a true witness of who Christ is, and don't want him. And so, they reject both Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

    When men come to that point and do things like call Jesus demon possessed, they have crossed a line and commit the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Rejecting Jesus after knowing who he really is and what he really represents there is nothing more that Jesus can offer them. They will never get saved.
     
  12. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    In regards to the OP (quoted above):

    It should be clear in Matthew 5:17-20 and in Colossians 3:10 that all 613 laws are binding on the person who is under the law.
     
  13. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    There was Randy, not to Israel but to Abraham. God commanded Abraham to offer Isaac to Him as a burnt offering (Gen. 22:2). So, look at that commandment. What can you say about the matter that it involves the sacrificing of one’s son to pass through the fire as a burnt offering to Him, something the pagans do in worshiping their gods and which God abhors?

    And....what scriptures in Gen.15:6 says clearly “And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.” ~ it is faith and really nothing else. And we have learned what faith he have, for his works have shown it. Not only that, God even put him to the test and passed the test. Not concerning his work, but his faith.

    Well, if you see no appreciable difference between atonement and forgiveness of sin....

    Tong
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  14. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    Where they prevented from seeking in their animal sacrifices final atonement? Where they led to Christ?

    Yes, Israel, the law being a shadow, could not see clearly what it foreshadows. So that, God did not fail to send them word about Him. Moses knew of the Messiah and preached Him to Israel. God sent His word about the Messiah to them. They knew of a promised Messiah who will be their Savior. Why is that? Where would that be coming from? But why they knew differently of the Messiah is another matter.

    Firstly, the lock up was not under the condemnation of sin, but under sin, that is, under the control of sin. For sin does not condemn but brings one unto judgment and condemnation. It is God who condemns the sinner through His word, to which Paul refers to when he refers to Scriptures. Now before even the law, that is, the law of Moses, was given, all mankind were locked up under sin ~ under the control of sin. Wickedness was all over the earth, so wicked even that God destroyed them all saved Noah and his family of 7 at that time. It was no different after that, for according to God, every intents of the thoughts of the heart of man was continually evil, even from childhood. Then came the time of Moses, and in line with the covenant He made with Abraham, God now, from among the peoples of the earth, have chosen the children of Israel, to make them His people, a holy nation and a kingdom of priests. So that He made a covenant with them to which He added a codified body of laws, the Law of Moses, to keep them under guard, because of transgressions, and bring them to the Messiah, that they might be justified by faith, and be freed from their being locked up under sin ~ under the control of sin. So, it could not be that God, by the law, locked them up again, as they were already locked up before He had made a covenant with them.

    As I have pointed out, the lock up is not under the condemnation of sin but under the control of sin. I have explained that in the segment above.

    Tong
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    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  15. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    Again, for me, faith is not work, as love and hope are. It is spirit, as love and hope are.

    I am sorry, because for me, it’s not. Even in the Law, when the priest makes atonement for the people, the people does not get to be justified for their sin, but that the wrath of God does not come upon them, as a consequence of their sin.

    Tong
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  16. BarnyFife

    BarnyFife Well-Known Member

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    Well, I hate to break it to you, my friend, but it is not at all clear to about 20,000,000 (and growing more rapidly than any denomination) people.

    Also, the number "613" is over-used and fairly meaningless.

    613 commandments - Wikipedia - Dissent and difficulties
     
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Even if 613 is not the most accurate number, it is traditionally the number that has been shared as being the number of commandments that we are to obey in the Old Testament over and above the ten that were written by the finger of the Lord in stone.

    If it is not the literal number it can be related as a representative number that coincides with the scripture that is most often used to relate the truth that we cannot keep the letter of all 613 commandments in the law (Galatians 6:13).
     
  18. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Love is spirit, you say? How so? A spirit is an entity, such as "God's spirit" or "our spirit," or "angelic spirits." But faith is an attitude--not a spirit.

    I don't see "love" and "hope" as spirits, either, unless you view "love" as God, who is a spirit. All these things consist of our willingness to participate in the virtues of God. They are willful compliance, on our part, with God's word as to how we should live in His image.

    Love participates in the benevolence of God. Hope participates in working together with the invisible God, anticipating producing things in the future together with Him. Faith is the choice to accept that we can do more through God, who is greater than who we are alone.

    It seems you constantly want to turn truth into a dichotomy between matter and spirit, which sounds an awful lot like Gnosticism or dualistic religion. That's a bad direction to go in. The material world is not evil. God made it good.

    I beg to differ with you. The whole purpose of atonement under the Law was to make just the sinner, who otherwise would be viewed as unjust. That's what "justify" means, to make a person appear as just.
     
  19. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's what I said. The Law showed Israel a poor substitute for Christ so that they would only partly rely on the Law and ultimately rely on Christ. They looked as in a mirror, seeing darkly that they continually needed more and more atoning sacrifices, until Messiah came.

    Yes, we don't agree on this. I believe the Law confirmed what you say the Scriptures had been doing previously, namely "locking people up." But you're wrong, as I see it. They were locked up under the "condemnation" of sin, and not under the "control" of sin. To state that men were controlled by sin, and could only be wicked is disproven by the presence of saints before the Law.

    Yes, I think this is where you mess up. People were not out of control and hopeless in sin before the Law. The Law confirmed the previous curse of God upon men, indicating they were *condemned to death" as long as they had the Sin Nature. That curse was lifted after Christ rose from the dead, because even though Christians continue to die, they can now rise from the dead and defeat the curse.

    The whole deal in having the Spirit of Christ in the NT is the fact the curse of the Law has been lifted. Since we are no longer under the condemnation of sin, we no longer have to offer animal sacrifices as a temporary peace offering. We are free from the requirement to purify ourselves on a temporary basis, and no longer live without final atonement.
     
  20. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

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    God showed Isaac he sometimes requires sacrifice in our lives because of our Sin Nature. Inasmuch as God did not follow through and require Isaac's death it showed God was *not* like the pagans.

    When we do lose someone we love it is due to the tragedy of our living in a sinful world--not because God is like the pagan gods who are blood thirsty and require pacification. The only kind of "pacification" God requires is submission to His will, and not any kind of desire on the part of God to return evil for evil.

    That is, God doesn't try to balance accounts. We can never pay for our sins. We must simply submit to His forgiveness. That being said, we still have to submit to His will to have us live out our lives in a sinful world with unavoidable problems.

    No, I see no appreciable difference between atonement for sin and the forgiveness of sin. They mean the same thing, except that atonement is the means by which God forgave our sin for all time.

    I've already given you my take on "faith for righteousness." Jesus said faith is a work, and we know that faith, then, as a work justifies.

    It just is not the kind of work that earns eternal life. Paul spoke against the kind of work that thought it could earn eternal life, which the Jews did under the Law when they rejected Christ.

    In that sense, faith is not "works." "Works" is an abbreviation for works that attempt, without Christ, to obtain eternal life by merit.

    True faith makes use of Christ's grace to do works of faith. As such, this is a different kind of "work" and does justify for eternal life, because it relies on Christ's atonement for the necessary pardon to have our works accepted. This kind of "work" makes use of Christ's virtues to please him and to have our works follow us into eternity.
     
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