Confession

[Philip James]

i have no desire to debate Catholic doctrine across this fence wadr, but
"whosoever will, may come."
"...Who desires that all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth"
etc.

Indeed, and all are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb...
But,
'no one can come to me unless the Father draw him'

Peace!

 

[bbyrd009]

no one can come to me unless the Father draw him

65He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father."

why?

see, a whole doctrine is erroneously built around one v that has not even been resolved correctly imo.
What is really being stated is
"you guys are all as lost as two boys kissing, regardless of whoever Ordained you or assured you that you were saved."

 

[GodsGrace]

Catholics believe that God chooses us, we do not choose him

You sound very calvinistic.
Very Augustinian.

Could you expound a bit?
I don't know enough about the Catholic idea of predestination because I only found out about it a few years ago and, frankly, it's nice to be ignorant about it.

But now that you bring it up...

 

[GodsGrace]

Indeed, and all are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb...
But,
'no one can come to me unless the Father draw him'

Peace!

That sounds conflicting...just as calvinists sound conflicting.

The N.T. also says:
"No one can come to the Father except through Me".
John 14:6

So which is it?

 

[bbyrd009]

That sounds conflicting

imo it is conflicting, on purpose, to get ones attn.

43“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus replied.
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Jesus is telling them that they cannot even hear Him bc they have not been drawn to Him, a polite way of saying "you refuse to be drawn." Now granted that was right after the "eat my body, drink my blood" thing, wherein no body parts were offered, and no blood was drank, but these all become central to the point; "hear Me symbolically or you are not hearing Me at all"

 

[Nancy]

Catholics believe that God chooses us, we do not choose him

As well as Calvinists.

 

[Philip James]

65He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father."

why?

see, a whole doctrine is erroneously built around one v that has not even been resolved correctly imo.
What is really being stated is
"you guys are all as lost as two boys kissing, regardless of whoever Ordained you or assured you that you were saved."

'this is a hard teaching who can accept it'

And many of His disciples left....

Why indeed...

 

[Philip James]

That sounds conflicting...just as calvinists sound conflicting.

The N.T. also says:
"No one can come to the Father except through Me".
John 14:6

So which is it?

Both!
The Father enables us to belive in Jesus, and it is through with and in Jesus, that we are able to respond to the Father.

Peace!
Edit to add:

Therefore, brothers, since through the blood of Jesus we have confidence of entrance into the sanctuary

by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh,

 

[aspen]

i'm passing curious how you might respond to the Quotes, or bam provide some for the Catholic pov

Umm...i think you are talking about the quotes in your post?

"whosoever will, may come."
"...Who desires that all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth"
etc.

It is dofficult to comment without context.

I do believe that God desires all to be saved - baptism is part of salvation, but not all of it - the baby being baptized is still responsible for responding to his baptism by engaging in a relatinship with God.

And yes, God does desire all to be saved, but we have to reach out and recognize it. I remember, as a kid, sitting in band class and pretending to play the trumpet by tapping my foot and pressing the keys....i figured if I kept pretending, i would magically know how to play it. People tap their foot in every context - including spirituality

 

[GodsGrace]

Both!
The Father enables us to belive in Jesus, and it is through with and in Jesus, that we are able to respond to the Father.

Peace!
Edit to add:

Therefore, brothers, since through the blood of Jesus we have confidence of entrance into the sanctuary

by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh,

This sounds calvinistic.
I have a big problem with the such.

 

[GodsGrace]

imo it is conflicting, on purpose, to get ones attn.

43“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus replied.
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Jesus is telling them that they cannot even hear Him bc they have not been drawn to Him, a polite way of saying "you refuse to be drawn." Now granted that was right after the "eat my body, drink my blood" thing, wherein no body parts were offered, and no blood was drank, but these all become central to the point; "hear Me symbolically or you are not hearing Me at all"

Interesting take.
I was worried there for a second.
I agree. All are drawn. Some refuse,,,or refuse to be drawn. OK.

 

[Philip James]

This sounds calvinistic.
I have a big problem with the such.

How does that sound like Calvinism (im not familliar with their theology)

 

[GodsGrace]

How does that sound like Calvinism (im not familliar with their theology)

You said the Father enables us to believe in Jesus.
Calvinists believe God picks who will be saved and makes them believe.
You should familiarize yourself with the theology of John Calvin, circa 1540.

 

[Philip James]

Calvinists believe God picks who will be saved and makes them believe.

Well , i dont think God 'makes' anyone do anything..

This is my opinion: that all of us have freewill... The freedom to choose life or death.
'this day I set before you life and death, choose life that you should live'

That God knows ahead of time, which we shall choose does not negate the fact that it is our choice..

That God then enables and aides those who would choose life, surprises me not at all...

Peace!

 

[GodsGrace]

Well , i dont think God 'makes' anyone do anything..

This is my opinion: that all of us have freewill... The freedom to choose life or death.
'this day I set before you life and death, choose life that you should live'

That God knows ahead of time, which we shall choose does not negate the fact that it is our choice..

That God then enables and aides those who would choose life, surprises me not at all...

Peace!

I agree.

 

[bbyrd009]

How does that sound like Calvinism (im not familliar with their theology)

very deterministic iow
i think

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

One of my favorite parts of belonging to the catholic Church is the practice of reconcilliation. Being able to confess the sins that have come between myself and God and myself and the Body of Christ is so effective because I am actually getting to tell a priest and hear him communicate God’s absolution. You guys are missing out!

I know some Protestants have an accountability partner - i used to, but it is just not the same thing. No judgment, no lectures, no chance of gossiping......just absolution and a chance to practice your reconnection through prayer or a good work.

Do you ever confess your sins to Jesus Christ at that throne of grace? Seems like you are missing out on the blessing in having that reconciled relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

So why exchange that blessing for anything less?

 

[aspen]

Do you ever confess your sins to Jesus Christ at that throne of grace? Seems like you are missing out on the blessing in having that reconciled relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

So why exchange that blessing for anything less?

I confess my sins to God before I go to confession

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you ever confess your sins to Jesus Christ at that throne of grace? Seems like you are missing out on the blessing in having that reconciled relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

So why exchange that blessing for anything less?

Is anybody criticizing you for how you confess your sins?
So why do you criticize others??

 

[GodsGrace]

very deterministic iow
i think

Totally deterministic.
And it goes even beyond that.