Contending with the devil

[Matthias]

“But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil and arguing about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, ‘May the Lord rebuke you!’”

(Jude 9, WEB)

 

[Stumpmaster]

“But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil and arguing about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, ‘May the Lord rebuke you!’”

(Jude 7, WEB)

Not Jude 7(see below) The context is Spiritual Authority :

(Jud 1:8) Yet in the same way, these also in their dreaming defile the flesh, despise authority, and slander celestial beings.
(Jud 1:9) But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil and arguing about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, “May the Lord rebuke you!”
(Jud 1:10) But these speak evil of whatever things they don’t know. They are destroyed in these things that they understand naturally, like the creatures without reason.

 

[Matthias]

Not Jude 7(see below) The context is Spiritual Authority :

(Jud 1:8) Yet in the same way, these also in their dreaming defile the flesh, despise authority, and slander celestial beings.
(Jud 1:9) But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil and arguing about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, “May the Lord rebuke you!”
(Jud 1:10) But these speak evil of whatever things they don’t know. They are destroyed in these things that they understand naturally, like the creatures without reason.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I’ve edited the citation in the OP.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I’ve edited the citation in the OP.

Did you want to discuss Spiritual Authority and its use and abuse?

 

[Matthias]

Did you want to discuss Spiritual Authority and its use and abuse?

We can, but my intention was to discuss Jude alluding to an incident in the non-canonical Assumption of Moses and its relationship to Deuteronomy 34.

This thread is a spinoff from threads where a Christadelphian is denying that the devil is a fallen angel.

 

[Stumpmaster]

We can, but my intention was to discuss Jude alluding to an incident in the non-canonical Assumption of Moses and its relationship to Deuteronomy 34.

This thread is a spinoff from threads where a Christadelphian is denying that the devil is a fallen angel.

Well the context of Jude clears that up.

In Jude 8, the phrase translated in the King James Version as "blaspheme dignities" comes from the Greek:

δόξας δὲ βλασφημοῦσιν
dóxas dè blasphēmoûsin

Here's a breakdown of the Greek terms:

Greek Word Analysis​

Greek Term	Transliteration	Meaning
δόξας	dóxas	Glories, glorious ones, dignities
βλασφημοῦσιν	blasphēmoûsin	They blaspheme, speak evil, revile

• δόξας (plural of δόξα) typically means "glory" or "splendor," but in this context, it likely refers to celestial beings or angelic majesties—possibly high-ranking spiritual entities.
• βλασφημοῦσιν is the verb "to blaspheme" or "speak irreverently." It connotes slander or disrespect, especially toward sacred or exalted figures.

Contextual Insight​

The full verse in Greek reads:

Ὁμοίως μέντοι καὶ οὗτοι ἐνυπνιαζόμενοι σάρκα μὲν μιαίνουσιν, κυριότητα δὲ ἀθετοῦσιν, δόξας δὲ βλασφημοῦσιν.
Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme glorious ones.

This verse parallels 2 Peter 2:10, which also speaks of those who "despise dominion and speak evil of dignities." Scholars often interpret these "glorious ones" as angelic beings, possibly even fallen angels or divine messengers, depending on the theological lens.

 

[Matthias]

Well the context of Jude clears that up.

In Jude 8, the phrase translated in the King James Version as "blaspheme dignities" comes from the Greek:




Here's a breakdown of the Greek terms:

Greek Word Analysis​

Greek Term	Transliteration	Meaning
δόξας	dóxas	Glories, glorious ones, dignities
βλασφημοῦσιν	blasphēmoûsin	They blaspheme, speak evil, revile

• δόξας (plural of δόξα) typically means "glory" or "splendor," but in this context, it likely refers to celestial beings or angelic majesties—possibly high-ranking spiritual entities.
• βλασφημοῦσιν is the verb "to blaspheme" or "speak irreverently." It connotes slander or disrespect, especially toward sacred or exalted figures.

Contextual Insight​

The full verse in Greek reads:




This verse parallels 2 Peter 2:10, which also speaks of those who "despise dominion and speak evil of dignities." Scholars often interpret these "glorious ones" as angelic beings, possibly even fallen angels or divine messengers, depending on the theological lens.

That persuades me. It won’t persuade a Christadelphian. Nothing will.

 

[Stumpmaster]

That persuades me. It won’t persuade a Christadelphian. Nothing will.

The Lord rebuke them

 

[Wick Stick]

This thread is a spinoff from threads where a Christadelphian is denying that the devil is a fallen angel.

I assume you cited this?

Luke 10:18 And [Jesus] said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

 

[Matthias]

I assume you cited this?

Luke 10:18 And [Jesus] said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Thread 'Christadelphians, the Devil and Satan'
Christadelphians, the Devil and Satan

This is a link to the main one.

 

[Hiddenthings]

“But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil and arguing about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, ‘May the Lord rebuke you!’”

(Jude 9, WEB)

First question.

It is commonly taught that the devil is focused on souls or humans, but in this case, the devil is concerned with the body of Moses. Why would the devil want control over a dead body?

There will be many, so buckle up and grab the wheel tight!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Not Jude 7(see below) The context is Spiritual Authority :

(Jud 1:8) Yet in the same way, these also in their dreaming defile the flesh, despise authority, and slander celestial beings.
(Jud 1:9) But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil and arguing about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, “May the Lord rebuke you!”
(Jud 1:10) But these speak evil of whatever things they don’t know. They are destroyed in these things that they understand naturally, like the creatures without reason.

Thanks, Stumpmaster... this observation will definitely come to light as we delve deeper into the true meaning of this section of Scripture.

Matthias will likely lean on the idea of a fallen angel, which isn’t explicitly mentioned, nor is the false accuser clearly defined, this is a huge issue for him.

More to come!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Thread 'Christadelphians, the Devil and Satan'
Christadelphians, the Devil and Satan

This is a link to the main one.

So far, Dak and Aunty Jane have stepped back, unable to provide evidence for a fallen angel or for divine angels that are capable of sinning.

I’ll be very curious to see if they rejoin the discussion.

 

[Hiddenthings]

If this thread is going to fully examine this text, we’ll need to leave no stone unturned and address several misconceptions right from the start.

1. Some have suggested that the devil sought to lead Israel into idolatry by encouraging the veneration of Moses' body.

Issue: No Scriptural evidence - The Torah is completely silent on fallen angel theology.

2. Some also argue that Jude may be alluding to the apocryphal work The Assumption of Moses,

Issue: there is no definitive proof that Jude’s epistle was written after this apocryphal text.

3. Some critics propose that Jude is referencing the Targum of Jonathan,

Issue: this work makes no mention of the devil or any dispute over the body of Moses.

I’m happy to discuss these in more detail if anyone is interested, as I have access to these works. However, please understand that we won’t find an answer to this passage here.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I assume you cited this?

Luke 10:18 And [Jesus] said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Yes, we’ve addressed Luke’s simile. The real issue here is identifying the adversary Jesus was referring to and understanding how the context points to something very different from a literal angel falling from heaven.

The passage doesn’t explicitly say that Satan was in heaven or that he fell from heaven. Jesus is making a comparison, as indicated by the word "as." The comparison isn't that Satan fell from heaven in the same way lightning does, but rather that the speed of Satan's fall is like lightning falling from heaven.

Christians are like deer in headlights and only see what they want to see.

You can determine the adversary if you are a willing to study the context.

Leave it with you.

 

[Rockerduck]

So far, Dak and Aunty Jane have stepped back, unable to provide evidence for a fallen angel or for divine angels that are capable of sinning.

I’ll be very curious to see if they rejoin the discussion.

It's the Bible that tells us about Grace and the Salvation of Jesus Christ (for by Grace you are saved) and that the Holy Spirit is given to the elect of God. There is no evidence except the fruit of the Holy Spirit that you can see. In the same manner it's the bible that tells you about fallen angels. But you can't see them; where's the evidence except in the invisible spiritual world. Have you seen Jesus or the evidence He existed? Many believe on Jesus without ever seeing Him. The evidence is in the spiritual world, and I've seen angels and demons, they exist.

 

[Hiddenthings]

It's the Bible that tells us about Grace and the Salvation of Jesus Christ (for by Grace you are saved) and that the Holy Spirit is given to the elect of God. There is no evidence except the fruit of the Holy Spirit that you can see. In the same manner it's the bible that tells you about fallen angels.

Three threads have failed to do so Rocker

But you can't see them;

No, the Bible doesn't teach this at all. If you read all the treads you would instantly see the issues they are facing.

where's the evidence except in the invisible spiritual world. Have you seen Jesus or the evidence He existed? Many believe on Jesus without ever seeing Him. The evidence is in the spiritual world, and I've seen angels and demons, they exist.

Even this thread offers no evidence - just a bunch of notions in your mind which have no anchor in Scripture.

 

[Rockerduck]

Three threads have failed to do so Rocker

No, the Bible doesn't teach this at all. If you read all the treads you would instantly see the issues they are facing.

Even this thread offers no evidence - just a bunch of notions in your mind which have no anchor in Scripture.

You lack faith that things exist invisibly is your downfall, and you failed because you don't believe. Don't call out failing because God gives Faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe and do not perish, John 3:16.
For by Grace (of God) you are saved by Faith (in Christ).Eph. 2:8. God will not give you any discernment or wisdom for lack of belief.

 

[dak]

So far, Dak and Aunty Jane have stepped back, unable to provide evidence for a fallen angel or for divine angels that are capable of sinning.

I’ll be very curious to see if they rejoin the discussion.

Lol, so you now want to drag me into this one too?
The statement from Jude 1:9 is a quote from Zechariah 3:2.

Zechariah 3:1-9 KJV
1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, [by mouth of the Angel of the LORD] The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

This is not Yhoshua ben Yhotzadak, the Kohen Gadol of Zec 6:11, but the prototype or archetype for what will be said of him in that later passage, (which also includes the One whose name is the Branch). This one is Yhoshua the Kohen Gadol by the order of Melki-Tzedek, for Mosheh placed his hands upon him and gave him the charge, and the Most High placed the Spirit of Wisdom upon him, (Deut 34:9).

The body of Mosheh is the whole Tanach body of the faithful until the Meshiah came. When Meshiah came the Tanach Body of Mosheh was folded into the Body of Meshiah, (Mat 27:50-53).

The Stone set before Yhoshua ben Nun heard everything in that day and was the Great Stone of witness:

Joshua 24:25-28 KJV
25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.
27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.
28 So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance.

Kohen Gadol after the order of Melki-Tzedek is not decided by tribal identity, and thus, Yhoshua ben Nun was set over the whole Tanach body of Mosheh following his death. The vision of Zechariah 3 concerns this Yhoshua and no doubt Yhudah the brother of Yakob understood this when he quoted from this passage in Jude 1:9, (or Jude 9).

 

[Hiddenthings]

You lack faith that things exist invisibly is your downfall, and you failed because you don't believe. Don't call out failing because God gives Faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe and do not perish, John 3:16.
For by Grace (of God) you are saved by Faith (in Christ).Eph. 2:8. God will not give you any discernment or wisdom for lack of belief.

You know what the OP is right?