Correction on the Trinity.

[justbyfaith]

In my desire to preach Oneness Pentecoatalism I somehow glossed over a certain scripture when I read it, not even seeing that it refutes Oneness Pentecostalism as I saw it.

1Jo 1:2, (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

1Jo 1:2 (NLT), This one who is life itself was revealed to us, and we have seen him. And now we testify and proclaim to you that he is the one who is eternal life. He was with the Father, and then he was revealed to us.

I have purchased for myself an NLT and in reading it my eyes have been opened to the reality that the Father did not become the Son; but that rather the Son was with the Father before He descended to become a Man.

The NLT clarified the doctrine for me.

I consider that the translators of the NLT were believers and that their understanding of the Greek and Hebrew is accurate; and also that if they were purposefully teaching anything by the way that they presented the translation, that we ought to heed the teaching presented. For it is written,

Jhn 15:20, Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, first, you're half way correct, but still fully in error. you said,

the Father did not become the Son; but that rather the Son was with the Father before He descended to become a Man.

if the Son was with the Farther, is not he the same person holding both titles?. listen, John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." now, if you believe that the son is a separate person from the Father, then you have two Gods, according to the "with", as a separate God, or you fail if you believe the word is a "god". but if not, then it's the same person, per John 1:1c.
PICJAG.

 

[justbyfaith]

GINOLJC, first, you're half way correct, but still fully in error. you said,

if the Son was with the Farther, is not he the same person holding both titles?. listen, John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." now, if you believe that the son is a separate person from the Father, then you have two Gods, according to the "with", as a separate God, or you fail if you believe the word is a "god". but if not, then it's the same person, per John 1:1c.
PICJAG.

There is a mystery of faith involved here; for there are ten dimensions to reality and the Lord might even exist above the ten.

Therefore the reality may not be comprehensible with our finite minds of human thinking.

Certainly 1 + 1 +1 = 3.

But 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

Isa 55:8, For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9, For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

If the Lord's thoughts and ways are above our own, then it is very possible (and even probable) that His nature and character transcends our human understanding also.

 

[101G]

There is a mystery of faith involved here

ERROR, Faith has no mystery. the bible is clear as to who is in the Godhead. ...... read Romans Chapter ..... verses .....
PICJAG.

 

[brakelite]

GINOLJC, first, you're half way correct, but still fully in error. you said,

if the Son was with the Farther, is not he the same person holding both titles?. listen, John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." now, if you believe that the son is a separate person from the Father, then you have two Gods, according to the "with", as a separate God, or you fail if you believe the word is a "god". but if not, then it's the same person, per John 1:1c.
PICJAG.

C'mon mate, give the guy a break. Give him some credit for pursuing a true understanding of the Godhead and admitting that he has been in error. I think some charity goes a long way in breaking down barriers to understanding. As to what the truth is regarding the Godhead, to my mind anyone who is willing to stand up and say, this is the truth regarding the Godhead, thus everyone else is wrong and in error, needs his own head examined. The Bible does NOT reveal everything there is to know about God...His nature...and how the members of the Godhead relate to one another and how they consist together. The mystery of Godliness is just that. A mystery, and it will take all eternity just to scratch the surface of the intricacies and depths of who our Creator is. We can know Him, sure, but only in so much as He has revealed Himself. That revelation is in the Son. We need go no further in postulating theories and human devising to create man-made formulas that anathematize any who don't wholly accept them. The Son came to reveal the Father. The Father and the Son sent their Spirit in helping us to understand what the Father and Son taught through the Spirit in scripture. Humans debating the nature of the Godhead is like high school students debating the nature of astrophysics. They can go so far, then only throw their hands up in surrender and say, "what canst thou know, and who can tell".

 

[justbyfaith]

ERROR, Faith has no mystery. the bible is clear as to who is in the Godhead. ...... read Romans Chapter ..... verses .....
PICJAG.

NO ERROR at all...

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Eph 3:9, And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.

The Bible does NOT reveal everything there is to know about God...His nature

the bible do, Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."
Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
see, there is no excuse, it's in the bible. ok, so where is it. all throught, but we'll give you a first stop,
Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"
Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

this is a GREAT place to Start, and Genesis 1:26 & 27, both scriptures reveals the Godhead from what was made, as the apostle stated.

The Father and the Son sent their Spirit in helping us to understand what the Father and Son taught through the Spirit in scripture.

say what? understand the titles Father and Son are of the Holy Spirit. yes, I agree we need some teaching to understand the Godhead fully.

Humans debating the nature of the Godhead is like high school students debating the nature of astrophysics. They can go so far, then only throw their hands up in surrender and say, "what canst thou know, and who can tell".

that's true to a point, but why debate? we have the Holy one inside us who will teach us in ........ "ALL" truth. may I recommend his to teach us. because we have not because we ask not, I asked, and was answered.

but as said, we are to edify, just as the scripture, but also the scripture, also states, 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
2 Timothy 3:17 "That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
I posted, "you're half way correct, but still fully in error". did I say he was "wrong?" no, I asked a correcting question, "if the Son was with the Farther, is not he the same person holding both titles?", and the scripture are good for "correction", right. and I did it in a question with the answer.
PICJAG.

 

[101G]

NO ERROR at all...

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Eph 3:9, And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

agreed,because the apostle tells us, 1 Corinthians 13:2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."
so any mysteries is out the door, they are revealed. for we have a junction with the Holy One.

PICJAG.

 

[justbyfaith]

And, it is saying, that if you understand the mystery of the Trinity, but have not love, you are nothing; while if you don't understand that mystery, but do have love, you are known by the Lord.

Also, the fact that all scripture is inspired by God means that the following is also inspired and profitable for doctrine:

1Jo 1:2 (NLT), This one who is life itself was revealed to us, and we have seen him. And now we testify and proclaim to you that he is the one who is eternal life. He was with the Father, and then he was revealed to us.

 

[Grailhunter]

And, it is saying, that if you understand the mystery of the Trinity, but have not love, you are nothing; while if you don't understand that mystery, but do have love, you are known by the Lord.

Also, the fact that all scripture is inspired by God means that the following is also inspired and profitable for doctrine:

1Jo 1:2 (NLT), This one who is life itself was revealed to us, and we have seen him. And now we testify and proclaim to you that he is the one who is eternal life. He was with the Father, and then he was revealed to us.

Christian Theology

Trinity vs Tritheism

Posts 1762-1764

 

[Zachary]

In my desire to preach Oneness Pentecostalism I somehow glossed over a certain scripture when I read it, not even seeing that it refutes Oneness Pentecostalism as I saw it.
1 John 1:2,3

Why don't you purchase a Bible that has John 1 in it.
The Word (not Jesus) was with the Father in the very beginning.
And the Word also was God.
And the Word later became flesh (Jesus).

This is basic Christianity!

Before the BABE was born, there was NO such Person as "Jesus".

I know that Oneness Pentecostals do NOT believe John 1.
Why aren't you on their forum?
IMO, they are NOT saved.
One must believe in the Trinity.
One must believe that Jesus was/is God.
.

 

[justbyfaith]

Why don't you purchase a Bible that has John 1 in it.
The Word (not Jesus) was with the Father in the very beginning.
And the Word also was God.
And the Word later became flesh (Jesus).

This is basic Christianity!

Before the BABE was born, there was NO such Person as "Jesus".

I know that Oneness Pentecostals do NOT believe John 1.
Why aren't you on their forum?
IMO, they are NOT saved.
One must believe in the Trinity.
One must believe that Jesus was/is God.
.

I once considered that John 1:1 was explained by Ephesians 4:10.

In that, as the theology goes, the Word was the Father, who descended to become the Son, who then ascended to become the Holy Spirit (to make a long story short): so that the same Person exists beside Himself in eternity. Thus the Word (the preincarnate Father/Jesus) existed with the Father (the after-incarnate Father, the Holy Ghost).

The only problem with this is that in the NLT, 1 John 1:2 tells us that the Son was with the Father before He descended to become Jesus Christ. He was with the Father, and then He was revealed to us.

Therefore, 1 John 1:2 declares that Jesus was eternally begotten; whereas the Oneness Pentecostalism that I espoused relied upon Jesus being begotten in the incarnation and then ascending into eternity so that He exists as an eternal being (God) beside and next to the Father.

Sometimes we can create all kinds of hoops that we jump through in order to preserve the Oneness of the Lord in our thinking. We start doing mental gymnastics in order to keep hold of the concept of the shema in the Old Testament.

But I will take refuge in the fact that I do not need to understand all mysteries. If I understand all mysteries, and have not love, I am nothing. But if all I understand is that Jesus died for me, and this produces in me the love of the Lord, then I am a somebody in the kingdom even with my lack of understanding the mysteries.

So I don't need to struggle with these doctrines any longer. I will rest in the fact that Jesus knows me because I love Him (1 Corinthians 8:1-3).

I will continue to believe that the Deity of Christ as a doctrine is essential for salvation (John 8:24).

 

[Zachary]

1 John 1:2 declares that Jesus was eternally begotten; whereas the Oneness Pentecostalism that I espoused relied upon Jesus being begotten in the incarnation and then ascending into eternity so that He exists as an eternal being (God) beside and next to the Father.

I spent 2 weeks on their forum trying to get them to believe John 1, etc.
The one thing they really had no answer for were the 20+ NT verses
where all Three of the Trinity are mentioned in each verse!

They certainly are a messed up bunch.
But, it's the same olde story ...
people choosing to believe the doctrines of men over obvious Scripture!
There is enough of that going around to keep everyone happy!
.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, TO ALL

Sometimes we can create all kinds of hoops that we jump through in order to preserve the Oneness of the Lord in our thinking. We start doing mental gymnastics in order to keep hold of the concept of the shema in the Old Testament.

why jump through hoops, listen, John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."
John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."
John 14:22 "Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?"
John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."
HOLD IT, STOP the press. just think for a min. is the Father in US? yes or no, if the Father sent the H.S. ....... John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." what is he (the Father) doing in US if he's the one who "sent" the H.S? and if the Lord (the Son) sent the H.S ....... John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:" what is he doing in US if he sent the H.S.?
but clearly our Lord Jesus said, (who cannot lie), "and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." can the Lord Jesus lie? no he said "WE" meaning the Father and the Son dwelling in us? now my question to you and all, "HOW MANY SPIRIT, OR SPIRIT(S) ARE DWELLING IN US?", that's right only ONE. so he who is called "Father" and he who is called "son" is the same self "Spirit". just aske yourself, who sent whom. for in John 15:26 the Lord Jesus said, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you". but did not he, (the Lord Jesus the son), said, in John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.". can JESUS lie? no. so he CAME, but did not he say, John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send". now you got to be honest with yourself, who sent whom?

lets make is plain for you. Isaiah 48:16 "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me." many have said that this is the Son who was sent, the Lord Jesus. ok, if that's true, then explain this to me. in Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:". who is the "he" that sent his angel to John, well the bible answer it self, for in Revelation 22:6 we get the answer as to who sent the angel. listen, "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.". so the angel clear up the answer as to who sent him, "the Lord God" ..... of the holy prophets, which means the God of the OT as well as the NT, for holy prophets are in both. now, let's see who is the Lord God, for bible answer it self. same book, same chapter now verse 16, Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." BINGO, so the "Lord God" is Jesus whom you call the son. ok, hold that thought, and lets go back to saiah 48:16 "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me." ok, so tell us who was sent?
for if the Lord Jesus, (the son), is the Lord God, ok who was sent?

see, this is why one must say exactly what the bible says. don't add or take away. if one do this the truth will come out plainly.

now, KNOWING that, the question remains who sent whom, (the comforter?). we hope by now that one understand that there is no trinity....... but God is a "diversity" of himself "Shared" in flesh. this is the true oneness of God's plurality .... the G243 allos of himself. for, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another (G243 allos) Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" that's one Comforter.

PICJAG.

 

[justbyfaith]

I happen to believe now that the Father created an eternal mirror and that the Spirit on the other side of that mirror is the Word and the exact representation of the Father...there is a sense in which He even is the Father; being the exact reflection of the Father.

Now the Word became flesh and dwelt among us; He came and died for us.

Then He rose again.

There is a sense therefore in which the risen Jesus is the everlasting Father; in that He is a Person who began as an exact reflection of the Father.

 

[justbyfaith]

It may be that the NLT is inaccurate in its rendering; so I will suspend my judgment until we get there as to my understanding of the Trinity; whether it is going to be Oneness or else basic Trinitarian philosophy.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus was indeed begotten in the incarnation:

Luk 1:35, And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

 

[Philip James]

1 + 1 +1 = 3.

But 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

1/0 = [ (1)+(2)+(3) ]/ 0

 

[justbyfaith]

1/0 = [ (1)+(2)+(3) ]/ 0

Not sure what you are intending to say by that...

 

[The wind]

In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Spirit and Jesus was the Spirit. And Jesus was made flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his image, the image of the only begotten Son of the Spirit, full of mercy and truth.