Creationism in science class rooms

[DaDad]

... we are not able to understand all-knowing-ness. Sorry, DaDad.

Hey, if you don't want to know, then don't ask. However, when I ask, I receive.

So Sorry Aspen.


With Best Regards,
DD



Jeremiah 33
2 “Thus says the Lord who made the earth, the Lord who formed it to establish it—the Lord is his name: 3 Call to me and I will answer you, and will tell you great and hidden things which you have not known.

 

[horsecamp]

lets use our Christian brains for a minute...
instead of just big words we think we know about do to what some fool in a science class said.
God calls unbelievers in him fools. God does not call believers in him fools.
so if two people are science professors who would you rather learn science from
the fool or the
bible believer

dah?

 

[River Jordan]

Answer first, do you believe you come from apes?

We share a common ancestry with other members of the family Hominidae.

Again, if evolution were true, we should be seeing thousands of monkeymen and such in transition. Yet we can't find one.

You mean in the fossil record, or living today?

Answer me this. Can you prove that non-living chemicals can give rise to a living cell?

Nope.

Sorry, but you were not talking about the Great Commission and neither was I. If you're concerned about it, we can talk about it, but it wasnt what was being adddressed. So, again, save your dramatics for another. The Lord Jesus Christ knows who are His and none will be lost.

I was talking about our Great Commission and how the absurd things under young-earth creationism and general science-denialism harm that cause. If what state is true about the Lord already having decided who will be saved, then what is the point of the Great Commission? Those who are going to be saved are going to be saved, no matter what you or I do.

Now that I've answered all your questions, please answer mine: If humans share a common ancestry with other apes, what do you think we should see in the fossil record?

so if two people are science professors who would you rather learn science from
the fool or the
bible believer

You mean like Francis Collins, Christian and head of the human genome project who believes that the genetic data alone unequivocally validates evolutionary theory?

Should we listen to him at all?

 

[Quantrill]

We share a common ancestry with other members of the family Hominidae.


You mean in the fossil record, or living today?


Nope.

I was talking about our Great Commission and how the absurd things under young-earth creationism and general science-denialism harm that cause. If what state is true about the Lord already having decided who will be saved, then what is the point of the Great Commission? Those who are going to be saved are going to be saved, no matter what you or I do.

Now that I've answered all your questions, please answer mine: If humans share a common ancestry with other apes, what do you think we should see in the fossil record?

Do you believe you came from apes?

Fossil record or today? Are you indicating evolution has ceased? If evolution is true, we should see the monkey men in progress. Evolving. Yet we don't see any. We see monkeys and apes. We see humans.

Do you believe non living chemicals can give rise to a living cell?

What does the Great Commission have to do with what I said about God creating the diseases that kill, which is what we were discussing. Nothing. If you or others don't want to believe in God who is the Creator of all things, then don't. But it does not affect the Christian being responsible to go and tell people about Jesus Christ. We do so because we are commanded to do so. All the while recognizing God will be the One who decides who will hear this Gospel and be saved.

I didn't say humans share a common ancestory with monkeys. Why? What do you find in the fossil records?

Quantrill

 

[snr5557]

Fossil record or today? Are you indicating evolution has ceased? If evolution is true, we should see the monkey men in progress. Evolving. Yet we don't see any. We see monkeys and apes. We see humans.

I think I see where the disconnect is. Evolution doesn't think, it does not look to the future and decide which traits would prove beneficial to that particular species. In the field of Biology, we use the term "fit" a little differently from the rest of the world. In Biology, fit means living long enough to reproduce. So technically, if an athletic football player does not reproduce, he is less "fit" than a couch potato who has a child.

So, when an organism has a trait that is more "fit", as in it enables that organism to live long enough to reproduce, that trait or set of traits will continue. So, when we see monkeys, the traits that they have acquired have let them live long enough to reproduce. If there is nothing wrong with that system, as in, it works for that particular environment, you will not see a significant change. However, if their environment were to change dramatically, the possibility of a major genetic change or that species dying out, becomes more likely. If a new trait helps them survive that environment even more efficiently comes up that is great as well. So, those monkeys, and all organisms, are simply trying to live long enough to reproduce because that is a foundation of biology, the study of life. For life to continue, for a species to continue, organisms must reproduce, so that is the primary goal.


What does the Great Commission have to do with what I said about God creating the diseases that kill, which is what we were discussing. Nothing. If you or others don't want to believe in God who is the Creator of all things, then don't. But it does not affect the Christian being responsible to go and tell people about Jesus Christ. We do so because we are commanded to do so. All the while recognizing God will be the One who decides who will hear this Gospel and be saved.

Believing in evolution does not mean that we do not believe that God is the creator of all things, we (and I am assuming for Aspen and River, if you either of you disagree just say so) just think that God created this world that works in a logical way.

 

[Quantrill]

Fossil record or today? Are you indicating evolution has ceased? If evolution is true, we should see the monkey men in progress. Evolving. Yet we don't see any. We see monkeys and apes. We see humans.

I think I see where the disconnect is. Evolution doesn't think, it does not look to the future and decide which traits would prove beneficial to that particular species. In the field of Biology, we use the term "fit" a little differently from the rest of the world. In Biology, fit means living long enough to reproduce. So technically, if an athletic football player does not reproduce, he is less "fit" than a couch potato who has a child.

So, when an organism has a trait that is more "fit", as in it enables that organism to live long enough to reproduce, that trait or set of traits will continue. So, when we see monkeys, the traits that they have acquired have let them live long enough to reproduce. If there is nothing wrong with that system, as in, it works for that particular environment, you will not see a significant change. However, if their environment were to change dramatically, the possibility of a major genetic change or that species dying out, becomes more likely. If a new trait helps them survive that environment even more efficiently comes up that is great as well. So, those monkeys, and all organisms, are simply trying to live long enough to reproduce because that is a foundation of biology, the study of life. For life to continue, for a species to continue, organisms must reproduce, so that is the primary goal.


What does the Great Commission have to do with what I said about God creating the diseases that kill, which is what we were discussing. Nothing. If you or others don't want to believe in God who is the Creator of all things, then don't. But it does not affect the Christian being responsible to go and tell people about Jesus Christ. We do so because we are commanded to do so. All the while recognizing God will be the One who decides who will hear this Gospel and be saved.

Believing in evolution does not mean that we do not believe that God is the creator of all things, we (and I am assuming for Aspen and River, if you either of you disagree just say so) just think that God created this world that works in a logical way.

The 'disconnect' is between man and apes.

Yes, I know that is what you 'believe'. And cannot prove.

Can you prove non-living chemicals give rise to a living cell? Do you believe non-living chemicals give rise to a living cell?

It does mean you do not beieve in God. Because God is the Author of Scripture which testifies against evolution and you.

Quantrill

 

[snr5557]

The 'disconnect' is between man and apes.

Yes, I know that is what you 'believe'. And cannot prove.

Can you prove non-living chemicals give rise to a living cell? Do you believe non-living chemicals give rise to a living cell?

It does mean you do not beieve in God. Because God is the Author of Scripture which testifies against evolution and you.

I think God would make it possible for a non-living thing to give rise to a living thing, but I am only beginning to learn about chemical evolution so I cannot go into much detail about it.

And regardless of what you think, I do believe in God. My faith is so strong that I can understand that God would create the world to be logical, and that evolution is true. The evidence that God has left for us to enjoy and learn about testifies against you.

 

[Quantrill]

I think God would make it possible for a non-living thing to give rise to a living thing, but I am only beginning to learn about chemical evolution so I cannot go into much detail about it.

And regardless of what you think, I do believe in God. My faith is so strong that I can understand that God would create the world to be logical, and that evolution is true. The evidence that God has left for us to enjoy and learn about testifies against you.

But that is your 'faith'. And the 'faith' of science. Which comes back to the question of 'why is the faith of evolution being taught in schools'?

Your faith is in evolution, not God. The creation is a great testimony for God. The faith of evolution is contrary to God.

Quantrill.

 

[snr5557]

But that is your 'faith'. And the 'faith' of science. Which comes back to the question of 'why is the faith of evolution being taught in schools'?

Your faith is in evolution, not God. The creation is a great testimony for God. The faith of evolution is contrary to God.

Quantrill.

Evolution is what science has shown to be the most true. If we were to remove evolution, that is the equivalent of removing the theory of gravity from science classrooms. You would be removing all science from classrooms, and why would you want to do that? If you are against science, you should not be using your computer. You should no longer live in a house that used architecture . You should no longer use any sort of medicine. Because according to what you are saying, that is what you want.

My faith is God, and God is the reason evolution happened. If you are against evolution, you are against what God has done to provide all of these different species. It is you who rejects God's gifts, I just try to embrace all that He has given us because I feel it would be a waste of His amazing talent if I did not.

 

[Quantrill]

Evolution is what science has shown to be the most true. If we were to remove evolution, that is the equivalent of removing the theory of gravity from science classrooms. You would be removing all science from classrooms, and why would you want to do that? If you are against science, you should not be using your computer. You should no longer live in a house that used architecture . You should no longer use any sort of medicine. Because according to what you are saying, that is what you want.

My faith is God, and God is the reason evolution happened. If you are against evolution, you are against what God has done to provide all of these different species. It is you who rejects God's gifts, I just try to embrace all that He has given us because I feel it would be a waste of His amazing talent if I did not.

No, evolution is what science believes and wants to present as true. But they cannot prove it. It is your faith. Therefore if you can teach your faith in schools, then the Christian or others should be able to teach their faiths. Im not arguing against gravity, or medicine. Im arguing about your faith in evolution.

God is not the reason for evolution because the Creation account is clear. And you cannot prove evolution. Thus your faith is in evolution, not God, and you should not be allowed to teach such an atheistic faith.

Quantrill

 

[snr5557]

No, evolution is what science believes and wants to present as true. But they cannot prove it. It is your faith. Therefore if you can teach your faith in schools, then the Christian or others should be able to teach their faiths. Im not arguing against gravity, or medicine. Im arguing about your faith in evolution.

God is not the reason for evolution because the Creation account is clear. And you cannot prove evolution. Thus your faith is in evolution, not God, and you should not be allowed to teach such an atheistic faith.

Quantrill

Science itself is not a person, it cannot have a faith. And you are basically saying that science is a religion and should not be taught in schools. So, again, if you are so against science stop using what it has provided for you. Go off the grid. Get rid of all technology, medicine, and modern conveniences. You are arguing against gravity and medicine. Gravity is, according to your qualifications, a faith of science since gravity is what science has shown to be the most true. Medicine relies on evolution, so if you are against what is necessary to create medicine, then you are against medicine itself.

Don't try to lie and say you are for medicine when you are against what creates it. If you're one of those people who think that people shouldn't use medicine because God wants them to die at that time, then just admit it. We can debate from there, but don't pretend to be for medicine when you're not.

 

[KingJ]

Science itself is not a person, it cannot have a faith. And you are basically saying that science is a religion and should not be taught in schools. So, again, if you are so against science stop using what it has provided for you. Go off the grid. Get rid of all technology, medicine, and modern conveniences. You are arguing against gravity and medicine. Gravity is, according to your qualifications, a faith of science since gravity is what science has shown to be the most true. Medicine relies on evolution, so if you are against what is necessary to create medicine, then you are against medicine itself.

Don't try to lie and say you are for medicine when you are against what creates it. If you're one of those people who think that people shouldn't use medicine because God wants them to die at that time, then just admit it. We can debate from there, but don't pretend to be for medicine when you're not.

Remind me again how science does not point to intelligent design? It is you who are lying.

Is your bum on your forehead and you mixing your words with feces? Or is it miraculously placed out of the way below your back?

 

[snr5557]

Remind me again how science does not point to intelligent design? It is you who are lying.

Is your bum on your forehead and you mixing your words with feces? Or is it miraculously placed out of the way below your back?

I have read about intelligent design, they just say "It's a miracle" when they don't understand something. God is more clever than that.

 

[williemac]

I have read about intelligent design, they just say "It's a miracle" when they don't understand something. God is more clever than that.

By clever, do you mean that He designed things so that He should wait for millions of years until things evolved far enough along to "create" man in His image? Did God evolve?

 

[snr5557]

By clever, do you mean that He designed things so that He should wait for millions of years until things evolved far enough along to "create" man in His image? Did God evolve?

Why not? Do you think that would be too much for Him?

God is the ultimate being, He doesn't need to evolve because He does not need to adapt to the environment...also evolution takes many generations to happen, so for your idea to work He would have to be the offspring of someone else. I have heard about some people believing He had a mother and father, but I am not familiar with that viewpoint, so you'll have to tell me about it.

 

[River Jordan]

Do you believe you came from apes?

As I said, humans share a common ancestry with other apes.

Fossil record or today? Are you indicating evolution has ceased? If evolution is true, we should see the monkey men in progress. Evolving. Yet we don't see any. We see monkeys and apes. We see humans.

That's because the two lineages split ~6 million years ago. Now, if that's true, we should see signs of that in the fossil record, right?

Do you believe non living chemicals can give rise to a living cell?

Yes. It's consistent with the emerging science and with scripture (God letting the earth bring forth life).

What does the Great Commission have to do with what I said about God creating the diseases that kill, which is what we were discussing. Nothing. If you or others don't want to believe in God who is the Creator of all things, then don't. But it does not affect the Christian being responsible to go and tell people about Jesus Christ. We do so because we are commanded to do so. All the while recognizing God will be the One who decides who will hear this Gospel and be saved.

If in the process of sharing the Gospel you tie Christianity directly to the absurdity that is young-earth creationism, you are driving some people away.

I didn't say humans share a common ancestory with monkeys. Why? What do you find in the fossil records?

We find fossil remains of organisms that have a mixture of primitive "ape-like" features and modern "human-like" features, and that as we move forward in geologic time, there is a progression towards more human-like.

Isn't that exactly what we should see if human-ape common ancestry is true?

evolution is what science believes and wants to present as true. But they cannot prove it.

Yes we can. I've already shown you examples of evolution occurring in real time, right before our eyes. Some schools might even let students do experiments where they can see evolution real time. If that's reality, why wouldn't they teach it?

 

[Quantrill]

Science itself is not a person, it cannot have a faith. And you are basically saying that science is a religion and should not be taught in schools. So, again, if you are so against science stop using what it has provided for you. Go off the grid. Get rid of all technology, medicine, and modern conveniences. You are arguing against gravity and medicine. Gravity is, according to your qualifications, a faith of science since gravity is what science has shown to be the most true. Medicine relies on evolution, so if you are against what is necessary to create medicine, then you are against medicine itself.

Don't try to lie and say you are for medicine when you are against what creates it. If you're one of those people who think that people shouldn't use medicine because God wants them to die at that time, then just admit it. We can debate from there, but don't pretend to be for medicine when you're not.

Scientists have faith. They have faith in science. They believe evolution which makes it a faith. I am saying evolution is a faith, because it is not proved. It is whay you and other scientists want to believe. But you teach it as 'fact'.

Im not lying. Im not worried about what Science teaches as medicine or gravity. Unless what they teach runs contrary to the Bible. The theory of evolution is contridictory to God and the Bible. Evolution does not exist.

I didn't say Im against medicine. Im against scientists who profess faith in evolution but call it fact.

So, why is the faith of evloution being allowed in public schools?

Quantrill

Why not? Do you think that would be too much for Him?

God is the ultimate being, He doesn't need to evolve because He does not need to adapt to the environment...also evolution takes many generations to happen, so for your idea to work He would have to be the offspring of someone else. I have heard about some people believing He had a mother and father, but I am not familiar with that viewpoint, so you'll have to tell me about it.

How do you know God doesn't need to evolve? How do you know God does not need to adapt to the environment?

Please answer these questions?

Quantrill

As I said, humans share a common ancestry with other apes.


That's because the two lineages split ~6 million years ago. Now, if that's true, we should see signs of that in the fossil record, right?


Yes. It's consistent with the emerging science and with scripture (God letting the earth bring forth life).


If in the process of sharing the Gospel you tie Christianity directly to the absurdity that is young-earth creationism, you are driving some people away.

We find fossil remains of organisms that have a mixture of primitive "ape-like" features and modern "human-like" features, and that as we move forward in geologic time, there is a progression towards more human-like.

Isn't that exactly what we should see if human-ape common ancestry is true?


Yes we can. I've already shown you examples of evolution occurring in real time, right before our eyes. Some schools might even let students do experiments where they can see evolution real time. If that's reality, why wouldn't they teach it?

Please. You have no proof the lineages were ever one, much less split. And of course it was 6 million years ago. Because who could know? You simply prove that there is no evolution taking place as you are wanting to preach.

That is your faith. You can't prove life comes from chemicals, but you believe it. This is why evolution is a faith and shouldn't be taught in public schools.

If I drive people away because I don't believe in evolution, then they can go away. Big deal. I am told to be a witness. I don't change the story to make it palitable for everyone to come. God knows those who are His and they will come. The others can go their way.

Oh yeah, Science finds what it needs to in fossils. Why? Because it can't find it in the real world. Because they have no proof anywhere they must go back millions of years to claim something they see is something they believe. Its laughable.

If evloution were true, we would continue to see the monkey men. Should see the 'progress' taking place. But we don't. Its got to be in some lab under some microscope which science can use as a stage to present its lies of 'evolution'.

Quantrill

 

[snr5557]

Scientists have faith. They have faith in science. They believe evolution which makes it a faith. I am saying evolution is a faith, because it is not proved. It is whay you and other scientists want to believe. But you teach it as 'fact'.

We teach it as the most correct theory out there. I don't think you understand what we're saying. We did not make this up to make you guys upset, Darwin didn't publish it for years because he feared what would happen after. All science is a theory Quantrill, but we treat the most right answer with the most respect in science because it was shown to be the most true.



Im not lying. Im not worried about what Science teaches as medicine or gravity. Unless what they teach runs contrary to the Bible. The theory of evolution is contridictory to God and the Bible. Evolution does not exist.

Evolution does exist, whether you like it or not. You can't cherry pick science, if you are against evolution you are against medicine. If you do not want people to learn about evolution, then you do not want people to know how to create medicine.


I didn't say Im against medicine. Im against scientists who profess faith in evolution but call it fact.

You are though, whether you say you're not. You want to stop people from making medicine, so you are against medicine.


So, why is the faith of evloution being allowed in public schools?

Because it is needed to gain a better understanding of the world around us, as well as necessary to create new medicine.


Quantrill


How do you know God doesn't need to evolve? How do you know God does not need to adapt to the environment?

Organisms evolve when a random mutation provides a beneficial skill that would lead them to live long enough to reproduce. For God to need to evolve, He would have to be at a disadvantage, or could be at a better advantage than what He is currently at. I believe that He is perfect and can do what He pleases, and I don't think that He is at a disadvantage. I believe that He is all powerful.




Please answer these questions?

Quantrill

This is going nowhere. You don't think evolution is real, so you will never see why it's necessary, and since you will never see why it's necessary you will be against it being taught.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Goatsbeard?

Was it natural selection of random mutations?

 

[Quantrill]

Scientists have faith. They have faith in science. They believe evolution which makes it a faith. I am saying evolution is a faith, because it is not proved. It is whay you and other scientists want to believe. But you teach it as 'fact'.

We teach it as the most correct theory out there. I don't think you understand what we're saying. We did not make this up to make you guys upset, Darwin didn't publish it for years because he feared what would happen after. All science is a theory Quantrill, but we treat the most right answer with the most respect in science because it was shown to be the most true.



Im not lying. Im not worried about what Science teaches as medicine or gravity. Unless what they teach runs contrary to the Bible. The theory of evolution is contridictory to God and the Bible. Evolution does not exist.

Evolution does exist, whether you like it or not. You can't cherry pick science, if you are against evolution you are against medicine. If you do not want people to learn about evolution, then you do not want people to know how to create medicine.


I didn't say Im against medicine. Im against scientists who profess faith in evolution but call it fact.

You are though, whether you say you're not. You want to stop people from making medicine, so you are against medicine.


So, why is the faith of evloution being allowed in public schools?

Because it is needed to gain a better understanding of the world around us, as well as necessary to create new medicine.


Quantrill


How do you know God doesn't need to evolve? How do you know God does not need to adapt to the environment?

Organisms evolve when a random mutation provides a beneficial skill that would lead them to live long enough to reproduce. For God to need to evolve, He would have to be at a disadvantage, or could be at a better advantage than what He is currently at. I believe that He is perfect and can do what He pleases, and I don't think that He is at a disadvantage. I believe that He is all powerful.




Please answer these questions?

Quantrill

This is going nowhere. You don't think evolution is real, so you will never see why it's necessary, and since you will never see why it's necessary you will be against it being taught.

No, evolution is taught as fact. They don't teach it as 'theory', which is part of the problem. Of course if you argue with them long enough, they will concede it is a theory, but unless you do they present it as 'the way it is'.

And, it being 'the most correct theory' only means it is the theory you believe.

No, evloution does not exist. Im all for medicine.

Then if your faith in evolution can be taught in public schools, then my faith in Jesus Christ should be able to be taught in public schools. Don't you agree?

But how do you 'know' God doesn't need to evolve. All you are telling me is what you believe about God. And that is just based on your belief in evolution. How do you know the character and nature of God to know He doesn't need to evolve? What is the basis of your belief?

Im against evolution because it is against God, based on the testimony of the Bible.

Quantrill