Criticism

[aspen]

Jesus was a critic of the established Church of His day and He was killed for it. The arrogant, "right" religious leaders chose security over the living gospel. Therefore, the only message they could preach to the people was fear - which is paradoxically, the final price of security. As long as you stay within the strict, lifeless guidelines you were fine.....yet dead.- open your mouth - challenge authority and you were dealt with. Jesus was a liberal force - He came to shake up the establishment and turn everyone's ideas on their head. Man was not made for the Sabbath - love is greater than right doctrine. He breathed life into a stale corpse of a church.

We need to follow His lead. We are far too comfortable in our "rightness" and we need to be shaken up. I am not talking about changing doctrine or anything like that - I am talking about loving through it - like Christ did. He was so mentally flexible - He made the gospel sing. Without testing our ideas through the lenses of love we are going to sacrifice life for a Pharisee's death. Being right is not love - no matter how you want to dress it up. The Pharisee's were right - dead right.

So instead of running from criticism, I have realized it is essential for a healthy church. Before you get excited, I am not talking about ad hominem attacks - we have had far too much of that here. I am still not sure why it is so threatening to some people to look at change - as if the gospel is so fragile it will shatter......I think this is the real reason Rick Warren and his movement in the church is so hated by some.......far too scary to face the idea that we may be wrong in our exclusiveness.

Anyway, as much as I would like to have a real discussion about this - I am not holding my breath. I just thought I would throw it out there.

 

[Robbie]

I know this isn't facebook but *LIKE* haha

A couple weeks ago the Lord spoke to my heart, "It's better to suffer persecution with me, than to to die without me"

 

[aspen]

I know this isn't facebook but *LIKE* haha

A couple weeks ago the Lord spoke to my heart, "It's better to suffer persecution with me, than to to die without me"

It is so nice to hear your response - will you expand on this? I would love to talk about how to approach this issue in the church, in a positive manner. One of the difficult things about challenging ideas is that many people end up throwing out doctrine completely - this is a huge mistake! I do not think the Bible needs to be challenged at all - only our application - what do you think?

One more thing....

A conservative approach values doctrine over people - if we preach a pristine doctrine, we are actually loving people

A liberal approach values people over doctrine - if we sacrifice the truth of the gospel, we are actually loving people.

I think both lead nowhere - Jesus sliced through both approaches by preaching love. Now, how can we do this?! It is the royal road.....true practice of our sanctification, but what does it look like today?

 

[Robbie]

I personally believe all the answers are found in Jesus alone... I think the modern way of studying the bible has caused a lot of confusion... the way people pull out scriptures and cross reference them and over analyze them... I believe the wise are becoming foolish because they're turning what was meant to be a introduction to a relationship into them figuring out a book... this isn't about studying a religion or a book... it's about getting to know a Person... and through that relationship coming to know God...

I believe we should read Mathew, Mark, Luke and John in total and complete context without dismissing anything but not for the purpose of studying the bible... but to get to know Jesus... they didn't write their accounts of Jesus so we would pick them apart and form religions out of them... they wrote their accounts so we would believe in Him through their word...

So when I read say John, I read everything in one big complete story because that's the way John wrote it... it's what John had to say about Jesus... when I read Mark and Luke or Mathew I see them the same way... and I think that's important because it's in reading it in that way that you get to know the Spirit of who He really is through those guys testaments...

It's kind of like getting to know a person... if you don't know the person you could take something they were quoted like, "You must hate your mother, and Father, and sister" or whatever and think to yourself, "This guy must be evil" but if you really know the Spirit of that person as someone who is 100% for loving people then you read that and you say to yourself, "I know Jesus... He's either misquoted or else we're just misunderstood what He was getting at"

I think people need to get to know Jesus better and quit worrying so much about being an expert in the bible... the Pharisees were experts in the scriptures and Jesus said they didn't have God's Word in them or the Love of God...

I believe getting to really know Jesus is the revelation of who our Father really is... God is Love... and in believing that causes His Living Water to pour out from our hearts...

Hope this blesses...

oh... and as far as the suffering with Him... I've had a lot of religious people attack me for my views and that made me want to quit sharing my views... I realized recently that was a big mistake... it's better for me to be real about who I know Jesus to be and suffer hate from religious people for that than to keep my mouth shut and basically deny Him by not saying what I know is true...

 

[aspen]

I personally believe all the answers are found in Jesus alone... I think the modern way of studying the bible has caused a lot of confusion... the way people pull out scriptures and cross reference them and over analyze them... I believe the wise are becoming foolish because they're turning what was meant to be a introduction to a relationship into them figuring out a book... this isn't about studying a religion or a book... it's about getting to know a Person... and through that relationship coming to know God...

AMEN!

I believe we should read Mathew, Mark, Luke and John in total and complete context without dismissing anything but not for the purpose of studying the bible... but to get to know Jesus... they didn't write their accounts of Jesus so we would pick them apart and form religions out of them... they wrote their accounts so we would believe in Him through their word...

I totally agree. Anything less is proof-texting.

It's kind of like getting to know a person... if you don't know the person you could take something they were quoted like, "You must hate your mother, and Father, and sister" or whatever and think to yourself, "This guy must be evil" but if you really know the Spirit of that person as someone who is 100% for loving people then you read that and you say to yourself, "I know Jesus... He's either misquoted or else we're just misunderstood what He was getting at"

So true......or even worse, translating it literally and out of context and calling it a good thing! I have been is so many discussions on this board with people who believe that God breaks His own rules! And when He does, it is a good thing! The character assassination is just appalling - it is as if, my earthly father beat me and I praised him for it! And then turned around and condemned other people for doing far less. God is the definition of moral and Good - and reading the Bible with these ideas in mind are essential.

I think people need to get to know Jesus better and quit worrying so much about being an expert in the bible... the Pharisees were experts in the scriptures and Jesus said they didn't have God's Word in them or the Love of God...

Yep. And the Pharisees were technically right - Jesus relied on their knowledge to illustrate that they had completely missed the point. It is like the difference between sitting in an office all your life memorizing all the ins and outs of calculus, compared to using it to fly to the moon.

I believe getting to really know Jesus is the revelation of who our Father really is... God is Love... and in believing that causes His Living Water to pour out from our hearts...

You know, this conversation has already been a blessing.....thank you!! I cannot tell you how much I needed to be understood and to just revel in the Spirit with someone who really knows God.

Hope this blesses...

oh... and as far as the suffering with Him... I've had a lot of religious people attack me for my views and that made me want to quit sharing my views... I realized recently that was a big mistake... it's better for me to be real about who I know Jesus to be and suffer hate from religious people for that than to keep my mouth shut and basically deny Him by not saying what I know is true...

I have had similar experiences and I have learned that I need to take breaks - I ended up needing some serious time in prayer after spending too much time in here.

 

[Martin W.]

Hi Aspen


I agree "being right" is overdone and we should lighten up a bit sometimes.

But is there a line we should draw , or should we just let everything slide ?

Here is an example regarding Oprah W. Most of us know who she is. Years ago she always said she was a christian , but in recent years she now says all religions lead to heaven. Were there Christians around her who were to timid to correct her ? Just thinking out loud.

I am very flexible (beleive it or not) but it troubles me deeply to see folks who slide too far by avoiding what is "right."

Not really trying to make a point , just thinking out loud.

 

[aspen]

Hi Aspen


I agree "being right" is overdone and we should lighten up a bit sometimes.

But is there a line we should draw , or should we just let everything slide ?

Here is an example regarding Oprah W. Most of us know who she is. Years ago she always said she was a christian , but in recent years she now says all religions lead to heaven. Were there Christians around her who were to timid to correct her ? Just thinking out loud.

I am very flexible (beleive it or not) but it troubles me deeply to see folks who slide too far by avoiding what is "right."

Not really trying to make a point , just thinking out loud.

Interesting. Yeah, you are right about Oprah adopting universalism. However, plenty of Christians spoke out against her theology as soon as they heard it.
I am just thinking out loud too

Do you think Oprah's false idea nullifies her Christianity?

I understand the concern about a sacrifice of doctrine leading people into error, but I do not know if it nullifies the work Christ is doing in her heart. The reason I bring this up is because it has happened to affective theologians in History like Tertullian and Oriegin.

I will have to think more about it.

 

[Robbie]

Glad our words created positivity Aspen... I love that = )

After rereading what I wrote the one thing I noticed is that I didn't take any responsibility for the part I played in any of my negative interactions with religious people. The part I played was feeling the need for the person to acknowledge that I was right. If my eyes would have been on Jesus I wouldn't have needed anyone else to acknowledge me because Jesus saying it is right would have been all I needed. So it's obvious the need for people to say I was right was coming from my ego and pride which is why I eventually began reacting in ego and pride. While I always began saying things that were good... as soon as I began reacting in ego it's obvious that my voice changed from the Word of God to the Ego of Rob... haha

So what I'm personally working on is just trusting the truth... putting it out there and letting it do what it does... and most importantly not needing for anyone to say that I'm right... to simply believe that Jesus is right and rejoicing in that... this to me is another bit of bondage the Lord's TRuth is setting me free from.

Blessings and Unity

Martin,

I try to never talk about Oprah, or Obama, or anyone else that I only know about through media...

What they say when on TV might not even be who they really are... or what they really believe...

Remember even Peter denied the Lord while he warmed His hands around the enemies fire...

I would hate to judge someone wrongly especially after Jesus specifically said, "Don't Judge"

As far as someone who believes Jesus isn't the only way to God... if christianity was doing what Jesus says I would have less understanding for them... but honestly if I looked at christianity I wouldn't believe it was even the way, never mind the only way.

It's when I look to Christ alone that I can clearly see that He is the only revelation of the Father... christianity has actually made that harder for me to see...

 

[aspen]

Glad our words created positivity Aspen... I love that = )

After rereading what I wrote the one thing I noticed is that I didn't take any responsibility for the part I played in any of my negative interactions with religious people. The part I played was feeling the need for the person to acknowledge that I was right. If my eyes would have been on Jesus I wouldn't have needed anyone else to acknowledge me because Jesus saying it is right would have been all I needed. So it's obvious the need for people to say I was right was coming from my ego and pride which is why I eventually began reacting in ego and pride. While I always began saying things that were good... as soon as I began reacting in ego it's obvious that my voice changed from the Word of God to the Ego of Rob... haha

So what I'm personally working on is just trusting the truth... putting it out there and letting it do what it does... and most importantly not needing for anyone to say that I'm right... to simply believe that Jesus is right and rejoicing in that... this to me is another bit of bondage the Lord's TRuth is setting me free from.

Blessings and Unity

Martin,

I try to never talk about Oprah, or Obama, or anyone else that I only know about through media...

What they say when on TV might not even be who they really are... or what they really believe...

Remember even Peter denied the Lord while he warmed His hands around the enemies fire...

I would hate to judge someone wrongly especially after Jesus specifically said, "Don't Judge"

As far as someone who believes Jesus isn't the only way to God... if christianity was doing what Jesus says I would have less understanding for them... but honestly if I looked at christianity I wouldn't believe it was even the way, never mind the only way.

It's when I look to Christ alone that I can clearly see that He is the only revelation of the Father... christianity has actually made that harder for me to see...

Agreed. CS Lewis talked about not liking the label Christian for the same reason.

 

[Rach1370]

Hey guys! Nice post you've got going here!
You know, I've had a fairly sheltered life...brought up in a big, extended family within a small town. Pretty much everyone I know is a Christian, and I've married into a Christian family. So it sorted of shocked and dismayed me, coming to this board, at how many people are intent on only being right, gladly sacrificing love in that quest.

I don't think we should dismiss doctrine, in fact I'm finding that the more I learn, the more I get to know my Father, my Savior...the more I understand the wonderful plan behind salvation, the more I love my God!

But I agree that too often we can focus too much on one or the other, and not marry them in a perfect Biblical response. To be too stuck on being right, we can become legalistic; cold hard and unloving. But witness the Ecumenical movement today...they're all about loving the community, making all welcome....but where's Jesus?

It's all about Jesus! His perfect love, His perfect sacrifice, and I pray that I will always remember that, in my daily living and in my interactions with everyone.

 

[amadeus]

Didn't you know that everyone is right Aspen?

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

And as for criticism...

"Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning." Prov 9:8-9

And then just lots of words...

"In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise." Prov 10:19

And then has anyone heard that ...

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1

"...a time to keep silence, and a time to speak" Ecc 3:7

And fools too...

"Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding." Prov 17:28

 

[timf]

I think the modern way of studying the bible has caused a lot of confusion...

The "modern" way to study anything is the classroom educational model where everything is reduced to data and information. The apprentice model (think Paul and Timothy) was universal until the church slowly adopted and expanded the Socratic "academy" model to become what we have today. Christianity without relationship is like a textbook on boat building without a lake or an ocean.

He came to shake up the establishment and turn everyone's ideas on their head.

I can see where someone might form this opinion, but Jesus came to give testimony to the truth. Only some of those who were not of the truth were "shaken up". Being shaken does not automatically cause one to see truth. In fact, if the Father does not draw someone, he will not come to truth. We are so immersed in the modern model of education that we think if someone is exposed to truth, he will accept it.

Jesus mentioned the "leaven" of the Pharisees, Saducees, and Herodians. We might think of this as the danger of thinking we are going to heaven because of what we do, who we are, or who we know. There are many other ways to get off-track. It has been said that Satan doesn't care what you believe as long as it isn't the truth.

I think this is the real reason Rick Warren and his movement in the church is so hated by some.......far too scary to face the idea that we may be wrong in our exclusiveness.

If one were to critique Rick's detractors, one might suggest that they could be overly dependent on the comfort provided by the organizational inertia to which they have attached themselves. However, if one were to critique Rick, one might suggest that entertainment and emotional stimulation are not necessarily closer to the truth.

The problem with churches today is that they are pretty much legacy inertial social systems that carry people professing Christ through the years with momentum and tradition yet produce little in the way of Christ-likeness.

The solution is not a different system or system modification. The solution is not even to be "shaken up".The solution is for each Christian to seek out older wiser Christians who clearly show the light and love of Jesus in their lives and ask them to help them grow to be like Jesus as well.

We need Godly Christian relationships. This almost has to be accomplished outside of church systems, programs, events, and classes. Reformation of systems doesn't work. Conformation of an individual heart to Christ is the key.

 

[aspen]

I am really learning a great deal from all the posts on this thread - thanks.