Crusades Began with Reconquista

[Matthias]

Nero being emperor when Romans was written only proves that a wicked, psychotic, pagan ruler can possess God-ordained governmental authority. It does not prove that the wicked ruler's every act suddenly becomes "God-ordained righteousness".

Thats the distinction.

Jeremiah calls Nebuchadnezzar God's “servant,” yet God later says He will punish the king of Babylon and that nation “for their iniquity.”

So being used by God does not make a ruler righteous and possessing authority under God's providence does not make every command righteous. Executing a legitimate function of government does not turn every murderous atrocity committed by that government into "divine justice".

Romans 13 does not say, “Whatever Caesar does is good because Caesar is in power.” Paul describes the proper function of governing authority --- restraining evil, punishing wrongdoing, and maintaining order.

And yes, Paul wrote that while Nero was emperor and that actually strengthens the point.

Nero could possess real governmental authority without being a righteous man. Nebuchadnezzar could be called God's servant without being a righteous man. God can use wicked rulers without calling their wickedness good.

The same principle applies in the West today.

The fact that rulers possess lawful governmental authority does not make them righteous, and it certainly does not transform every corrupt, destructive, dishonest, or wicked policy they pursue into the will of God.

Authority is not righteousness.
Providence is not endorsement.
God using a ruler is not God approving everything that ruler does.

The Bible itself makes that distinction.

Thank you. That‘s my position. You’ve stated it well.

 

[Wrangler]

Paul describes the proper function of governing authority --- restraining evil, punishing wrongdoing, and maintaining order.

Restraining evil by force when necessary is righteous, God ordained function of government. This explains why every government that ever existed had police and military - for the righteous use of violence to restrain evil as necessary.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Restraining evil by force when necessary is righteous, God ordained function of government. This explains why every government that ever existed had police and military - for the righteous use of violence to restrain evil as necessary.

You keep saying government may use force to restrain evil. Fine. Who defines evil, God, or the government wielding the force?

 

[Wrangler]

You keep saying government may use force to restrain evil

Seems you have a problem with that. Why?

Fine. Who defines evil, God, or the government using the force?

Words are already defined. Feel free to consult your favorite lexicon.

Seems you are trying to split hairs to create division where there is harmony. In theory, God defines evil. In legal practice, his servants in government define evil.

There is nothing inherently or theoretically driving in the left or right. It’s left to our servants in government to facilitate order.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Seems you have a problem with that. Why?



Words are already defined. Feel free to consult your favorite lexicon.

Seems you are trying to split hairs to create division where there is harmony. In theory, God defines evil. In legal practice, his servants in government define evil.

There is nothing inherently or theoretically driving in the left or right. It’s left to our servants in government to facilitate order.

It’s not me splitting hairs; it’s you avoiding the 10,000-pound elephant in the room which is:

If government is allowed to define the evil its supposedly “righteously restraining,” what stops Nero, Hitler, Stalin or any other homicidal regime from baptizing its own violence as righteousness? Absolutely nothing.

In order for your theory to work, I'd have to accept that Nero’s government was “doing God’s work” while it persecuted and murdered Christians simply because Nero was exercising state authority.

I’d have to accept that Stalin was ‘doing God’s work’ when his government sent state forces against peasants, arrested and executed clergy, imprisoned Christian believers, and destroyed thousands of churches.

But then you’d have to apply the same rule consistently. Hitler was also the head of a government exercising state power against people his government declared “evil and an enemy to the state.”

So was Hitler “doing God’s work” too? According to you he must’ve been.

Of course you’re not going to say that.

And the moment you refuse to say it, you’ve admitted the entire premise is false: government authority does not automatically make a government’s violence righteous.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

I was prepared to reject the idea that Hitler was doing God’s work until Snopes inconveniently confirmed that he publicly declared his movement Christian. Did Adolf Hitler Say 'Our Movement Is Christian'?

So here we go...

Government? Check.
Christianity invoked? Check.
Enemies of the state officially branded evil, dangerous, and subversive? Check.
State force deployed? Check.

According to the theology being preached in this thread, what exactly is left to object to? I mean Nero, Stalin and Mao weren’t publicly grounding their regimes in Christianity like that, were they?? No.. But they still get the nod and broad “God-ordained government” pass from your theology.. and then Hitler doesn't get the nod when he's the only one publicly invoking Christianity. Man... how does that theological, slow-motion train wreck work..

By the exact standards you’ve been preaching here, Hitler actually checks more of your boxes than Nero, Stalin or Mao.
I mean, that’s astonishing and frankly hard to believe.. but it’s your theology producing that conclusion, not mine.

 

[Matthias]

Every Christian today owes a debt that can never be repaid to their brave ancestors who kept Christianity save from the forces of evil …

”When men of God are mighty in prayer, we owe much to them.” - C.H. Spurgeon

 

[Wrangler]

It’s not me splitting hairs; it’s you avoiding the 10,000-pound elephant in the room which is:

If government is allowed to define the evil its supposedly “righteously restraining,” what stops Nero, Hitler, Stalin or any other homicidal regime from baptizing its own violence as righteousness? Absolutely nothing.

We disagree. Nothing can stop government from defining evil in practice.

Another poster already elaborated multiple times. Just because government is a servant of God to do justice doesn’t mean everything government does is righteous. It’s that simple.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Earlier you said government’s use of force to restrain evil is a “righteous, God-ordained function.”

Now you say government itself “defines evil in practice.”

That creates a circular doctrine...

Government defines the evil, then government uses force against what it defined as evil, then the force is called righteous because it restrained evil.

Thats the blank check I’ve been objecting to...

Thats how you end up in hell-on-earth England with mentally ill satanic trans-psychopaths running the entire country arresting people for not accepting that there are 987 genders. If you’re not down with 987 genders and say there's only 2, then you are dangerous & “evil” in their eyes and they’ve got all the guns, and run all the prisons so now what? Now we've got an army of satanic pedophiles running around with police batons arresting Christians they deem "evil" for disagreeing with them. "The Christians must be re-educated until they agree with our trans doctrine; APPROVED BY ROMANS 13 ya know!" “Our government is ordained by God now SAY it!!!! SAY IT!!!!!!! There are Nine Hundred and Eighty Seven GENDERS!!!!" "I don't know if the state can whip the "only 2 sexes" lie out of this evil Christians mouth. Almighty God help us make this sinner see the light and understand that there are 987."

See how that works? Not a pretty sight is it..

And saying afterward that “not everything government does is righteous” doesn’t fix it. By what standard do we decide when government has falsely defined something as evil? If the answer is the Christian God’s standard, then government never defined evil in the first place.

In practice a Bond villain like Dr. Hugo Drax from Moonraker with his own island government & army would be "doing God's work" no matter what the hell he was up to. Defining the entire planet and all who disagree with him "evil" who need to be eradicated. But don't worry Dr. Drax has "APPROVED BY ROMANS 13" painted on the sides of all his poisonous space shuttles so it's all good. He's got his own government so he's "doing the Lord's work."

Don't see any inherent danger there huh?

 

[Wrangler]

Earlier you said government’s use of force to restrain evil is a “righteous, God-ordained function.”

Now you say government itself “defines evil in practice.”

That creates a circular doctrine...

Nope. You are pretending the issue is definition.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Nope. You are pretending the issue is definition.

You don’t get to run around all over this forum calling Nero’s antichrist-atrocities “God-ordained” because he was the government, then suddenly carve out exceptions when the same logic reaches Hitler who publicly invoked his movement as Christian up above. What you're doing is a word so far beyond hypocritical, were going to have to come up with a new term for it... I guess theological special pleading in your case.

In a world where Nero burning thousands of crucified Christian bodies to illuminate Rome at night is "doing God's work."

And then Hitler and the German government after invoking Christianity and then using the state to try to remove a people they deemed dangerous to them and instead of calling it "doing God's work" they're deemed the most demonic force that ever lived.

You have a Grand Canyon running straight through your theology, and the double standard on display is absolutely barbaric.

 

[Wrangler]

You don’t get to run around all over this forum calling Nero’s antichrist-atrocities “God-ordained” because he was the government

Are you dense? This has been beaten to death. See below.

Another poster already elaborated multiple times. Just because government is a servant of God to do justice doesn’t mean everything government does is righteous. It’s that simple.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Are you dense? This has been beaten to death. See below.

I’m not dense. You’re just incapable of admitting... or perhaps even realizing? that your own qualification destroys your original claim..
You’re just so committed to your own contradiction that you keep repeating it like repetition somehow turns incoherence into theology.