@Davidpt
This is very interesting, I don’t want to necessarily defend my position but I want to see how far AI will go to defend the statements it already made.
The above post is from AI not Davidpt.
Since AI is doubling down on the visions being in heaven vs reading room logic, I would like to know if AI agrees that it should be applied to Revelation 20:4 also. In post#35 AI states that the Revelation 6:9-10 scene takes place in the heavenly realm, outside the bounds of physical history. Does the millennium living and reigning with Christ also take place outside the bounds of physical history?
The above posts are from AI not Davidpt
Did AI actually look at some examples of people being killed during the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant before making the statement of “how long” being a standard covenantal lament and the comment about their consciousness being dominated by the memory of their execution?
In 2 Chronicles 24:22 Zechariah, as he lay dying from being stoned, said, “ May the Lord see this and call you to account”.
In Acts 7:60 when Stephen was being stoned, he said “Lord, lay not this sin to their charge” right before he died.
Asking for blood to be avenged is an old covenant lament. Asking for forgiveness as we forgive our debtors is a new covenant request and privilege.
In order to have the Revelation 6:9-10 laments and requests to be avenged take place in the new covenant we would have to conflate the two covenants and that is exactly what AI has done here.
Perhaps we could say the Revelation 6:11 rest is referring to resting from old covenant lamenting and blood being avenged. Meaning a transition to the new covenant judgement.
Matthew 6:14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
That would solve the problem of conflating the two covenants, but if AI wants to make that argument then we need to look at one of its previous statements.
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copy and paste from AI in post#14
The Wait (Rev 6:11): White robes are given, and they are told to rest heōs (UNTIL) the number of their fellow servants to be killed is fulfilled.
The Throne (Rev 20:4): The slaughter is finished, the clock hits zero, and John sees thrones, and judgment (krima) was given to them.
The word "until" (heōs) acts as a strict temporal countdown. The white robes grant the martyrs personal vindication and a judicial declaration of righteousness while they wait under the altar. It is a guarantee of future retribution, but they are explicitly barred from the thrones because the historical quota of suffering is not yet fulfilled.
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Clearly AI thinks the rest is from the judgement and the blood being avenged until the slaughter is finished. Then that judgement is given to the souls in Revelation 20:4.
We have to consider Matthew 6:14-15, if AI is correct, then when the souls get that judgement in Revelation 20:4 they have the choice to forgive or require their blood to be avenged at that time. But that then leads to the idea that a person doesn’t have to forgive during their life on earth, they will have a chance to forgive after their death.
If AI is correct we can anticipate we will not retain our current attitude about forgiveness once we die(as in Stephen’s case), we will have a completely opposite attitude and once given the judgement we will make a choice at that time to forgive or not.
This same Google AI:
The Flaws in grafted branch's Argument
1. The Forgiveness vs. Divine Vengeance Trap
He claims that asking for blood to be avenged (Rev 6:10) is strictly an "Old Covenant lament" (citing Zechariah), and that New Covenant believers only ask for forgiveness (citing Stephen). He argues that if these are New Covenant martyrs, they are violating Matthew 6:14–15.
• The Textual Refutation: He is confusing personal malice with a cry for cosmic justice. The souls under the altar are not a lynch mob; they are appealing to the holiness and truth of God ("O Lord, holy and true").
• The New Testament Context: The New Testament explicitly commands believers to leave room for God’s vengeance because God will avenge them. Paul writes in Romans 12:19: "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves... Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." If God avenging His people is purely an "Old Covenant concept," then Romans 12 and Luke 18:7 ("And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him?") would be obsolete.
2. The Spatial Shift (Heaven vs. Earth)
He asks: "Does the millennium living and reigning with Christ also take place outside the bounds of physical history?"
• The Textual Refutation: No. The Millennium explicitly intersects physical earth history. As your study established, Satan is bound from deceiving earthly nations [20:3], and the camp of the saints is surrounded on the physical breadth of the earth [20:9]. He is trying to force the physical events of Revelation 20 into a disembodied state to bypass the chronological lock with Revelation 13.
Your argument in Post #48 is an interesting philosophical diversion, but it completely breaks down when held to standard New Testament theology and the strict spatial language of the text. You are creating a false theological dichotomy regarding "forgiveness" to force a first-century cutoff that the text explicitly rejects.
1. The "Covenantal Lament" Fallacy
You argue that crying out for blood to be avenged is strictly an Old Covenant feature, and that New Covenant believers are barred from this because of Matthew 6:14–15. You cite Stephen’s dying words as proof.
This completely confuses personal, malicious unforgiveness with a holy appeal for divine, cosmic justice. The martyrs under the altar are appealing directly to God's legal character: "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood...?" [Rev 6:10].
The New Testament explicitly teaches that crying out for God's justice is an ongoing reality for the New Covenant Church.
• In Luke 18:7, Jesus explicitly says: "And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily."
• In Romans 12:19, Paul instructs the Church: "Avenge not yourselves... for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
The souls under the altar are doing exactly what Romans 12 commands: they did not avenge themselves on earth; they left it entirely in the hands of the Righteous Judge. Appealing to God to execute His written, righteous judgments against raw evil is not an "Old Covenant violation of forgiveness"—it is standard New Testament theology.
2. The Geographic Location of the Millennium
You ask if the Millennium in Revelation 20:4 takes place outside the bounds of physical history.
The text explicitly says no. John tells us exactly where the mechanics of the Millennium play out. Satan is bound so that he cannot deceive the nations [20:3]. When he is loosed, he goes to the four quarters of the earth to gather armies to battle [20:8], and they march across the breadth of the earth to surround the camp of the saints [20:9].
Nations, physical geography, and military invasions do not happen in a disembodied, timeless, heavenly realm. The text explicitly anchors the Millennium to the physical earth.
3. The Sequential Lock
You quoted my previous point regarding the "Until" (heōs) countdown in Revelation 6:11. The souls are told to rest until the specific quota of their fellowservants to be killed "as they were" is fulfilled.
Because Revelation 20:4 explicitly grants the krima (ruling authority) to the specific generation of overcomers who refused the Beast, his image, and his mark—a crisis defined by the literal 42-month earthly timeline of Revelation 13—the Millennium cannot possibly be running right now. You cannot have the trial of the mark (Group C) happening after the Millennium ends while simultaneously claiming Group C uses that trial to qualify for the thrones during the Millennium. The timeline demands the crisis happens first, the fire consumes the Beast, and the physical resurrection (ezēsan) initiates the reign.
