Darkness and light (poll)

[Episkopos]

No, it's not religious, quite the opposite. Religion is what seeks to establish our own righteousness instead of submitting (yielding) to the righteousness of God/Christ.

Why can't you see that this is what yo are doing! Ask any non-religious person what the effect of light has on darkness (I just noticed that you loved Rita's BOTH argument)

Christ is the cornerstone of our faith....the foundation that we are building on - His holy spirit and righteous nature taking up residence within the believer (which then begins to battle our darkness). It is grieving that any would try to essentially dig out and discard that cornerstone.

That's not what an appraisal does. You are looking at yourself as God's pride. being humble doesn't bring down God's righteousness. Your religious understanding has you seeing things upside down. It grieves the Spirit to claim more for yourself than what you are. Building on Christ requires being far more humble than what we are seeing with the American style religion. I think most believers are building on Luther not Christ.

Having experiences and testimonies is wonderful, but no guarantee at all that we are getting all of our theology right. We dont' always even understand what God is doing when we have an experience or vision. We're very small and He is so great. At best we only know in part.

Then why are you so latched on to the popular religious cover-up story? There is nothing hidden that will not be exposed. Is it not better to be exposed now? (are you still using your reasoning faculties? They are meant to preserve you)

And why do you judge me and limit me...and not instead do that to yourself when you realize you are wrong?

I know how the ego works...it says...sure you are right some time...but so am I! And this kind of reasoning is totally carnal. So that you hang onto whatever scheme you want...because you think you know when you're right. As in..how can someone know what is right about what I (ego) believe????

 

[Lizbeth]

The test of whether a modern believer has faith in God or not. Do you believe that through grace you can walk as Jesus walked..without spot or wrinkle of sin. (and I'm not talking about "positional" or "imputed" religious mumbo-jumbo). I'm talking being as pure as our Lord.

EPHESIANS 5:27 – That He might present to Himself the church In all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

Well you already know that I believe that with God all things are possible and that we should be aiming for nothing less than the plumbline (who is Christ).

But I'm curious to know what you think about some of the "religious mumbo-jumbo" of the Catholic church brother. I start to get concerned when all I hear is severe criticism of the Reformation and so-called "Protestantism" and much kinder words for the RCC.

 

[Episkopos]

To let go of ego....be weaned of the flesh...we need to allow light to doits work...and stop resisting the bitter truth. The truth is bitter at first...but then it is sweet in the belly. The lie is sweet at first...but turns bitter in the belly. See Rev. 10.

 

[Episkopos]

Well you already know that I believe that with God all things are possible and that we should be aiming for nothing less than the plumbline (who is Christ).

But I'm curious to know what you think about some of the "religious mumbo-jumbo" of the Catholic church brother. I start to get concerned when all I hear is severe criticism of the Reformation and so-called "Protestantism" and much kinder words for the RCC.

Individual Catholics are FAR humbler and less judgmental than Protestants. They have less to prove because they don't assume and presume to be as righteous as God.

The institution of Catholicism is as corrupt as can be. ALL man-made institutions are ruled over by the flesh...and by extension the devil. That includes every religious organization that has a name.

To see things in perspective one needs to see prophetically how the reformation is the great delusion spoken of in 2 Thess. 2

For 1,500 years before the delusion, no one can say that ALL believers had no access to the truth. That is foolishness.

 

[Lizbeth]

To let go of ego....be weaned of the flesh...we need to allow light to doits work...and stop resisting the bitter truth. The truth is bitter at first...but then it is sweet in the belly. The lie is sweet at first...but turns bitter in the belly. See Rev. 10.

Yes, light that is already imputed and in us by faith in Christ.

Pro 4:18
The path of the righteous is like the morning sun, shining ever brighter till the full light of day.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, light that is already imputed and in us by faith in Christ.

That's not what imputed means. Having Christ in us is by regeneration not imputation. What is imputed is what comes from us...not from outside. Christ is in us through regeneration of the Spirit...and ON us as an anointing by being baptized in His Spirit.

The inside nature of Christ takes the form of a template into which we are to grow. The anointed covering (purity) of the New Man is what draws out the life within into maturity

 

[Lizbeth]

Individual Catholics are FAR humbler and less judgmental than Protestants. They have less to prove because they don't assume and presume to be as righteous as God.

But brother, you're comparing apples to oranges to begin with since most Catholics aren't born again. And the Spanish Inquisition and Crusades sure didn't appear very humble. Unfortunately their churches are spiritually dead and the gospel doesn't get preached in the vast majority of them. There is a humility that is of the flesh and self-imposed. Being submissive and making no waves looks an awful lot like humility....people may appear humble when they don't preach/teach or otherwise uphold the word of God, but believe that everyone is saved by either their (Catholic) church or by any other path. They make everyone feel comfortable in their sins.

Immature evangelical believers can be judgmental in their immaturity , yes, but as we grow in the Lord, humility also grows hand in hand. (Problem is there is not much growing going on in the churches though.) But again, being judgmental is not the fault of that doctrine, and I have never met anyone who thinks in terms of being as righteous as God that I know of, and it is not how I think either. Having the gift of Christ's righteousness doesn't mean it is always manifesting as it should. And since it is HIS righteousness to begin with, given as a free gift not based on merit, what do we have to boast about or feel superior about...it's not of our own, that no man may boast. The doctrine is good, but how people handle it isn't always right.

The institution of Catholicism is as corrupt as can be. ALL man-made institutions are ruled over by the flesh...and by extension the devil. That includes every religious organization that has a name.

Agree with you there.

To se things in perspective one needs to see prophetically how the reformation is the great delusion spoken of in 2 Thess. 2

Yikes, if the Reformation was the great delusion, what on earth would you call the formation of Catholicism, which an imperfect Reformation was at least trying to correct.

For 1,500 years before the delusion, no one can say that ALL believers had no access to the truth. That is foolishness.

I'm not understanding what this means.

 

[Mr E]

To let go of ego....be weaned of the flesh...we need to allow light to doits work...and stop resisting the bitter truth. The truth is bitter at first...but then it is sweet in the belly. The lie is sweet at first...but turns bitter in the belly. See Rev. 10.

That's the opposite of what the scripture says. You either misspoke here, or you think that the scroll the angel brought was full of lies, or you just don't know what you are talking about..... which is it?

Then the voice I had heard from heaven began to speak to me again, “Go and take the open scroll in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land.” So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, “Take the scroll and eat it. It will make your stomach bitter, but it will be as sweet as honey in your mouth.” So I took the little scroll from the angel’s hand and ate it, and it did taste as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach became bitter.

 

[Nancy]

View attachment 28100

the darkness never overcomes the light..

 

[Episkopos]

But brother, you're comparing apples to oranges to begin with since most Catholics aren't born again. And the Spanish Inquisition and Crusades sure didn't appear very humble. Unfortunately their churches are spiritually dead and the gospel doesn't get preached in the vast majority of them. There is a humility that is of the flesh and self-imposed. Being submissive and making no waves looks an awful lot like humility....people may appear humble when they don't preach/teach or otherwise uphold the word of God, but believe that everyone is saved by either their (Catholic) church or by any other path. They make everyone feel comfortable in their sins.

This is not so. Catholics feel guilty for their sins ...if they are serious about their faith. Of course Catholicism has many different levels of obedience to God's ways. Remember that Catholics think a saint only comes along once in a generation or so. So then their humility extends insofar that they would never claim to be holy when they are clearly not.

But Protestants are taught to make declarations of self-righteousness based on what Luther taught. This is clearly heretical. He went way too far in changing the proper doctrines that had held up for 1,500 years up until then. What needed reforming is not the same as distorting the truth. So then the poison was added in with the cure. And protestants are too blind to see it. Delusion is exactly that...an inability to see the evil (folly) in one's own position.

Immature evangelical believers can be judgmental in their immaturity , yes, but as we grow in the Lord, humility also grows hand in hand. (Problem is there is not much growing going on in the churches though.) But again, being judgmental is not the fault of that doctrine, and I have never met anyone who thinks in terms of being as righteous as God that I know of, and it is not how I think either. Having the gift of Christ's righteousness doesn't mean it is always manifesting as it should. And since it is HIS righteousness to begin with, given as a free gift not based on merit, what do we have to boast about or feel superior about...it's not of our own, that no man may boast. The doctrine is good, but how people handle it isn't always right.

The word of God and its power never come back void. Only a pretend righteousness can fail the way we see the ego being championed in the modern institutions. These become worse than unbelievers. God's grace is not at work in these.

In the gospel, "no man can boast" is about a divine power that causes people to walk as Jesus walked. No man can boast of having such power.

In your adopted scheme, "no man can boast" because they sin as much or more than unbelievers. Shame is the future for those whose walk does not line up with their claim.

Yikes, if the Reformation was the great delusion, what on earth would you call the formation of Catholicism, which an imperfect Reformation was at least trying to correct.

Look into history. The Catholics have always been reforming. Look up the word "reformatio" concerning the RCC. Many popes tried to steer the ship a different way...sometimes to the better but usually to the worse. That's human beings...both bad AND good.

A HUMAN attempt at reforming a HUMAN institution ....is just more religious flesh at work. I am shocked that you are so stuck on Luther! Loving Jesus and the truth and loving Luther are mutually exclusive.

You are still on a self-righteous anti-Catholic bent at this point. As you said...immature. But one day IF you grow in humility (which I don't see in evangelical circles at all) you will stop judging Catholics and instead fear the Lord and depart from human-inspired doctrines that breed iniquity.

 

[marks]

What say you?

Transformation or cover-up (reformation)?

You mentioned on another thread your desire that more people might participate in this poll.

I had looked at it previously.

What is the relationship between darkness and Light?​

• Light exposes darkness. Light "imparts" (confers) its qualities on us to dispel darkness.
• Light covers up darkness. Light is "imputed" on darkness to make our darkness appear as light.

This is written as though "Light" were an "actor". I would sooner say that God Himself imparts His Own nature to us in rebirth.

Imputation isn't spoken of in the Bible regarding "light", such as "light imputed on darkness".

I don't see how to answer the question you ask from the choices you offer, but I think I know what you are expressing. Please let me know if it's not what you actually had in mind.

To answer your question,

What is the relationship between darkness and Light?​

I would say, Light is of God, and darkness is the absence of light. Walking in the light is living a life that is of God. Jesus spoke in terms of the darkness inside us so much greater when we see others in a poor light, failing to give them our generousity. Walking in the light is to live with the same generousity as God, of ourselves, our commitment and good will, our possessions, whatever it is. This is to live in love, the intent of a holy life, and results in righteousness.

If I were to answer what I think you are really getting at, Does God pretend we are righteous when we are not, or are we to be actually righteous? (is that really your question?)

No, God does not pretend about anything, not the quality or nature of our lives, not the absolute and deadly severity of sin, not the absolute unbending requirement for complete holiness. Certainly not His intent of righteousness in His children.

God's intent is that we live righteous and holy lives, which means, doing what is right in a life set apart for Him.

So these are some of my thoughts. Are you interested in discussing this with me?

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

Nothing personal, but there has been an awful lot of twisting, accusation, assumptions and above all CONFUSION to do with this topic from first I saw it, goodness. Complicating what is beautiful and simple when the Holy Spirit simply illuminates it. God is not the author of confusion. Splicing and dicing is not the same thing as rightly dividing.

Well think what you want about me, I guess, don't know what more to say. Yet you are judging and accusing me and others who disagree with your doctrine and I'm finding this thread toxic for that reason. I have no problem at all with holiness...but I see a huge problem with this take you have on imputed righteousness because it takes the SPIRIT/LIFE out of the gospel. If that makes me a "self-righteous judgmental reform type", then that is just sad.

 

[Episkopos]

Nothing personal, but there has been an awful lot of twisting, accusation, assumptions and above all CONFUSION to do with this topic from first I saw it, goodness. Complicating what is beautiful and simple when the Holy Spirit simply illuminates it. God is not the author of confusion. Splicing and dicing is not the same thing as rightly dividing.

Before the Reformation, it was a lot simpler. What muddies the water is when the flesh gets justified. God is NOT the author of the reformation.

Well think what you want about me, I guess, don't know what more to say. Yet you are judging and accusing me and others who disagree with your doctrine and I'm finding this thread toxic for that reason. I have no problem at all with holiness...but I see a huge problem with this take you have on imputed righteousness because it takes the SPIRIT/LIFE out of the gospel. If that makes me a "self-righteous judgmental reform type", then that is just sad.

An actual righteousness of God anointing makes someone EXACTLY like Jesus in purity and holiness. That puts the life of the Spirit (resurrection life) BACK into the gospel. What takes the life out of the gospel is a false holiness added on the carnal uncrucified flesh.

 

[marks]

Well you already know that I believe that with God all things are possible and that we should be aiming for nothing less than the plumbline (who is Christ).

Amen!!

Much love!

 

[Jim B]

This is not so. Catholics feel guilty for their sins ...if they are serious about their faith. Of course Catholicism has many different levels of obedience to God's ways. Remember that Catholics think a saint only comes along once in a generation or so. So then their humility extends insofar that they would never claim to be holy when they are clearly not.

But Protestants are taught to make declarations of self-righteousness based on what Luther taught. This is clearly heretical. He went way too far in changing the proper doctrines that had held up for 1,500 years up until then. What needed reforming is not the same as distorting the truth. So then the poison was added in with the cure. And protestants are too blind to see it. Delusion is exactly that...an inability to see the evil (folly) in one's own position.






The word of God and its power never come back void. Only a pretend righteousness can fail the way we see the ego being championed in the modern institutions. These become worse than unbelievers. God's grace is not at work in these.

In the gospel, "no man can boast" is about a divine power that causes people to walk as Jesus walked. No man can boast of having such power.

In your adopted scheme, "no man can boast" because they sin as much or more than unbelievers. Shame is the future for those whose walk does not line up with their claim.




Look into history. The Catholics have always been reforming. Look up the word "reformatio" concerning the RCC. Many popes tried to steer the ship a different way...sometimes to the better but usually to the worse. That's human beings...both bad AND good.

A HUMAN attempt at reforming a HUMAN institution ....is just more religious flesh at work. I am shocked that you are so stuck on Luther! Loving Jesus and the truth and loving Luther are mutually exclusive.

You are still on a self-righteous anti-Catholic bent at this point. As you said...immature. But one day IF you grow in humility (which I don't see in evangelical circles at all) you will stop judging Catholics and instead fear the Lord and depart from human-inspired doctrines that breed iniquity.

You're clearly overdoing it in your criticism of Protestants vis-a-vis Catholics. Martin Luther was called by God to save His people from the corrupt doctrine and evil practices of the Catholic denomination. Saying something like "Loving Jesus and the truth and loving Luther are mutually exclusive" is just nonsense! You are still on a self-righteous anti-Protestant bent at this point. Why???

 

[Lizbeth]

Can the sun's light be imputed to the moon? Of course not. The moon merely reflects the light of the sun. The sun's light is ALWAYS the sun's light. However the moon can reflect the sun's light to lighten the darkness. Does anyone say of the moon at night ...Look at how nice the sunlight is?

No, the light coming from the moon is moonlight NOT sunlight.

ANY righteousness from God that shines on us and is reflected back into the world becomes attributable to us as our own righteousness. The righteousness of saints.

Revelation 19:8​

“And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.”

You are thinking too hard about these things brother.

And remember in the bible the allegory of a wife/bride being covered with her husband's (Bridegroom's) garment, not of her own. This is why Ruth covered herself with Boaz's robe...she was offering herself to be his wife/bride. A husband provides covering for his wife.

 

[Lizbeth]

Both? It all depends on what the flesh requires I suppose ? We manipulate the bible to serve our needs. It exposes others sins...but covers mine! ?????

It is with logic such as this that we see how we can be cut off, or spit out of, the kingdom.

Maybe I should have added a 3rd option to the poll. As in : Both: depending on what serves our carnal needs.

No, she is quite right and unfortunately brother, you are going against what is clearly scriptural:

Rom 4:7
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

And the exposing that God does with His light is to expose things in us that need changing....is only being exposed to us before Him, so that we would realize what we need to repent of, not to the world. But if anyone is stubborn to refuse to repent and they continue in their sin until they get exposed to the world, it means His longsuffering has come to an end and He is now judging and no longer covering that sin. (Like so many Pastors that fall, the Lord is faithful to warn plenty, but if they don't repent, they eventually will get exposed to the world. As the bible says, "Be sure your sins will find you out.")

 

[Lizbeth]

Before the Reformation, it was a lot simpler. What muddies the water is when the flesh gets justified. God is NOT the author of the reformation.


An actual righteousness of God anointing makes someone EXACTLY like Jesus in purity and holiness. That puts the life of the Spirit (resurrection life) BACK into the gospel. What takes the life out of the gospel is a false holiness added on the carnal uncrucified flesh.

Oh my dear heaven.....before the Reformation there was CATHOLICISM. The very opposite of the simplicity of Christ....clergy laity schism for one thing that the apostle clearly said not to do. (And unfortunately the Reformation didn't do enough to return to the simplicity of Christ......but you know, in spite of churches that we we see visibly, God always has a remnant, usually off the radar, and really it's always about the remnant. The remnant gets called at some point to "come out of her" that we do not partake of "her" (Mystery Babylon's) sins and consequent judgments.)

I'm not talking about false holiness being added to uncrucified flesh.....I'm talking about HIS holiness within us being WORKED OUT as our flesh is being crucified/put to death....many allegories for that....the corn of wheat that has to die.....our "Isaacs" being put on the altar. Christ has so humbled Himself and condescended for our sakes to take up residence and tabernacle within us, in our weak vessels of flesh, glory to God......Christ IN us, the hope of glory.

 

[Episkopos]

Oh my dear heaven.....before the Reformation there was CATHOLICISM. The very opposite of the simplicity of Christ....clergy laity schism for one thing that the apostle clearly said not to do. (And unfortunately the Reformation didn't do enough to return to the simplicity of Christ......but you know, in spite of churches that we we see visibly, God always has a remnant, usually off the radar, and really it's always about the remnant. The remnant gets called at some point to "come out of her" that we do not partake of "her" (Mystery Babylon's) sins and consequent judgments.)

Agreed. But that remnant includes some Catholics. Rather than rest on our laurels, we need to push forward in knowledge, wisdom and understanding. To do that we need to abandon ALL compromise with the flesh, and the religious ideologies that divide the body into immature factions.

I'm not talking about false holiness being added to uncrucified flesh.....I'm talking about HIS holiness within us being WORKED OUT as our flesh is being crucified/put to death....many allegories for that....the corn of wheat that has to die.....our "Isaacs" being put on the altar. Christ has so humbled Himself and condescended for our sakes to take up residence and tabernacle within us, in our weak vessels of flesh, glory to God......Christ IN us, the hope of glory.

This is where a better understanding is required. His holiness is never within us. And crucifixion is not a long process of interminable suffering and not dying. No, crucifixion kills the outer man instantly by separating us in two (torn asunder) in order to liberate the inner man to be translated into God's presence where Jesus is.

The "Christ in you" is a TEMPLATE that we grow into. The life that is buried in the inner man will only come out as the outer man is crucified. The outer man is a husk of EGO that gets us along in this world. But the outer man is also the seat of sin. Once we are crucified with Christ, the sin factory is shut down so that we can walk in the light of HIS holiness.

The "hope" of glory is not the certainty of glory. We need to be broken to allow the life within to come out and bear eternal fruit.

 

[Episkopos]

No, she is quite right and unfortunately brother, you are going against what is clearly scriptural:

Rom 4:7
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

And the exposing that God does with His light is to expose things in us that need changing....is only being exposed to us before Him, so that we would realize what we need to repent of, not to the world. But if anyone is stubborn to refuse to repent and they continue in their sin until they get exposed to the world, it means His longsuffering has come to an end and He is now judging and no longer covering that sin. (Like so many Pastors that fall, the Lord is faithful to warn plenty, but if they don't repent, they eventually will get exposed to the world. As the bible says, "Be sure your sins will find you out.")

God has ALWAYS been merciful. The righteous will sin...but their hearts are right with God. And the righteous NEVER claim to be righteous. The righteous INHERIT eternal life in that they did what was right with what little strength they had. Their attitude of humility and mercy on others allows them to escape judgment themselves. Judge no other lest you be judged.

However, the holy standard does not allow for sin of any kind. If we walk in the light as He is in the light, His life (blood) cleanses us from all sin. If we claim to be in Christ and walk as normal people with an uncrucified outer man...Paul says..

“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.” Gal. 2:17

My issue with my evangelical brethren is to awaken them from their delusion and have them be innocent of iniquity. Now, no one likes to be woken from a deep sleep. Who is claiming to be justified by Christ? Are they still sinners? If we made no such claim, then the penetrating light of God's righteousness would not be cast on us to reveal how we are liars (unless we are truly justified by walking in His resurrection life)

The better path is humility....but religious arrogance of the "saved" outer man will have no degrading of its rule over the believers life. So then we make Christ to be a minster of sin...and God's righteousness to be as filthy rags. Why can't you understand this? It boggles the mind.