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Featured DAY OF THE LORD

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by BOWnQUIVER, Aug 26, 2020.

  1. BOWnQUIVER

    BOWnQUIVER Active Member

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    Nope.

    JOEL 2 [30] And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. [31] THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND THE TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COME.

    In Joel we find the sun will be darkened and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord

    MARK 13 [24] But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT,[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    In Mark you see that AFTER the great tribulation the sun is darkened and the moon.....
     
  2. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Well I never spoke anything of 1 or 2 so you misunderstood.

    Three Messiah is jesus based on the time frame.

    The two time frames of 7 weeks and 62 weeks is broken, but also represents the time of the reveal of Messiah. (many scholars accept Palm Sunday). The most rational reason I have seen for the breaking of the 69 weeks into two is describing the rebuild of Jerusalem which did take 49 years and was built in very troublous time.

    But as fro it being one time frame:

    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    From Artexerxes command to rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah was 483 years. or 69 sevens . Scripture shows them as one time span divided into two so we should as well!

    As for the masculine/ feminine tempest in a teapot you are trying to create. I will tell you what I have learned from my best Hebrew mentor. Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. That knowing the gender of the noun is important for properly translating the passage into English. It doesn't alter meanings or inflecttions of any word. It just is important for knowing how to translate the verbs and pronouns and other objects as they all must (with very few exceptions) match the gender of the subject noun! He is a native speaker and degreed in Hebrew. If you have a reason that you believe is different and is so vital to know, I am all ears!

    Your turn!
     
  3. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Well I have already pointed that out here or another thread! And I also pointed out an impoortant discitnction between Matthew and Joel.

    In Joel we have the sunlight eclipsed somehow and the moon turn into a blood moon, But in Mark both the sun and moon do not shed light! Do you see the difference?

    So these are speaking of two different events. God don't make mistakes!
     
  4. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    FALSE:
    Per: #1. Use an Ancient Fuifillment, -- in violation of 12:4 & 9.
    Per: #2. ... to disregard the Literal "shama"/"biyn", and the associated prospect that the Psalms was the Reference for "perceived in the books", -- which IS the Reference Book where we FIND the "going forth of the word".

    Quote = RA: From the command by artexerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until Jesus is 483 years.

    The Psalms provides the "BOOK" and Chapter 24 Provides the "going forth of the word", -- for 1924.

    “[Per Young] This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God. Young goes on to point out that the expression the commandment, which he insists is better translated “a word” (Heb. Dābār; cf. 2Ch 30:5) is also found is Daniel 9:23 for a word from God.[1]


    [1] John Walvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 224


    I HAVE NO IDEA what you're attempting to present. -- It's gibberish as far as I can tell.

    "messiah", small "m". Now if you want to Capitalize the "m", then add to Scripture. I'm CONFIDENT that GOD won't mind you CLARIFYING/CORRECTING/EDITING/CHANGING Scripture. But in the meantime, -- why does Jesus need guidance on how to compensate when HE sins?

    Lev. 4:3 If the priest that is anointed [H4899] do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

    Newton said:
    We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbering used by no nation.


    “... as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’”[1]

    “...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keil and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.”[2]

    [1] John Walvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217
    [2] IBID, p. 218

    Apparently NOT, because I quoted Young, Keil, & Kliefoth's observations multiple times, and you IGNORE IT! So either UNSTOP your ears, or admit that YOU DON'T CARE what Scripture ACTUALLY CONVEYS! :)


    -- I sense that you're looking for SIMPLE answer to a complex question. And because you haven't lined up all the "blocks", you can't accept ANY of the Blocks. So let me suggest that you start by looking at the 19th Book of the Bible and see if Chapter 48, = 19-48, presents the International Recognition of the State of Israel. And be sure to examine ALL the Psalms to ensure that the DESCRIPTION in this Chapter for this Year is UNIQUE in this Book. And then if you wish to purse this concept further, consider that J.R. Church wrote his book in 1985 which pre-dates the 1991 Desert Storm. So read THAT Chapter to see if it parallels the events for THAT YEAR. -- But NOTE that you will not find the 1967 Six-Day-War clearly defined because the Palestinians were attacking Israel for about a decade, including the 1972 Munich Massacre. So maybe try reading Psalms 44 for 19-44 to discover the Holocaust. Or Psalms 109, for 2009, which is Obama's Inauguration Year, to discover the animosity toward Israel and their perspective.

    With Best Regards,
    Bobby Jo
     
  5. BOWnQUIVER

    BOWnQUIVER Active Member

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    God dont make mistakes, but you do

    MARK 13 [19] For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.[20] And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.[21] And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:[22] For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.[23] But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

    {verses 19-23 describe the trib period}
    {verses 24-27 describe the Day of the Lord}

    [24] But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT,[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    In Mark you see the great tribulation period is FOLLOWED by a dark sun and dark moon

    JOEL 2 [10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: THE SUN AND THE MOON SHALL BE DARK, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [11] And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for THE DAY OF THE LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

    Both speaking of the very exact same event. Both scriptures, the moon and sun dark
     
  6. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Once again I di dnot present any of this information. go check the posts and see.

    Well Jesus is sinless and a priest after the order of Melchizedec not after the Levites so this is irrelevant.

    Well I misspelled "The" But Daniel presents when Jesus will appear. And that is also proven out in Jewish history as their was great Messianic fervor at the time of Jesus.

    Well Young may feel teh sevens is being used in an unusual sense- but there is no warrant for it as the times for weeks/years are historic fact now!

    And as for the 70 7's being years? NO that is not gleaned from the passage but the passage of time and the fulfilment of the events described in the first 69 7"s.

    I have no idea why you are rambling on with this gibberish. All I responded to was that there is no outstanding reason (other than one persons opinion) for the masculine to be used. The fact that the masculine is not as precise as the feminine is that the feminine has normally just one ending while the masculine has multiple endings!

    I have seen and read all these bible codes and date codes and many other secret renderings of adding, subtracting, dividing, looking at chapters and verse numbers etc.etc.etc.

    Some are very fascinating and do present to be more than coincidence, but to make doctrine or declare absolutes is foolish. We need a lifetime to master what is written in ink and in the chapters. Why should we start looking at book numbers, chapter #, verse # etc.etc. order of letters, etc.etc.etc. Most of them are all backward looking anyway. Now if someone could tell us a date of events that haven't happened yet- that would be more than nice!
     
  7. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    No they are not speaking of the same event. If you read Joel and kept this passage in its context you would have known better!

    Just because you see the sun and moon grow dark, does not mean it is the same event!

    Let us look at Joel 2:10 IN ITS CONTEXT>

    2 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

    2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

    3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

    4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

    5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

    6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

    7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

    8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

    9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

    10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

    11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

    The whole context is about a horde that is called the army of the Lord! It is when they march that teh sun and moon go dark! Now can we find an event with an army and something causing the sun and moon to grow dark?

    Revelation 9
    King James Version

    9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

    2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

    3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

    4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

    5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

    6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

    7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

    8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

    9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

    10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

    11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

    I will not commit to this 100% for there "appears" some issues, but this matches Joel 2's sun and moon event far more than the Lord returning.

    This is also a diffewrent evwent than Joel 2:31
     
  8. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    YOU presented a POSITION. -- Don't parse words.

    AGAIN, don't parse.


    THERE IS NOTHING in the Book of Daniel which provides ANY "WHEN". Certainly it presents "THAT", but not "WHEN". (Note: there is a sequence of timelines in Dan. 12 which are predicated upon other events, -- but there is no TIMELINE for THOSE EVENTS. Thus there still is NO "WHEN".


    Yeah, Young wrote his own Concordance, all based upon his "FEELINGS". -- Stop misrepresenting the TRUTH.


    You misstated the premise, that seventy sevens = 490 YEARS, -- WHEN IT'S NOT 490 years.


    ... is EVIDENCE OF THE AUTHOR'S INTENT. Now if you wish to DISREGARD a SPECIFIC Word, Phrase, Verse, Chapter, Book, or Bible, -- then please do so at your own risk.


    ... because they can either be proven to be TRUE or FALSE. But you can't discover what you're not looking for.



    -- I think your mind is made up, and no amount of Scripture and History will change it. So go your way and receive your reward.
    Bobby Jo
     
  9. BOWnQUIVER

    BOWnQUIVER Active Member

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    Hey RN, does your unbelief of the scriptures i posted have something to do with a rapture?
     
  10. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Yes I did. but I di dnot post anything bout what you say I posted. sorry but you are simply mistaken. Or if you are not, then I do not know what line of reasoning you are getting at.

    well not parsing ! Jesus is Messiah the Prince. He is the one who came 69 7"s into the vision given Daniel.

    I do not even know why you brought up sin/sinless ad priesthood. I was just answering to what you wrote.

    Well if one reads Daniel 9 in a normal usual manner , then yes there is a timeline!

    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    So bobby Jo, know and understand! From the time Artaxerxes commanded that Jerusalem be rebuilt, until Messiah the Prince (Jesus) is 7 and 62 sevens or 483 years as we have learned since!

    Yes He wrote a concordance. He was self taught in Hebrew as I am. Though I am sure he has learned greater depth than I. However that does not kmake his proclamation of why masculine was used an ex-cathedra statement! I have many Hebrew schoilars who say it is no big deal.

    I am still waiting for what you or young think the fact that the sevens are in the masculine signify. When are you going to stop evading this?

    I am not misrepresenting the truth. But when Young makes as statement and then does not give clarification- it is open for question and discussion in light of others who are better trained in the language.

    then whjat is it! I know you disagree- but you are not being forthright with an answer to counter. Why don't you quit this cat and mouse game.

    and asd you and Young (your support) offer no alternative of intent other than it being written in the masculine- your whole debate is simply8 a red herring.

    Well you vomit this answer to defned your biblical numerology yet reject that Jesus the Prince Messiah appeared 483 years after the command to rebuild Jeruslame. YOu have accused me of hypocrisy and being untruthful-when it appears it is you who are guilty.

    YOU ppost things on numerous topics and far from th eOP and one is supposed to keep up with you rrandomness?

    If you have a point you are getting to- do it! Unless it was simply to jab at a fellow believer!
     
  11. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    I am an enormous believer of the Scriptures, they are the infallible word of God! Is your glaring sin of presumtiousness based on learning an agenda whick skews how you see the Scripture?

    I clearly showed why the events of the sun and moon from the verses you quoted were not describing the same event-From the SCriptures! So instead of reading the verses in their context- you decide to bear false witness against a believer ?

    Here are the verse once again. Please read them in the context posted!

    MARK 13:

    14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

    15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

    16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

    17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

    19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

    20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

    21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

    22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

    23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

    24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

    25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

    26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

    Context here? right after the tribulation of the last 3 1/2 years Jesus is prepared to return and there is an eclipse of the sun and moon.

    Instead of falsely accusing me, if you disagree, sho wwhy you think I am wrong!

    Now Joel 2:

    Joel 2
    King James Version

    2 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

    2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

    3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

    4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

    5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

    6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

    7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

    8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

    9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

    10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

    11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

    Now this sun and moon darkening (kep it th econtext God inspired that is) is a result of a massive Army of the Lord!

    And this darkening is different from the one further down in Joel 2:

    23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

    24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.

    25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

    26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

    27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

    28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

    29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

    30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

    31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

    32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

    Now instead of just making arrogant accusations, if you disagree-why! Choice is yours.

    When the bible uses different words , we all should pay attention.

    See I let teh Bible form my opinioons. I didn't come to teh bible with an opinion already formed and then reinterpret Scriptures to make the Bible conform to my belief system.
     
  12. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    "From the decree given to Nehemiah by Artexerxes until Jerusalem was fully rebuilt was 49 years or 7 7"s."


    FALSE. A "מָשִׁיחַ mâshîyach H4899 is ANY Priest or King who is anointed.

    You have your mind made up and are content with YOUR version of "history", despite all the Scholar's DENIALS.


    So go your way and receive your reward. Can I make it any more clear? There's nothing to be gained so we're done!
    Bobby Jo
     
  13. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    that is what I said! Then the 62 sevens are the rest of the time until Jesus.

    Well mashiyach is a generic word. Even Satan was the "Messiahed Cherub"! and anyone anointed has been messiahed in that general sense!

    Se we have A messiah, and many messiahs, but also in Hebrew we have THE Messiah which is Jesus! Just like the Word Christ. IN greek there were many "christs" but there is only one Christ that matters!

    YOu presented 2 scholars that do not even show an alternativ erendering of teh 70 7"s you are more evasive than an oiled eel.

    My mind is made up! I believe everything I believe in! But I am always willing to change my mind when someone presents a better biblical argument. So far you have been all over the universe in your scatter shot approach. I am not sure anymore which one of you rabbit trails you are talking abou there.
     
  14. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    EXACTLY!

    Good luck,
    Bobby Jo
     
  15. BOWnQUIVER

    BOWnQUIVER Active Member

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    That is what you said earlier

    JOEL 2 [10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: THE SUN AND THE MOON SHALL BE DARK, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [11] And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for THE DAY OF THE LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

    But now i guess you must find another way to make your point. Because in Joel you find the sun and moon dark as you find in Mark

    Just wondering....Where in the world did you come up with an eclipse????
     
  16. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Eclipse is just another way of saying the sun and moon darkened. I have no idea if it is a literal eclipse. It was a metaphorical use.

    And No I do not need another way to prove my point. YOU DO! If you bothered keeping things in context youwould see that the Joel 2:10 darkening is do to the Lords Army wreaking havoc on earth and the Mark passage is a darkening heralding the Lords return AFTER not DURING the tribulation of those days!

    Mark 13:24-26
    King James Version

    24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

    25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

    26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

    Matthew 24:29-30
    King James Version

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


    LOOK CLOSELY!

    These darkenings are after the tribulation and right before teh Lords return!

    Now Joel 2.

    Joel 2
    King James Version

    2 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

    2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

    3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

    4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

    5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

    6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

    7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

    8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

    9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

    10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

    11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

    The context? The sun and moon are darkened as a result of this army of the Lord! Verse 10 shows that and the whole context is about this army, not the Lords return! Why do sane rational people seem to lose their ability to read things in context when it comes to the bible!

    Remember just because you see the sun dark and moon dark in differing passages does not make them all describing the same thing! LOOK at the CONTEXT!!!!!!
     
  17. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    so are you implying your mind is not made up and you are only throwing out an idea you may or may not believe in ?
     
  18. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    I have never heard of any pre-tribber teaching on the topic of your second paragraph.
     
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  19. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Then you haven't been listening, because I have heard the 'majority' of those on pre-trib I've asked which 'wrath' Paul meant there, and they pointed directly to the "great tribulation". That idea is one of the main doctrines of the pre-trib doctors used to comfort (they think), by telling their believers they won't be here to suffer the tribulation. "Don't worry, we aren't appointed to wrath, we won't be here", they will say. So I don't know where you've been to not know this.
     
  20. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    what are they you tubers you listen to? There is no reputable author or preacher I know of that teach pre trib the way you accuse us of!

    We won't be here for the wrath of the 70th week of Daniel. The whole 7 years is Gods Wrath poured out!

    what is a bizarre doctrine is this doctrine you have promoted that the 2nd half of the 70th week is the wrath of Satan! This is brand new!

    I am directly asking you to show the people that you say are the "majority".
     
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