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Featured DAY OF THE LORD

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by BOWnQUIVER, Aug 26, 2020.

  1. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Like Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15-18 declares, the mystery of God declared by His prophets, for this world, is finished, and The Father and The Son take over reign over all the kingdoms of this world, on that 7th angel sounding, which is the 7th Trumpet. There is not another one after that.
     
  2. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Don't you realize you aren't really staying with God's Word as written on the matter, but instead you are just regurgitating a doctrine of men you were taught that you chose to believe? The only reason 'you'... would presume the word 'saint' in God's Word doesn't mean Christ's Church is because of the pre-trib rapture doctor's false idea of 'tribulation saints' that they wrongly say means only Jews that come to Jesus during the tribulation. They made that idea up.

    And your just repeating their idea that we in Christ are not appointed to wrath, is a similar matter. That because the pre-trib rapture doctors wrongly teach that 'wrath' from 1 Thess.5 is about Satan's wrath during the tribulation, when Apostle Paul was teaching about the final day of this world with the "sudden destruction" that will come upon the deceived and wicked.

    Thus what you're showing is that you are not... thinking for yourself, but that you instead are allowing yourself to be deceived by those men pushing a pre-trib rapture theory. An actual study of the Bible manuscript reveals you are not... staying with what is written, so there's no use in your pretending to keep to God's Word.
     
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  3. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Well are you simply calling teh angels instructions the words of someone else.

    I do not use Walvoords works for eschatology!

    It is 70 7 sevens the Hebrew shows that.

    As to the misapplication of the "going forth of the Command" I have no idea what you mean by misapplied.

    I await you evidence to support you r allegations of people being liars concerning teh book of Daniel.

    1. Gender in Hebrew does not change definition.

    2. Hebrew calls the 62 weeks (62 7's) just that. Reading a Hebrew bible shows that it is not twisted.

    3. Walvoord uses a literal historical grammatical interpretation so I do not expect many errors, though I could be wrong. I have read many works from HIm and in those he has been spot on.

    4. This unsealing you write about, is that just a mask to use an allegorical method of translating Scripture?

    5. I await evidence and not just allegations thrown out with out the support to back them up!
     
  4. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    FALSE:
    1. As observed by Newton, there is NO PRECEDENT for summing the "seven" with the "sixty-two".

    We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbering used by no nation.

    2. The "sevens" are interpreted as though it were the USUAL Concise Feminine Diction, but Daniel used the UNUSUAL Inconcise Masculine Diction.

    “... as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’”[1]

    “...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keil and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.”[2]

    [1] John Walvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217
    [2] IBID, p. 218

    This Masculine Gender Text is found ONLY in the 9th Chapter of Daniel, and NO WHERE ELSE IN SCRIPTURE including Chapter 10. Thus the 70 "weeks" ≠ 490.

    “[Per Young] This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God. Young goes on to point out that the expression the commandment, which he insists is better translated “a word” (Heb. Dābār; cf. 2Ch 30:5) is also found is Daniel 9:23 for a word from God.”[1]

    [1] John Walvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 224

    Thus the "going forth of the word" is found in Prophetic Scripture for the 1900's, exactly as occurred when the founding fathers of Israel assembled.


    “... Montgomery, for all of his scholarship and knowledge of the history of interpretation, ends up with no reasonable interpretation at all.”[1]

    [1] John Walvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217

    “...the Book of Daniel, where a period of seventy weeks of years, i.e. 490 years, is given as separating the epoch of Nebuchadnezzar from that of the Messiah. As it happens, if to this figure of 390 years [Damascus Document] is added, firstly twenty (during which the ancestors of the Community ‘groped’ for their way until the entry on the scene of the Teacher of Righteousness), then another forty (the time span between the death of the Teacher and the dawn of the messianic epoch), the total stretch of years arrived at is 450. And if to this total is added the duration of the Teacher’s ministry of, say, forty years - a customary round figure - the final result is the classic seventy times seven years.”

    Geza Vermes, The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English, Penguin Putnam Inc., NY, 1997, p. 58


    [Per Montgomery] The history of the exegesis of the 70 Weeks is the Dismal Swamp of O. T. criticism. The difficulties that beset any "rationalistic" treatment of the figures are great enough, but the critics on this side of the fence do not agree among themselves; but the trackless wilderness of assumptions and theories and efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology. ... "

    John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217

    “This prophesy of the seventy sevens is one of the most difficult in the entire OT, and although the interpretations are almost legion, we shall confine ourselves to the discussion of three which may be regarded as of particular importance.”[1]

    Guthrie, D., & J.A. Motyer, New Bible Commentary: Revised, Eerdmans Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, MI, 1970, p. 699

    We can't have this much dissent among the Scholars, and present a "unified" conclusion. They know they don't have the CORRECT answer, but they're the EXPERTS and they have to provide an answer, so they give us their BEST LIE!

    Dan. 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

    Our generation is the only time in world history where men have been able to travel some 60 to 600mph; and the only generation where we have INSTANT KNOWLEDGE LITERALLY at our FINGERTIPS!

    I await your acknowledgement that what I've cited is TRUE! :) -- Most people ignore what they don't want to believe, including the guy who challenged me on the Rev. 12 "SEVEN Diadems" versus the Rev. 13 "TEN Diadems". He couldn't refute my explanation, so he simply ignored what didn't suit his "theology". It's a common trait in the world, but you'd think that Christians pursue the TRUTH, but most only pursue their RELIGION.

    Bobby Jo


    And if I might add one more consideration for you, -- there's a messiah (small "m") after the "seven" and a SECOND messiah (small "m) after the sixty-two -- מָשִׁיחַ (mashiyach) Strongs H4899:

    Lev 4:3
    If the priest that is anointed H4899 do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

    CEV:
    1. 9.25 the Chosen Leader: Or “a chosen leader.” In Hebrew the word “chosen” means “to pour oil (on someone’s head).” In Old Testament times it was the custom to pour oil on a person’s head when that person was chosen to be a priest or a king.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
  5. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    The mystery is finished but that doesn't mean that Jesus returns. And as for REv. 11, that also does not mean that the second half of REv. 19 is taking place.

    YOu need to show why the seven bowls come before the 7th trumpet. Do they happen concurrently? why not just say so instead of having to have people declare they have had a revelation and now know the truth.

    YOU keep accusing me of that and keep failing to provide any biblical evidence to support your accusation against me.

    I would love for you to show me one generally accepted dispensational author of end times who says the Trib saints are only Jews. Every book I read says they are both Jew and gentile!

    No I accept the word saint of others other than the body of Christ because OT righteous are called saints and God promised to keep the church out of the wrath to come!

    Revelation 15
    King James Version

    15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

    I can rattle off over a dozen verses that call the tribulation period a time of Gods Wrath! But I can't find one verse calling hell or the lake of fire Gods Wrath!

    YOU have tribulation saints (the church ) being kept safe during the tribulation according to REv. 3: 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    Now we have not had a world wide trial yet, but we will. god promised the church to be kept from it. Folks like you says that mean god will just keep people safe during the tribulation, but yet millions of believers die in the trib period. Sorry but you can't have both! You can't be kept during the tribulation while many many many will be butchered by the AC and his govt.

    Well lying about "pre-trib doctors" teaching only makes you look smaller than you already make yuourself to be!
    I dare you ti find an accepted author who calls teh tribulation, Satans wrath! No one I know does. We all know th eTribulation time is God pouring His wrath on earth.

    You love making and attacking strawmen don't you!

    Paul said that when people say Peace and safety, then swift and sudden destruction comes. I don't know if you have actuall yread teh book of Revelation, but I know of no one with an IQ higher than shoe size that would call anytime once the trib period starts until teh Lord returns as a time where people would say peace and safety!

    1 Thessalonians 5
    King James Version

    5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    The Day of the Lord is not the return of the Lord! All OT prophecies show it is the period we call the tribulation. That will come suddenly like a thief.

    As for the Lords return, I give you Gods Word for you to consider:

    Matthew 24:23-30
    King James Version

    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    25 Behold, I have told you before.

    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    ALL THE TRIBES SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN- NO THIEF IN THE NIGHT HERE

    LIGHTNING FLASHING- NOT A SECRET EVENT.

    Revelation 1:7
    King James Version

    7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM COME BACK. NO THIEF HERE

    Revelation 19:11-15
    King James Version

    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


    PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THIS IS COMING LIKE A THIEF IN THE NIGHT!!!




     
  6. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    You have a LOT of irrelevant FODDER in your post here, so don't expect me to reply to your irrelevant parts.

    When the mystery of God is finished with the seventh angel sounding, that of course INCLUDES the prophecy of the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ. The Father and The Son do not begin reign over all nations... until the LAST DAY of this world. That means the tribulation has to be OVER when Jesus takes that reign with His elect per the Revelation 11:15-18 Scripture. So you're not arguing with me, you are trying to argue against the written Scripture I showed.

    Your request is irrelevant, since the EVENTS of the 7th Trumpet are the EVENTS of the 7th Vial:

    Rev 11:15
    15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
    KJV

    Rev 11:18
    18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    KJV

    So you are going to tell me that when ALL the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and His Christ, showing Jesus' literal reign over ALL nations, that means the great tribulation still hadn't happened yet??? Common sense shows any tribulation by Satan has to be over, done with, by that 7th Trumpet event! You simply are not thinking for yourself and not heeding what is actually written there in God's Word.



    Rev 16:12-17
    12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
    13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
    14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
    15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
    16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
    17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, 'It is done.'
    KJV


    There it is, "It is done" when that 7th Vial is poured out. That battle of Armageddon is the FINAL DAY of this present world when Jesus comes to gather His faithful saints on earth. That is why He is still warning His Church there on that 6th Vial period of Rev.16:15.

    I think that's plenty enough Scripture proof that what you're saying doesn't hold a drop of water.
     
  7. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    So then show how and why the seven vials occur before the 7 trumpets and why they are written after the seven trumpets.

    Well at leas now you are having the vials occur after the sounding of the 7th trumpet. I do not have any problem with that, if you are saying teh 7th trumpet introduces the 7 last plagues after its sounding.

    This places the mid trib events after the trump, the global dictatorship of the AC and his all out war against Christians and Jews after teh 7th trump sounds, and the great tribulation occuring and the return of Jesus all after teh 7th trump. IF you agree thse events run 3 1/2 years then I can say OK.

    Actually you are saying exactly what I say. It takes time to gather the armies of the world to the Valley of Jezreel (armageddon) to fight against the Lord And while the armies are being marshalled together to fight the Lord when He returns, the events of Rev. 17&18 happen., teh church weds Jesus and then the Lord returns! Just like the bible shows in that order.
     
  8. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    You asked me that in your previous post, and I answered it in my post #146. Didn't you read it?

    The order the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are written in is not perfectly sequential. That is one of the mistakes in study of our Lord Jesus' Book of Revelation that has misled many brethren. The Revelation events are only about 7 main Signs of the end, the Signs which Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. The very last Sign He gave is that is of His 2nd coming and gathering of His saints and end of this present world. The Revelation events are simply expansions of those same 7 Signs. Learn the Signs in His Olivet discourse and you'll start seeing the true order of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials.
     
  9. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    Well, I PROVIDED the "evidence" you asked for (Post #144), -- but you didn't reply in-kind. So either you're VERY BUSY, or you're a HYPOCRITE.

    Please choose one! :)
    Bobby Jo
     
  10. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Well no you didn't answer it in post 146. YOu just quoted scriptures but gave no proof.

    Well having taught the olivet discourse for over 2.5 decades I am familiar with them.

    It is easy just to say that the seals trumpets and vials are not sequential- but where did you get this knowledge that nearly all don't have? Why is your reordering of the Revelation more authoratative than others?

    A serious question to ask you. Where do you place the events of Luke 21:20-24?
     
  11. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Well teh arrogance aside from you. I did not see this post (my bad) I shall read and respond! So your presumption of me being hypocritical is very very presumptious? You do know that is sin don't you? My choice is option 3, I just missed this post.
     
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  12. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! I'll look forward to your thoughts.

    Bobby Jo

    PS Most people run from a conversation at this point, knowing that they can't refute the evidence, so they choose to LEAVE. And YOU are one of the FEW who take the discussion to the next level. So I appreciate your time and consideration!
     
  13. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Well you will learn I am like an alligator. Once I bite on an topic, my grip is tenacious. I cherish deep debate. As proverbs says, it is "iron sharpening iron"!
     
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  14. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    You, my friend, are a RARE BREED. As proposed, MOST make their uninformed and indefensible assertions and the run and hide behind mama's apron.

    And so you know, my wife had difficulty getting a prescription from her Doctor. So I jumped in and called, and then called again, and then called the Answering Service on the weekend, because the receptionist calls went nowhere, but the Office Manager monitors the Answering Service calls. BINGO, -- instant results!

    So my wife was upset that I interjected into her business, -- but afterwards at coffee with her lady friends she boasted that I get RESULTS!​

    And I hope that you'll give me EVERY CHALLENGE you can find, because it's my intent to ANSWER with both Scripture and History.

    With Very Best Regards,
    Bobby Jo
     
  15. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Yes there is historic precedent.

    First let us look at the passage:

    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    This is simple really. From the command by artexerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until Jesus is 483 years. AFAIK all reputable dispensational and allegorical scholars agree. They may argue dates and events but they generally agree on the 483 years.

    From the decree given to Nehemiah by Artexerxes until Jerusalem was fully rebuilt was 49 years or 7 7"s. And Nehemiah and Ezra do describe some of the very troublous times.

    Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum Footsteps of the Messiah p. 194 and "Life of Messiah from a Jewish perspective" vol. 2,3,4.

    And also interesting enough from Artexerxes to the end of the 49 years marks the end of prophecy and prophets in Israel and marks the time known as the 400 silent years until John the Baptist!

    First it is the commentary of Hoffman and Klieforth as discussed in Keil and Delitzch. It is correct that the 70 7's, and 7 7's ,and 62"7's, and one 7 are not specifically designated as years, but history has confirmed them as such. Fruchtenbaum (masters in Hebrew and native speaker) and Keil and Delitzch in their Hebrew commentary show this to be the case.

    As for the masculine/feminine ? that is just a red herring. nouns are always either masculine of feminine. It has no reference to actual gender and does not invoke some mysterious meaning to the 7's. They are just how Hebrew nouns are constructed. as for this concise and inconcise- that is no formal thing, just a comment in that feminine nouns are more easily identified by their endings.


    Hebrew Grammar: Feminine Nouns

    More later.
     
  16. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    Before we "begin" I need to fix the MISTAKES in Scripture:
    1. We need to STRIKE Dan. 12: 4 & 9:
    4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
    ...
    9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

    Everyone knows that Daniel's 9th Chapter applies BEFORE THE INK WAS COMPLETELY DRY, being written some 520 BC. and interpreted some 483 BC. (roughly 50 years between) So we can't have an angel declaring that this is a MODERN Prophecy when we ALL KNOW it's ANCIENT, -- you know, when men were starting to travel some 60 to 600 mph, and at the advent of ancient computers where someone could look on YouTube to fix a chariot hub assembly.
    2. We need to CHANGE the Dan. 9:2 from "Biyn" to "Shama".

    2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived [biyn H995] in the books the number of years which, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.
    Because we KNOW that the "books" which Daniel is referencing is the Book of Jeremiah, we MUST use the ~simple~ "shama", and can't allow any other inference that "biyn" suggests:

    1 Kings 3:9 Give thy servant therefore an understanding [shama H8085] mind to govern thy people, that I may discern between good and evil; for who is able to govern this thy great people?”

    10 It pleased the Lord that Solomon had asked this. 11 And God said to him, “Because you have asked this, and have not asked for yourself long life or riches or the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself understanding [biyn H995] to discern [shama H8085] what is right, 12 behold, I now do according to your word. Behold, I give you a wise and discerning [biyn H995] mind, so that none like you has been before you and none like you shall arise after you.


    Clearly Daniel READ [SHAMA] from the Book of Jeremiah, and this has NO SOLOMON WISDOM to be DISCERNED [BIYN] from any other Cryptic Source in the O.T. Books. So we'll need to FIX that MISTAKE to prevent other people from looking into the Book of Psalms ( -- which has a requisite 70 Chapters -- ) for any SOLUTION.
    3. Verse 25 has another MISTAKE. -- The O.T. NEVER used Capitalization, and the Commentators NEED to Capitalize the word "Messiah". So apparently we'll have to get a DeLorean up to 88 mph so that we can insert Capitalization CERTAINLY in Daniel 9 (and possibly throughout the O.T.) so that the Masoretic Text agrees with the Commentators.

    But it's actually MORE DIFFICULT than that! We'll have to CREATE A NEW WORD SPECIFICALLY for Jesus being the M E S S I A H, -- WITH ALL CAPS. That way we can distinguish between the other 37 instances where מָשִׁיחַ mâshîyach H4899 is used:

    Lev. 4:3 If the priest that is anointed [H4899] do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

    4. Verse 25 is probably the LAST VERSE which needs CORRECTION. Certainly we know that there is NO Scriptural or Societal Precedent for summing "odd numbers" like "seven and sixty-two". Of course, four score and ten; a mile and a quarter; a dozen and a half are LEGITIMATE, but WE MUST convert every citation where there is a "SEVENTY" to SEVEN and SIXTY-THREE.

    Now this may be harder than simply going back in time, because "SEVENTY" is used extensively throughout the O.T., so it'll require MULTIPLE TRIPS to MULTIPLE AUTHORS, and each must change their numerics to agree with the KJV.

    Oops, and we'll also have to BURN all the RSV, MSG, and maybe a few other Versions which present the text which we agree needs to be BANISHED:

    RSV: ... to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat ...

    5. The only remaining issue being how to COUNTER where Daniel INTENTIONALLY used an UNUSUAL MASCULINE GENDER TEXT for the world "weeks", which are the ONLY instances in Scripture including Daniel 10. Now there are TWO Choices we can consider, -- the first is to simply declare the "weeks" as "WEEK OF YEARS"; or if the DeLorean will START, maybe we can convince Daniel to use the Feminine Gender Text. Now Daniel was a DETERMINED MAN, and it may involve breaking both hands so that he can't write, and doing the "dirty work" ourselves. And I'm not opposed to that, but it may take BOTH OF US to hold him down.


    Well, that about sums it up! Are we GOOD to Start now?
    Bobby Jo​
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
  17. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Make all the fibs you want, but I did answer you in my post #146, giving both Scripture 'as proof' along with paragraph explanations. You simply didn't read it, and it's obvious you have no intention to read it, but instead are here to cause strife against The Word of God and Christians.
     
  18. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    Actually I think we are good to finish nw!

    So you feel the need to edit SCripture? What is your authority? what is your evidence that the inspired texts are incorrect? How many other verses throughout Scripture are incorrect? How can yo ustop someone else from saying some word or verse is wrong?

    This isn't a can of worms you opened, but a can of blue whales!

    As for Daniel happening, the first parts up until vse 19. Dan 9 was written near the end of of the 70 years Israel was to go into captivity. ( A year for every Sabbath they did not observe in their covenanted land)

    But the rest is a future prophecy.

    As for you assertion that Daniel wasn't understood until 483 B.C.- you need more than you just saying so. some Jewish historian would add credence to your hypothesis.

    As for Biyn and sham- this is pure hubris on your part. Until you can prove that either the translators re wrote the hebrew/aramiac texts or that Daniel was misled by god- there is no point in discussing. YOu can draw your own conclusions based upon your own biases, but you need more than your say so to discuss intelligently.

    but let me ask you a question. Do you believe this:

    2 Timothy 3:16
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
     
  19. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Active Member

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    It is you caught in a lie! I did read your post. All I see is your declarations and then you post a Scripture. Matter of fact, I have read that post now 3 times!

    Well do all Christians agree with you? I take it by the implication of your accusation against me you do not consider me a Christian. You are guilty of bearing false witness.

    In you rpost in which you falsely accused me of not reading you said this:

    So I have asked several times, when do the events of teh first 6 vials take place and what is your rationale to place them ahead of any trumpets?

    I asked you if Rev. 15 occurs before REv. 11:15-19, what I get is you calling me a liar!

    Again, you said this in the post you falsely accused me of not reading:

    Actually Gods Word clearly and unambiguously shows that the 7 year tribulation and 3 1/2 year great tribulation are the time of Gods Wrath poured out on the earth and not Satan's.

    I take the bible at its normal reading! You have failed to show why we should believe that the Book of Revelation is all jumbled up chronologically and why your opinion of its correct order ( or as you and myriads before you say, God's order) is more valid then the Word of God as it is written.
     
  20. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    I'm simply following YOUR LEAD. I thought WE WERE IN AGREEMENT, -- after all it's YOU who said:

    Per: #1. Use an Ancient Fuifillment, -- in violation of 12:4 & 9.

    Per: #2. ... to disregard the Literal "shama"/"biyn", and the associated prospect that the Psalms was the Reference for "perceived in the books", -- which IS the Reference Book where we FIND the "going forth of the word".

    Per: #3. ... that the "messiah" (small "m") was Jesus, -- when it's ANY King or Priest.

    Per: #4. ... the text "seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks", -- which combines two distinct numbers as though it were intended as ONE VALUE of "sixty-nine".

    Per: #5. ... to disregard the Literal Masculine/Feminine distinctions -- as though a "cool" car suggests you need a hat, coat, and gloves to drive.


    I'm not doing ANYTHING that YOU DIDN'T ALREADY AGREE WITH. All I'm doing is pointing out YOUR Scriptural Dishonesty for what it is, -- DISHONEST --.

    Now, if you're as "determined" as you indicated, PLEASE DEFEND why YOU butcher Scripture. But don't WHITEWASH the LITERAL TEXT. Either obey what is says, or BLAME GOD, because HE Wrote It!

    :)
    Bobby Jo
     
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