Death Penalty

[veteran]

How many here actually realize that God's commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" of Exo.20 is about murder homicide? I still had to explain that meant murder to some when they took it to mean any killing period. "Do you kill chickens for food, or do you murder them?", I had to ask.

If it's mainly the idea of killing that many have a problem with, stay out of the military and law enforcement, don't go hunting, become a vegetarian and don't kill cows or chickens either, because if you eat animal meat then your guilty of killing too. And don't even kill bugs, but let them have their life, since they're God's little creatures too! Maybe Buddhism would be more to one's liking if they feel that way.

I can just about guarantee with everyone here, if a murderer broke into your home, threatened to murder you and your family, and a policeman came to your rescue and shot and killed the murderer, you would thank that policeman for saving your lives. You wouldn't say thank you for killing that murderer who almost killed you, but that's what the policeman did... for you. He risked his own life... for you.

During the Vietnam war, when many of our U.S. soldiers returned, they got spit upon and called baby killers by many of their own U.S. citizens for serving their country. The Communist's propaganda was so deep in the minds of young people in the U.S. then, that they hated U.S. servicemen and policemen, etc., and rioted in the streets like little spoiled school children that had their candy taken away.

I'd have no problem at all pulling the switch on a first degree murderer who kidnaps a little child and brutally rapes that child to death. I'd have no problem pulling the switch on a robber who holds up a convenience store, and murders the clerk in cold blood. I'd have no problem pulling the switch on a spy against the United States that cause U.S. operatives to be exposed and executed in foreign countries, or on a subversive rebel against the United States clearly convicted of trying to overthrow the United States, or on a terrorist convicted of murdering the thousands that died in the twin towers.

Pacifism and disarmament is exactly what is being preached in the Churches today, and those who heed that junk from our enemies deserve to have their homes and families ransacked by thieves and murderers, and not have a safe place on the street to walk.

 

[Groundzero]

How many here actually realize that God's commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" of Exo.20 is about murder homicide? I still had to explain that meant murder to some when they took it to mean any killing period. "Do you kill chickens for food, or do you murder them?", I had to ask.

If it's mainly the idea of killing that many have a problem with, stay out of the military and law enforcement, don't go hunting, become a vegetarian and don't kill cows or chickens either, because if you eat animal meat then your guilty of killing too. And don't even kill bugs, but let them have their life, since they're God's little creatures too! Maybe Buddhism would be more to one's liking if they feel that way.

I can just about guarantee with everyone here, if a murderer broke into your home, threatened to murder you and your family, and a policeman came to your rescue and shot and killed the murderer, you would thank that policeman for saving your lives. You wouldn't say thank you for killing that murderer who almost killed you, but that's what the policeman did... for you. He risked his own life... for you.

During the Vietnam war, when many of our U.S. soldiers returned, they got spit upon and called baby killers by many of their own U.S. citizens for serving their country. The Communist's propaganda was so deep in the minds of young people in the U.S. then, that they hated U.S. servicemen and policemen, etc., and rioted in the streets like little spoiled school children that had their candy taken away.

I'd have no problem at all pulling the switch on a first degree murderer who kidnaps a little child and brutally rapes that child to death. I'd have no problem pulling the switch on a robber who holds up a convenience store, and murders the clerk in cold blood. I'd have no problem pulling the switch on a spy against the United States that cause U.S. operatives to be exposed and executed in foreign countries, or on a subversive rebel against the United States clearly convicted of trying to overthrow the United States, or on a terrorist convicted of murdering the thousands that died in the twin towers.

Pacifism and disarmament is exactly what is being preached in the Churches today, and those who heed that junk from our enemies deserve to have their homes and families ransacked by thieves and murderers, and not have a safe place on the street to walk.

I fully agree with you. Here in Australia, you aren't allowed to own guns except with a license. So guess what? Now a robber or someone can come into your home armed, and they don't have to worry about getting shot anymore! So much for those old movies where you see the homeowner with their gun slung over their shoulder! We are trying to bring peace, but peace will never come unless we are willing to fight for it. If a robber came into my home, and I had killed him in defence, I would not have any guilt over it. The only thing I would feel is regret for the fact that he never got a chance to remedy his error. I recently read a statement by a murderer, and you know what he said? "I wish that I would be executed." This man realised the crime he had committed was serious. I believe that every person realises it. So what are we going to do? pat them on the back and say, oh well, you made a mistake, but don't worry, we'll let go free after three years in a prison with xbox, tv, good food, and every other comfort except freedom to go out! Wow, no wonder we are having a meltdown of society!

 

[discipleHelovestoo]

David and Moses were both murderers. Cain, the first murderer was marked by Go for protection. That's in the Old Testament. Only God can see the heart - He is the only One who can judge accurately and sentence to death without error.



Romans 12:17 KJVR

(17) Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.



1 Thessalonians 5:15 KJVR

(15) See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.



John 8:4-11 KJVR

(4) They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

(5) Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

(6) This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

(7) So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

(8) And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

(9) And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

(10) When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

(11) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. (emphasis added)

GLY!!!

 

[veteran]

I fully agree with you. Here in Australia, you aren't allowed to own guns except with a license. So guess what? Now a robber or someone can come into your home armed, and they don't have to worry about getting shot anymore! So much for those old movies where you see the homeowner with their gun slung over their shoulder! We are trying to bring peace, but peace will never come unless we are willing to fight for it. If a robber came into my home, and I had killed him in defence, I would not have any guilt over it. The only thing I would feel is regret for the fact that he never got a chance to remedy his error. I recently read a statement by a murderer, and you know what he said? "I wish that I would be executed." This man realised the crime he had committed was serious. I believe that every person realises it. So what are we going to do? pat them on the back and say, oh well, you made a mistake, but don't worry, we'll let go free after three years in a prison with xbox, tv, good food, and every other comfort except freedom to go out! Wow, no wonder we are having a meltdown of society!

Maybe I should bring up Luke 22 here also, where our Lord Jesus told His disciples before sending them out to preach The Gospel to go buy a sword if they didn't yet have one?

Lot of brethren just can't understand that when executing a murderer, that person is not dead forever and gone, yet. And nor is the victim of the murderer, for Abel's blood cried to God from the ground. God is waiting on the murderer to appear before His Throne, and the murderer will. What our Heavenly Father decides to do with that murderer after that point is not up to us. It is not up to 'us' to judge a murderer to condemnation into the "lake of fire". But it is... up to God's people to judge a murderer according to the authority that God gives His people, and to put evil away from among us.

Pacifism in today's Churches is not from God. It is from the enemies of God who do not want 'us' to pull the plug on any of the evil "workers of iniquity" and send them to God Who is waiting on them. And the one's I'm talking about pulling the plug on are the truly evil ones that would rape a little child to death, murder in cold hard hatred blood, etc. I'm not talking about those manslayers who get in a bar fight and accidently kill someone. I'm talking about truly ruthless sickos that act no better than mad rabid dogs who deserve to be put down.

But do you see how today's society LOVES murderers? Don't people just love filthy movies about Hannibal Lecter and the Hollywood devil's horror movies and such? "Oh, that's just entertainment," some idiot would say. No, it's called conditioning towards acceptance of evil, so as to allow it to keep existing! Sadly I know the state of mind many have towards accepting evil must be, for it was foretold in prophecy of God's Word. But it doesn't mean we have to agree with it, nor like it!

Does this mean 'we' don't have compassion for rabid dogs that we know have to be put down? Won't God be sad when He will bring the "lake of fire" to destroy the wicked in final? Afterall, those are His children He created too.

Something else that bites at me, are those who try to use Moses and David as guilty of murder to compare them to rabid dogs that would rape a little child to death, just to keep pushing Pacifist dogma to allow rabid dogs to runs on our streets! I ain't so sure that what Moses did was truly murder, but manslaughter, since he did it in defense of his Hebrew brothers that were being beaten by the Egyptian. Concerning David having Uriah the Hittite put in front of battle in hopes that he would be killed so as to take his wife Bathsheba, that was a sin, including a sin of lust. And God took David's first son as penalty for it.

I recall years ago south Florida had a major crime problem, and it was when hand gun carry laws weren't there. Then hand gun carry laws were passed and we started hearing of robbers mugging people at airports, which is a no brainer, for the thieves knew passengers weren't coming out of the airports armed. I saw a show like Face the Nation where the show host interviewed Sarah Brady about south Florida's crime rate suddenly dropping because citizens allowed concealed carry permits, and she flat lied and denied that hand gun carry laws had anything to do with it. She even stated the gun carry laws made the crime rate go up instead!

Truth of the matter is that criminals want easy pickin's. They don't want to mess with someone who might be carrying a weapon to protect themselves and knows how to use it. Our Lord Jesus knew this too, which is why He commanded His disciples to go buy a sword...

Luke 22:35-36
35 And He said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said He unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
(KJV)

 

[Groundzero]

Maybe I should bring up Luke 22 here also, where our Lord Jesus told His disciples before sending them out to preach The Gospel to go buy a sword if they didn't yet have one?

Lot of brethren just can't understand that when executing a murderer, that person is not dead forever and gone, yet. And nor is the victim of the murderer, for Abel's blood cried to God from the ground. God is waiting on the murderer to appear before His Throne, and the murderer will. What our Heavenly Father decides to do with that murderer after that point is not up to us. It is not up to 'us' to judge a murderer to condemnation into the "lake of fire". But it is... up to God's people to judge a murderer according to the authority that God gives His people, and to put evil away from among us.

Pacifism in today's Churches is not from God. It is from the enemies of God who do not want 'us' to pull the plug on any of the evil "workers of iniquity" and send them to God Who is waiting on them. And the one's I'm talking about pulling the plug on are the truly evil ones that would rape a little child to death, murder in cold hard hatred blood, etc. I'm not talking about those manslayers who get in a bar fight and accidently kill someone. I'm talking about truly ruthless sickos that act no better than mad rabid dogs who deserve to be put down.

But do you see how today's society LOVES murderers? Don't people just love filthy movies about Hannibal Lecter and the Hollywood devil's horror movies and such? "Oh, that's just entertainment," some idiot would say. No, it's called conditioning towards acceptance of evil, so as to allow it to keep existing! Sadly I know the state of mind many have towards accepting evil must be, for it was foretold in prophecy of God's Word. But it doesn't mean we have to agree with it, nor like it!

Does this mean 'we' don't have compassion for rabid dogs that we know have to be put down? Won't God be sad when He will bring the "lake of fire" to destroy the wicked in final? Afterall, those are His children He created too.

Something else that bites at me, are those who try to use Moses and David as guilty of murder to compare them to rabid dogs that would rape a little child to death, just to keep pushing Pacifist dogma to allow rabid dogs to runs on our streets! I ain't so sure that what Moses did was truly murder, but manslaughter, since he did it in defense of his Hebrew brothers that were being beaten by the Egyptian. Concerning David having Uriah the Hittite put in front of battle in hopes that he would be killed so as to take his wife Bathsheba, that was a sin, including a sin of lust. And God took David's first son as penalty for it.

I recall years ago south Florida had a major crime problem, and it was when hand gun carry laws weren't there. Then hand gun carry laws were passed and we started hearing of robbers mugging people at airports, which is a no brainer, for the thieves knew passengers weren't coming out of the airports armed. I saw a show like Face the Nation where the show host interviewed Sarah Brady about south Florida's crime rate suddenly dropping because citizens allowed concealed carry permits, and she flat lied and denied that hand gun carry laws had anything to do with it. She even stated the gun carry laws made the crime rate go up instead!

Truth of the matter is that criminals want easy pickin's. They don't want to mess with someone who might be carrying a weapon to protect themselves and knows how to use it. Our Lord Jesus knew this too, which is why He commanded His disciples to go buy a sword...

Luke 22:35-36
35 And He said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said He unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
(KJV)

I can't agree with you more. I guess I haven't been able to state it effectively, but I think you just did. I'm not advocating that whoever kills someone is executed. I don't agree though that someone can murder and not pay for what they did. When I say murder, I mean fully intentional. Interesting you brought up that verse. Also, when Jesus was in the Garden and Peter cut off the servant's ear, Jesus never reprimanded him for carrying a sword (the very fact Peter had a sword implies that Jesus didn't forbid them carrying swords, and I don't think it was for hunting, but for self-defence!). He reprimanded him for trying to prevent what must happen, and Jesus had already told him that he would have to die.
Our society no longer knows what it is to take responsibility for what they do. If you kill someone intentionally, you must pay back what you have unlawfully taken. A life is priceless. No amount of years in jail can atone for it, neither can money. Please note, I am not talking about war. We have a totally different scenario there. I am referring to where a person knowingly kills someone. In reference to the 'mentally ill'. The woman I referred to, was not so ill that she didn't know that she burnt her sons to death. She knew it alright (the reason she burnt them to death was so they could go to heaven! How nice of mummy.). Sometimes, i suspect that people do such unfathomable things that they are classified as mentally ill. Of course they are mentally ill! No one who is thinking level will go and murder someone!

 

[discipleHelovestoo]

Maybe I should bring up Luke 22 here also, where our Lord Jesus told His disciples before sending them out to preach The Gospel to go buy a sword if they didn't yet have one?

Lot of brethren just can't understand that when executing a murderer, that person is not dead forever and gone, yet. And nor is the victim of the murderer, for Abel's blood cried to God from the ground. God is waiting on the murderer to appear before His Throne, and the murderer will. What our Heavenly Father decides to do with that murderer after that point is not up to us. It is not up to 'us' to judge a murderer to condemnation into the "lake of fire". But it is... up to God's people to judge a murderer according to the authority that God gives His people, and to put evil away from among us.

Pacifism in today's Churches is not from God. It is from the enemies of God who do not want 'us' to pull the plug on any of the evil "workers of iniquity" and send them to God Who is waiting on them. And the one's I'm talking about pulling the plug on are the truly evil ones that would rape a little child to death, murder in cold hard hatred blood, etc. I'm not talking about those manslayers who get in a bar fight and accidently kill someone. I'm talking about truly ruthless sickos that act no better than mad rabid dogs who deserve to be put down.

But do you see how today's society LOVES murderers? Don't people just love filthy movies about Hannibal Lecter and the Hollywood devil's horror movies and such? "Oh, that's just entertainment," some idiot would say. No, it's called conditioning towards acceptance of evil, so as to allow it to keep existing! Sadly I know the state of mind many have towards accepting evil must be, for it was foretold in prophecy of God's Word. But it doesn't mean we have to agree with it, nor like it!

Does this mean 'we' don't have compassion for rabid dogs that we know have to be put down? Won't God be sad when He will bring the "lake of fire" to destroy the wicked in final? Afterall, those are His children He created too.

Something else that bites at me, are those who try to use Moses and David as guilty of murder to compare them to rabid dogs that would rape a little child to death, just to keep pushing Pacifist dogma to allow rabid dogs to runs on our streets! I ain't so sure that what Moses did was truly murder, but manslaughter, since he did it in defense of his Hebrew brothers that were being beaten by the Egyptian. Concerning David having Uriah the Hittite put in front of battle in hopes that he would be killed so as to take his wife Bathsheba, that was a sin, including a sin of lust. And God took David's first son as penalty for it.

I recall years ago south Florida had a major crime problem, and it was when hand gun carry laws weren't there. Then hand gun carry laws were passed and we started hearing of robbers mugging people at airports, which is a no brainer, for the thieves knew passengers weren't coming out of the airports armed. I saw a show like Face the Nation where the show host interviewed Sarah Brady about south Florida's crime rate suddenly dropping because citizens allowed concealed carry permits, and she flat lied and denied that hand gun carry laws had anything to do with it. She even stated the gun carry laws made the crime rate go up instead!

Truth of the matter is that criminals want easy pickin's. They don't want to mess with someone who might be carrying a weapon to protect themselves and knows how to use it. Our Lord Jesus knew this too, which is why He commanded His disciples to go buy a sword...

Luke 22:35-36
35 And He said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said He unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
(KJV)

Luke 22:36 KJV+

(36) ThenG3767 saidG2036 he unto them,G846 ButG235 now,G3568 he that hathG2192 a purse,G905 let him takeG142 it, andG2532 likewiseG3668 his(G2532) scrip:G4082 andG2532 he that hathG2192 noG3361 sword, let him sellG4453 hisG848 garment,G2440 andG2532 buyG59 one.(G3162)

do you notice that there is no strong's reference for the word 'sword' in this verse?

Matthew 26:52 KJVR

(52) Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. (emphasis added)

Is Jesus talking to a 'cold blooded murderer' here? according to John 18:10, it is Peter who the Lord is talking to, who just cut off a man's ear in defense of Jesus. why didn't Jesus acknowledge that He Himself had told Peter to bring a sword? did Jesus say "all those who take the sword except to execute a murderer shall perish by the sword'?

one scripture taken out of context is poor justification for the death penalty.

i am not a pacifist; when the last day comes i'll be more than eager to fight the Lord's enemy's to their eternal death. I am a Christian; a 'little Christ' - and other than this questionable interpretation of Luke 22:36, i know of no other scripture that in any way indicates that Jesus is advocating killing anyone - even murderers. if you know of scriptures that justify your interpretation of Luke 22:36, please post them (Mat 18:15,16).

Exodus 2:11-12 KJVR

(11) And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting a Hebrew, one of his brethren.

(12) And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.

Moses was careful to be sure to take the time to see that no one was looking before he slew the egyptian - while the man he 'avenged' was being beaten - is this how a righteous man protects someone? why did he bury the man in the sand - do people who kill in defense of others hide the body of the slain? Moses was still a prince of Egypt when this happened, he didn't need to cover up the slaying of this man if his motive was truly right - he knew in his heart he was wrong, and that's why he tried to cover it up.

2 Samuel 12:9 KJVR

(9) Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

This is Nathan repeating what God had said to him - if God said that David Killed Uriah, then David wasn't just 'in hopes' that Uriah would die.

2 Samuel 12:14 KJVR

(14) Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.(emphasis added)


Did God say the He would kill the child? Did God say when the child would die? Would this still be true if the child had lived a full life? what was David's reaction?

2 Samuel 12:22 KJVR

(22) And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?(emphasis added)


was David in faith? was he believing in God's goodness to heal the child? was David (a descendant of Abraham) resting in the promise of Abraham as Abraham did when he was to offer Isaac?

Hebrews 11:17-19 KJVR

(17) By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

(18) Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

(19) Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. (emphasis added)


David, as a descendant of Abraham, also had this promise from God - but he didn't react in faith as Abraham did...

Mark 9:23 KJVR

(23) Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.(emphasis added)


This is what Jesus said to another father...

In 1Samuel 12:9, did God mention Uriah or Bathsheba? What did God say was the evil that David had done? ' thou despised the commandment of the LORD'

as far as protecting my home is concerned, i will definitely resist someone who threatens the safety of those in my home, and do so with deadly force if necessary - but not with the intent of taking their life. carrying a gun and being willing to use it in self defense is far short of intending to kill someone under the excuse of self defense.

your response overlooks the most important truth about the death penalty:

1 Samuel 16:7 KJVR(7) But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

when you sentence a man to death, you elevate yourself to God's equal by making this judgment. how can you overlook this?

God loves you just as much no matter what you do or think - but this line of thinking will definately affect how much you love Him

 

[veteran]

Luke 22:36
36 Then said He unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword (machaira), let him sell his garment, and buy one.
(KJV)

Luke 22:38
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords (machaira). And He said unto them, It is enough.
(KJV)

Greek machaira - a knife, i.e. dirk


Same word as this...

Matt 26:51
51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword (machaira), and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
(KJV)

 

[veteran]

Luke 22:36 KJV+

(36) ThenG3767 saidG2036 he unto them,G846 ButG235 now,G3568 he that hathG2192 a purse,G905 let him takeG142 it, andG2532 likewiseG3668 his(G2532) scrip:G4082 andG2532 he that hathG2192 noG3361 sword, let him sellG4453 hisG848 garment,G2440 andG2532 buyG59 one.(G3162)

do you notice that there is no strong's reference for the word 'sword' in this verse?

You must be using one of those Revised Strong's Concordances. See Strong's 3163 machairan - sword or knife, i.e. a weapon.

Matthew 26:52 KJVR

(52) Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. (emphasis added)

Is Jesus talking to a 'cold blooded murderer' here? according to John 18:10, it is Peter who the Lord is talking to, who just cut off a man's ear in defense of Jesus. why didn't Jesus acknowledge that He Himself had told Peter to bring a sword? did Jesus say "all those who take the sword except to execute a murderer shall perish by the sword'?

If that isn't a blatant attempt to change the context of Scripture, then I don't know what is.

Why didn't Jesus acknowledge that He told Peter to wear a sword? Your argument defies common sense, because the question the Pacifist ought be asking is why did Christ allow... Peter to carry around a sword. The fact that Christ allowed Peter to carry that sword is what the Pacifists need to answer. Because Christ allowed it reveals we are allowed one too.

Peter was a Zealot, a military type sect of the Jews. So no doubt he was quicker to draw the sword on occasions like that than others. Just slicing off a man's ear shows he was pretty good with it too. And that... was the point our Lord was making about those who live by the sword will die by the sword, i.e., like the life of a Zealot. Doesn't mean those called to be soldiers that believe on Jesus aren't saved. Nor does it mean we are not allowed to carry a weapon to defend ourselves. The American Constitutional fathers knew this from The Bible too, which is why they wrote the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, an Amendment that Communists-Socialists-Internationalists are constantly trying to make an end around.

one scripture taken out of context is poor justification for the death penalty.

i am not a pacifist; when the last day comes i'll be more than eager to fight the Lord's enemy's to their eternal death. I am a Christian; a 'little Christ' - and other than this questionable interpretation of Luke 22:36, i know of no other scripture that in any way indicates that Jesus is advocating killing anyone - even murderers. if you know of scriptures that justify your interpretation of Luke 22:36, please post them (Mat 18:15,16).

You sound just like a Pacifist. And you're definitely not even a "little Christ"; so scrap that teaching from false prophets, for there is only One Jesus Christ Who was without sin, and we ain't Him, nor can we ever be our own 'Christ'. (Becoming 'a Christ' is a New Age teaching by the way.)

Exodus 2:11-12 KJVR

(11) And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting a Hebrew, one of his brethren.

(12) And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.

Moses was careful to be sure to take the time to see that no one was looking before he slew the egyptian - while the man he 'avenged' was being beaten - is this how a righteous man protects someone? why did he bury the man in the sand - do people who kill in defense of others hide the body of the slain? Moses was still a prince of Egypt when this happened, he didn't need to cover up the slaying of this man if his motive was truly right - he knew in his heart he was wrong, and that's why he tried to cover it up.

Can you find anywhere in the Scripture where God held Moses accountable for that as 'murder'? What do you think the Egyptians would have done to Moses, regardless of it being self-defense or not? They knew the Egyptians would execute him. So he hid the bodies. No brainer. I believe Moses' passion was stirred up to come to the aid of his brethren. Stephen had this take on the matter...

Acts 7:24-25
24 And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:
25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.
KJV

2 Samuel 12:9 KJVR

(9) Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

This is Nathan repeating what God had said to him - if God said that David Killed Uriah, then David wasn't just 'in hopes' that Uriah would die.

Yep, and God punished David for it.

2 Samuel 12:14 KJVR

(14) Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.(emphasis added)


Did God say the He would kill the child? Did God say when the child would die? Would this still be true if the child had lived a full life? what was David's reaction?

2 Samuel 12:22 KJVR

(22) And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?(emphasis added)


was David in faith? was he believing in God's goodness to heal the child? was David (a descendant of Abraham) resting in the promise of Abraham as Abraham did when he was to offer Isaac?

Verse 14 shows God took David's son as punishment. And what father wouldn't pray and fast to God in hopes He would forgive and change His mind? But once the child died, that was that. David stopped mourning at that point, which amazed the paid mourners who thought his mourning should have been greater after the child died.

Hebrews 11:17-19 KJVR

(17) By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

(18) Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

(19) Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. (emphasis added)


David, as a descendant of Abraham, also had this promise from God - but he didn't react in faith as Abraham did...

Irrelevant. Is that something you heard at a one-verse sermon? God had no intention of letting Abraham sacrifice his son Isaac. It was a test of faith only. Not associated with David's sin, not at all. To know that David had great faith, all one need do is read the Psalms.

Mark 9:23 KJVR

(23) Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.(emphasis added)


This is what Jesus said to another father...

In 1Samuel 12:9, did God mention Uriah or Bathsheba? What did God say was the evil that David had done? ' thou despised the commandment of the LORD'

Yep, David killed out of lust for a woman. I never denied that.

as far as protecting my home is concerned, i will definitely resist someone who threatens the safety of those in my home, and do so with deadly force if necessary - but not with the intent of taking their life. carrying a gun and being willing to use it in self defense is far short of intending to kill someone under the excuse of self defense.

There's no such thing as your idea of an excuse for self-defense. You're talking like those willing to carry a weapon for self-defense are a bunch right-wing jack-booted thugs. That's defaming your 2nd Amendment Constitutional right, if you're a U.S. citizen. What you're talking about is a vigilante that purposefully goes out looking for opportunities for self-defense just so they can kill someone. I don't know anyone who hand carries that thinks like that. Not saying they don't exist, but I don't know any.

your response overlooks the most important truth about the death penalty:

1 Samuel 16:7 KJVR(7) But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

when you sentence a man to death, you elevate yourself to God's equal by making this judgment. how can you overlook this?

Uh... baloney. Pacifist pro-Communist baloney even! Those who have the 'authority' to assign and execute the death penalty receive that authority from God Himself. That's why God's law in that still exists among our Christian society. And I hear in Texas they put death-row inmates on the fast-track.

God loves you just as much no matter what you do or think - but this line of thinking will definately affect how much you love Him

Your line of thinking already has shown how you'd rather allow murderers to run on our streets, simply because you don't have the intestinal fortitude to obey God's laws about it. That is trying to place yourself above God, in His place even! It is to annul His commandments and judgments.

 

[Groundzero]

You must be using one of those Revised Strong's Concordances. See Strong's 3163 machairan - sword or knife, i.e. a weapon.




If that isn't a blatant attempt to change the context of Scripture, then I don't know what is.

Why didn't Jesus acknowledge that He told Peter to wear a sword? Your argument defies common sense, because the question the Pacifist ought be asking is why did Christ allow... Peter to carry around a sword. The fact that Christ allowed Peter to carry that sword is what the Pacifists need to answer. Because Christ allowed it reveals we are allowed one too.

Peter was a Zealot, a military type sect of the Jews. So no doubt he was quicker to draw the sword on occasions like that than others. Just slicing off a man's ear shows he was pretty good with it too. And that... was the point our Lord was making about those who live by the sword will die by the sword, i.e., like the life of a Zealot. Doesn't mean those called to be soldiers that believe on Jesus aren't saved. Nor does it mean we are not allowed to carry a weapon to defend ourselves. The American Constitutional fathers knew this from The Bible too, which is why they wrote the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, an Amendment that Communists-Socialists-Internationalists are constantly trying to make an end around.





You sound just like a Pacifist. And you're definitely not even a "little Christ"; so scrap that teaching from false prophets, for there is only One Jesus Christ Who was without sin, and we ain't Him, nor can we ever be our own 'Christ'. (Becoming 'a Christ' is a New Age teaching by the way.)





Can you find anywhere in the Scripture where God held Moses accountable for that as 'murder'? What do you think the Egyptians would have done to Moses, regardless of it being self-defense or not? They knew the Egyptians would execute him. So he hid the bodies. No brainer. I believe Moses' passion was stirred up to come to the aid of his brethren. Stephen had this take on the matter...

Acts 7:24-25
24 And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:
25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.
KJV





Yep, and God punished David for it.




Verse 14 shows God took David's son as punishment. And what father wouldn't pray and fast to God in hopes He would forgive and change His mind? But once the child died, that was that. David stopped mourning at that point, which amazed the paid mourners who thought his mourning should have been greater after the child died.





Irrelevant. Is that something you heard at a one-verse sermon? God had no intention of letting Abraham sacrifice his son Isaac. It was a test of faith only. Not associated with David's sin, not at all. To know that David had great faith, all one need do is read the Psalms.




[/b]Yep, David killed out of lust for a woman. I never denied that.




There's no such thing as your idea of an excuse for self-defense. You're talking like those willing to carry a weapon for self-defense are a bunch right-wing jack-booted thugs. That's defaming your 2nd Amendment Constitutional right, if you're a U.S. citizen. What you're talking about is a vigilante that purposefully goes out looking for opportunities for self-defense just so they can kill someone. I don't know anyone who hand carries that thinks like that. Not saying they don't exist, but I don't know any.





Uh... baloney. Pacifist pro-Communist baloney even! Those who have the 'authority' to assign and execute the death penalty receive that authority from God Himself. That's why God's law in that still exists among our Christian society. And I hear in Texas they put death-row inmates on the fast-track.




Your line of thinking already has shown how you'd rather allow murderers to run on our streets, simply because you don't have the intestinal fortitude to obey God's laws about it. That is trying to place yourself above God, in His place even! It is to annul His commandments and judgments.

I know that I have rarely fully agreed with you

, but in this case, you have done an excellent point by point answer which well backed with reasoning. There is a reason for why the punishment for murder was death. On that note, God still thinks the same as he did back then. Why all of a sudden can we murder without punishment?

I think veteran has replied to the objections very effectively.

Fully agree with you, veteran.

 

[Groundzero]

(52) Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. (emphasis added)

Is Jesus talking to a 'cold blooded murderer' here? according to John 18:10, it is Peter who the Lord is talking to, who just cut off a man's ear in defense of Jesus. why didn't Jesus acknowledge that He Himself had told Peter to bring a sword? did Jesus say "all those who take the sword except to execute a murderer shall perish by the sword'?

one scripture taken out of context is poor justification for the death penalty.


i am not a pacifist; when the last day comes i'll be more than eager to fight the Lord's enemy's to their eternal death. I am a Christian; a 'little Christ' - and other than this questionable interpretation of Luke 22:36, i know of no other scripture that in any way indicates that Jesus is advocating killing anyone - even murderers. if you know of scriptures that justify your interpretation of Luke 22:36, please post them (Mat 18:15,16).

There are two more points to consider here. One, How shall they that take the sword perish by the sword except someone else takes up a sword? Two, if that is the case, how is it that David was a man after God's own heart? Also, he never died by the sword.

As for the 'one' scripture taken out of context, may I remind the readers that the REASON that the death penalty was instituted in the Western countries for murder is because they BASED their law on the Scripture!

According to Paul, the Law was made for those who transgress.

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

My dear friend, the last days are coming upon as fast, and the reason why they are coming is because so many Christians have just sat back and stopped fighting. The MAJOR problem is, Satan has never grown weary of the battle and he hasn't stopped.

All throughout the Law, we find that murderers (we are talking intentional murder of a fellow countrymen) are condemned to death, no question. Isn't that enough proof what God thinks of murder? How much longer will we continue with our ridiculous bungle of letting those who have committed such heinious crimes escape justice? God will eventually give every man his just reward, but I think we are in alot of trouble if we continue to let off people who should be taking responsibility for what they have done. If you take the priceless life of someone, there is only one thing that can pay it back. Another life. Life cannot paid by money, or time spent in prison.

 

[discipleHelovestoo]

You must be using one of those Revised Strong's Concordances. See Strong's 3163 machairan - sword or knife, i.e. a weapon.




If that isn't a blatant attempt to change the context of Scripture, then I don't know what is.

Why didn't Jesus acknowledge that He told Peter to wear a sword? Your argument defies common sense, because the question the Pacifist ought be asking is why did Christ allow... Peter to carry around a sword. The fact that Christ allowed Peter to carry that sword is what the Pacifists need to answer. Because Christ allowed it reveals we are allowed one too.

Peter was a Zealot, a military type sect of the Jews. So no doubt he was quicker to draw the sword on occasions like that than others. Just slicing off a man's ear shows he was pretty good with it too. And that... was the point our Lord was making about those who live by the sword will die by the sword, i.e., like the life of a Zealot. Doesn't mean those called to be soldiers that believe on Jesus aren't saved. Nor does it mean we are not allowed to carry a weapon to defend ourselves. The American Constitutional fathers knew this from The Bible too, which is why they wrote the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, an Amendment that Communists-Socialists-Internationalists are constantly trying to make an end around.





You sound just like a Pacifist. And you're definitely not even a "little Christ"; so scrap that teaching from false prophets, for there is only One Jesus Christ Who was without sin, and we ain't Him, nor can we ever be our own 'Christ'. (Becoming 'a Christ' is a New Age teaching by the way.)





Can you find anywhere in the Scripture where God held Moses accountable for that as 'murder'? What do you think the Egyptians would have done to Moses, regardless of it being self-defense or not? They knew the Egyptians would execute him. So he hid the bodies. No brainer. I believe Moses' passion was stirred up to come to the aid of his brethren. Stephen had this take on the matter...

Acts 7:24-25
24 And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:
25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.
KJV





Yep, and God punished David for it.




Verse 14 shows God took David's son as punishment. And what father wouldn't pray and fast to God in hopes He would forgive and change His mind? But once the child died, that was that. David stopped mourning at that point, which amazed the paid mourners who thought his mourning should have been greater after the child died.





Irrelevant. Is that something you heard at a one-verse sermon? God had no intention of letting Abraham sacrifice his son Isaac. It was a test of faith only. Not associated with David's sin, not at all. To know that David had great faith, all one need do is read the Psalms.




[/b]Yep, David killed out of lust for a woman. I never denied that.




There's no such thing as your idea of an excuse for self-defense. You're talking like those willing to carry a weapon for self-defense are a bunch right-wing jack-booted thugs. That's defaming your 2nd Amendment Constitutional right, if you're a U.S. citizen. What you're talking about is a vigilante that purposefully goes out looking for opportunities for self-defense just so they can kill someone. I don't know anyone who hand carries that thinks like that. Not saying they don't exist, but I don't know any.





Uh... baloney. Pacifist pro-Communist baloney even! Those who have the 'authority' to assign and execute the death penalty receive that authority from God Himself. That's why God's law in that still exists among our Christian society. And I hear in Texas they put death-row inmates on the fast-track.




Your line of thinking already has shown how you'd rather allow murderers to run on our streets, simply because you don't have the intestinal fortitude to obey God's laws about it. That is trying to place yourself above God, in His place even! It is to annul His commandments and judgments.

i never said that murderers should run the streets; you can sidestep the truth with insult and misrepresentation all you want, it doesn't move me - only scripture rightly divided moves me. even in the old testament law, men were to follow the leading of the Lord in judgment - not the leading of the senses.

nothing you've said has moved me, nor has anything i've said moved you - so be it; let the reader judge the truth.

 

[Groundzero]

i never said that murderers should run the streets; you can sidestep the truth with insult and misrepresentation all you want, it doesn't move me - only scripture rightly divided moves me. even in the old testament law, men were to follow the leading of the Lord in judgment - not the leading of the senses.

nothing you've said has moved me, nor has anything i've said moved you - so be it; let the reader judge the truth.

We are not following the senses over this. As I can see in Scripture, the punishment for murder was death. Christian men in government put that into the constitution, and only recently, in the 'name of humanity' have most places stopped applying the death penalty because it's too 'harsh.' I find nowhere in the Scripture that says that murderers should be let go free without penalty, in fact, according to Scripture, murderers are destined to the lake of fire. The only way out is forgiveness of sins because of Jesus' blood on Calvary.

 

[aspen]

The death penalty removes all chance for repentance in later life......I sure wouldn't want someone's damnation on my conscious on judgment day.

 

[Groundzero]

The death penalty removes all chance for repentance in later life......I sure wouldn't want someone's damnation on my conscious on judgment day.

Yeah, I guess we can look at it that way. There is a flip side to that, however. If the murderer is let go, and he kills someone else, who do you think is partially responsible? The person who should've given judgement is! A great Biblical example is that of David and his children. David loved his children, there is no mistake about that, but he failed to punish them when it was necessary. When Tamar was raped by Ammon, David did nothing about it. Absalom, as a result, murdered Ammon. David should have intervened when Ammon raped Tamar. He didn't. That led to murder. David should have definitely done something there. He did, he banished Absalom. But did that solve the problem? No. Absalom was allowed back and from there he led a rebellion against his father, and many more died. Was it worth it? No. If David had followed the law that God had set out and executed Absalom, that would've spared the lives of hundreds of his fellow countrymen. In fact, who knows what would've happened if David had nipped the problem in the bud by punishing Ammon instead of just expressing displeasure? Once someone has killed in cold-blood, there is no way that someone could, with a clear conscience, let them out into society again. You might say, well, just give them the life sentence. But does that really work? I don't think so. It merely burdens down society, and we know that justice is already corrupt. There was a reason for why the penalty in Scripture for murder was death.

 

[aspen]

Yeah, I guess we can look at it that way. There is a flip side to that, however. If the murderer is let go, and he kills someone else, who do you think is partially responsible? The person who should've given judgement is! A great Biblical example is that of David and his children. David loved his children, there is no mistake about that, but he failed to punish them when it was necessary. When Tamar was raped by Ammon, David did nothing about it. Absalom, as a result, murdered Ammon. David should have intervened when Ammon raped Tamar. He didn't. That led to murder. David should have definitely done something there. He did, he banished Absalom. But did that solve the problem? No. Absalom was allowed back and from there he led a rebellion against his father, and many more died. Was it worth it? No. If David had followed the law that God had set out and executed Absalom, that would've spared the lives of hundreds of his fellow countrymen. In fact, who knows what would've happened if David had nipped the problem in the bud by punishing Ammon instead of just expressing displeasure? Once someone has killed in cold-blood, there is no way that someone could, with a clear conscience, let them out into society again. You might say, well, just give them the life sentence. But does that really work? I don't think so. It merely burdens down society, and we know that justice is already corrupt. There was a reason for why the penalty in Scripture for murder was death.

I believe in Life in Prison

 

[Groundzero]

I believe in Life in Prison

For some murderers I might. For some though, I would definitely rule the death penalty.

 

[discipleHelovestoo]

We are not following the senses over this. As I can see in Scripture, the punishment for murder was death. Christian men in government put that into the constitution, and only recently, in the 'name of humanity' have most places stopped applying the death penalty because it's too 'harsh.' I find nowhere in the Scripture that says that murderers should be let go free without penalty, in fact, according to Scripture, murderers are destined to the lake of fire. The only way out is forgiveness of sins because of Jesus' blood on Calvary.

you are missing the point - the penalty for ANY transgression of the law is death - if you have offended in one point, you are guilty of ALL - including murder! no man in a flesh body is fit to judge and condemn - EVERYONE has transgressed the law and disqualified themselves from being a judge! yes; put people who refuse to respect the rights of others in prison - no, do not punish them - rehabilitate them with the word of God.

i don't argue that the penalty for murder under the law was death - i'm saying that there is no one currently in a flesh body who is qualified to make that judgment!

the law was given to drive men to seek mercy from God, not so they could earn the right to know Him. even where the law was applied in Moses time, the priests were to judge according to God's leading, not according to sense-perceived evidence.

i don't see anything in any post here that indicates that anyone believes murders should go free - where are you getting this???

" and remember to keep it based on the Scripture.

"

ok, so where is the scripture - New Testament - that you base your belief that there is anyone who can judge rightly without error and take another's life???

 

[Comm.Arnold]

I think there is a point when you just have to pull the trigger on someone. An example would be Jeffrey Dahmer he actually was disappointed that he didn't get the death penalty and was killed in prison anyways. Guys that do those types of things are so far gone and completely miserable that it is almost inhumane to keep them alive.

 

[discipleHelovestoo]

I think there is a point when you just have to pull the trigger on someone. An example would be Jeffrey Dahmer he actually was disappointed that he didn't get the death penalty and was killed in prison anyways. Guys that do those types of things are so far gone and completely miserable that it is almost inhumane to keep them alive.

we are free to think whatever we want; but as "little Christs", we are to choose to think what God thinks - where's the scripture for what you think about the death penalty?

 

[veteran]

you are missing the point - the penalty for ANY transgression of the law is death - if you have offended in one point, you are guilty of ALL - including murder!

Talk about letting one's senses rule over The Word of God, that's a prime example!

According that vain thinking, even a little child who in ignorance steals candy from the store ought to be tried for murder!! I pray God never allows you to get in any seat involving His judges here on earth that He gives authority to judge people per His law.

That kind of thinking is part of the problem today, and is why there's so much crime in our streets and neighborhoods today! That kind of thinking treats as if Christ said His laws to punish the wicked don't exist anymore.





Big mistake thinking WE are condemning a murder to the "lake of fire" by the death penalty. No judge on this earth given authority by God to sentence a murder to death is condemning that murder to eternal death of their soul and spirit. None but God has Authority to do that.

I wish the Liberal-Leftists who claim to be Christians would study their Bible more, for the "lake of fire" event does not occur until AFTER Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect priests and kings on earth. The ONLY ones already condemned to perish in the "lake of fire" as of yet, is Satan and his angels that rebelled against God. Not even Judas Iscariot who betrayed our Lord Jesus is condemned by God's Great White Throne Judgment yet.

The ploy to try to make Christians feel guilty for executing a convicted murder is not from God, but from the wicked rulers of this world who don't want their little "workers of iniquity" destroyed off this earth. That's who is behind that kind of thinking taught in many Churches today.