Death Penalty

[aspen]

God never allows you to get in any seat

Wow...talk about harsh! Your God doesn't even let you sit down? How are you supposed to rest? It is this kind of thinking that scare people away from Christianity! Jesus told us that His yoke is light - you are just making Christianity harder for all of us.

 

[discipleHelovestoo]

James 2:10-13 KJVR

(10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

(11) For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

(12) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

(13) For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.


how do you understand these scriptures?

 

[Groundzero]

you are missing the point - the penalty for ANY transgression of the law is death - if you have offended in one point, you are guilty of ALL - including murder! no man in a flesh body is fit to judge and condemn - EVERYONE has transgressed the law and disqualified themselves from being a judge! yes; put people who refuse to respect the rights of others in prison - no, do not punish them - rehabilitate them with the word of God.

i don't argue that the penalty for murder under the law was death - i'm saying that there is no one currently in a flesh body who is qualified to make that judgment!

the law was given to drive men to seek mercy from God, not so they could earn the right to know Him. even where the law was applied in Moses time, the priests were to judge according to God's leading, not according to sense-perceived evidence.

i don't see anything in any post here that indicates that anyone believes murders should go free - where are you getting this???

" and remember to keep it based on the Scripture.

"

ok, so where is the scripture - New Testament - that you base your belief that there is anyone who can judge rightly without error and take another's life???

For those who are not saved, they ARE STILL UNDER THE LAW! By saying murderers are being let go free, I am stating generally. I have read of far too many instances where there was a clear cut case against the person, who admitted in order for a deal to serve, in one example, eleven years in a prison for cold-blooded murder. In the instance of that woman who burnt her sons to death, she might have been mentally unstable, but she knew full well that she killed them. Is it really fair to say that you can pay for a person's life in ten years? twenty years? even one hundred years? NO! No one here believes that murderers should go free, but seriously, what actually is happening? People can kill, and while not in all circumstances, they quite often can get off with just a few years. Such a punishment hardly meets the premature taking of another person's life.


I cannot give you a NT Scripture that says that murderers should be executed. When I said keep it based on Scripture, I was ensuring that people wouldn't just let loose with ill-thought concepts about the death penalty. My reasoning over the death penalty is based on the Law that God gave to Moses. I can see where people come from when they say it's too harsh, but is it? Surely, the Creator of man knows man better than man does!


Concerning Murderers:


Cannot be convicted with just one witness: Num_35:30


Nothing should be accepted for the life of a murderer. The punishment is death: Num 35:31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.


The punishment is death: Numbers 35:16-18


Surely nothing could make it clearer than this verse:
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.


Please note, the previous Scripture was PRE-LAW! Man is made in the image of God, whoever kills his fellow man has a penalty to pay, and that is his life. You said that no one has the right now to make such judgement, I think we do. God has clearly stated, both in the law, and before the law was given, that whoever murdered, would have to pay with his life.

 

[Groundzero]

James 2:10-13 KJVR

(10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

(11) For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

(12) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

(13) For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.


how do you understand these scriptures?

From the examples James gives, he is talking about the Ten Commandments. What he stated, is that if you don't commit adultery, yet you kill, you STILL have broken the law! Then he goes on to say that we should speak and act as those who WILL be judged by the law of liberty. As for the mercy and judgement, I understand this to be in regard to everyday life. Before you say, that's totally unfounded, let me ask you a question, Did that murderer show compassion to his fellow man? No. Is it really showing compassion to give the murderer his life, or is it inviting more trouble, just like in the instance of David and his children? You see, David had 'compassion' for his children. Too much. Even when he SHOULD have punished them, he didn't.


This is what Scripture says concerning punishment of children: Pro_13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. Ouch! I mean, really, isn't it more compassionate to just give your kids a little reprimand or express displeasure? According to Scripture, no, it isn't. Now let's put that question into context with what we are discussing. Is it really compassionate to let a murder go without the punishment that God has said murderers must pay? I don't think so. In case we do think so, there is a flip side: Is it really compassionate for the victim's family? Definitely not. I am constantly reading of families crying for justice in the newspapers because the murderer of their loved one is only going to jail for twenty years.


As for 'sending them to Hell', I have no doubt that we can't send people to Hell. That is God's decision alone. However, we are responsible for our actions, and we MUST pay the consequences, good or bad, of what we have done. Not even a thousand years of hard labor could be sufficient punishment for murdering someone. Everyone is responsible for what they do, whether they like it or not. The consequence of murder is the death penalty.

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Wow...talk about harsh! Your God doesn't even let you sit down? How are you supposed to rest? It is this kind of thinking that scare people away from Christianity! Jesus told us that His yoke is light - you are just making Christianity harder for all of us.

I know this is off-topic, but just quickly: Christianity is not for sissies. It is for the brave. Jesus said at one point that we should take up our cross and follow him! That sounds like alot of pain. When Jesus said his yoke is easy, and his burden light, he was comparing to life in the world. Those in the world are trapped by their tradition, their religious laws, and their carnal desires. Jesus frees us from that. He doesn't burden us down with un-neccesities. When we follow Jesus, we have rest because that is what we were made for. We were made to worship! Jesus is the only one who can fulfil the longing of our hearts.

All throughout Scripture, we don't read of the Christian walk being easy. We read of a battle of life and death. We read of hardships and torment. Christianity is not for the sissies. It is for the brave.

 

[veteran]

Treating acts like murder like it's equal to any other sin is a sign of the 'new babe' who is still unlearned in God's Word. Sin is sin, but that's not the end of it. God's gave specific 'judgments' dependent upon the TYPE of sin. Some sins like murder are unto death, but other sins are not. It's important to know that, because if you ever have to appear before a judge in court for a speeding ticket, you wouldn't want to be tried like a murderer.

 

[aspen]

Loving the lovable and the unlovable and forgetting our egos is what we are called to do as Christians. It takes a brave person to do this......brave in the in the way Jesus taught us .......not the way the Jewish people expected. If you think we are called to be warriors for Jesus, you are making the same mistake as the Jewish people did - you are failing to recognize the Messiah and the Kingdom of God in our hearts.

 

[Groundzero]

Loving the lovable and the unlovable and forgetting our egos is what we are called to do as Christians. It takes a brave person to do this......brave in the in the way Jesus taught us .......not the way the Jewish people expected. If you think we are called to be warriors for Jesus, you are making the same mistake as the Jewish people did - you are failing to recognize the Messiah and the Kingdom of God in our hearts.

True love demands judgement. If you want to believe that Christianity is all about love, fine. The problem is, it isn't. Christianity is a war. A war of two sides, a war that has been waged since the beginning of time on a scale that has never been compared. I have not failed to recognise the Messiah. I recognise him all right. I not only recognise him, but I fight for him. I will lay everything on the line for him, because he is my King. True, love takes bravery, but if this was such a great truth, why did God never apply that to the murderer? Why is it that the penalty in the Law was death? We need an answer for it. Christians might be covered by grace, but the rest of the world isn't. Why is the death penalty used in the OT?

 

[aspen]

True love demands judgement. If you want to believe that Christianity is all about love, fine. The problem is, it isn't. Christianity is a war. A war of two sides, a war that has been waged since the beginning of time on a scale that has never been compared. I have not failed to recognise the Messiah. I recognise him all right. I not only recognise him, but I fight for him. I will lay everything on the line for him, because he is my King. True, love takes bravery, but if this was such a great truth, why did God never apply that to the murderer? Why is it that the penalty in the Law was death? We need an answer for it. Christians might be covered by grace, but the rest of the world isn't. Why is the death penalty used in the OT?

Wrong. You are describing dualism, not Christianity. Dualism has no place within Christianity - it is a heresy found within Zoroaterism, Gnosticism, Manichaeism, and pretty much all the early Christian heresies. Christianity teaches that evil is lesser good, not an equal, opposite force to be battled against. The Devil is like a naughty preschool kid and God is the principle - he has no power against the All Mighty God, except his childish rebellion.

I know it is more exciting to think about two armies fighting it out for supremacy, but we are really called to learn to love unconditionally and let God handle rebellion in His creation.

The Death Penalty was used in the OT because God was meeting a tough desert warrior people where they were at. Anything less than the death penalty for these people was inconceivable. Eye for and eye and tooth for a tooth was a real reform for them - I am sure the old people sat around pining for the old days when a respectable Israelite could kill anyone who offended him. We are not desert warriors - God's Spirit has been at work in the world and we have become more civil in this area.

 

[Groundzero]

Wrong. You are describing dualism, not Christianity. Dualism has no place within Christianity - it is a heresy found within Zoroaterism, Gnosticism, Manichaeism, and pretty much all the early Christian heresies. Christianity teaches that evil is lesser good, not an equal, opposite force to be battled against. The Devil is like a naughty preschool kid and God is the principle - he has no power against the All Mighty God, except his childish rebellion.

I know it is more exciting to think about two armies fighting it out for supremacy, but we are really called to learn to love unconditionally and let God handle rebellion in His creation.

The Death Penalty was used in the OT because God was meeting a tough desert warrior people where they were at. Anything less than the death penalty for these people was inconceivable. Eye for and eye and tooth for a tooth was a real reform for them - I am sure the old people sat around pining for the old days when a respectable Israelite could kill anyone who offended him. We are not desert warriors - God's Spirit has been at work in the world and we have become more civil in this area.

I have never heard of it. You said its more exciting. Yeah, true, but there are times when I wish I could slink off into some backwoods and just stay out of it. That, however, is not the calling on my life. True, Satan has no power, BUT WE ARE STILL IN A BATTLE FOR OUR SOULS! This is what Scripture says about battle:



Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;


Dear friend, if you don't believe that we are in a war, I pity you, because you have some useless armour and weapons then! The war might have been won, but our souls are not safe until we have left this earth. Tell me, is Paul talking about some nice love where we just let evil triumph? NO, NO, NO! He is talking about war, a real war, a literal war. Even Jesus, the Prince of Peace, told us that he would bring division, or better put, a sword, a rending!


Mat_10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.


I think the words of our lord should settle it once and for all. While we are no longer waving swords like the Israelites, we still are in battle, a battle of the spiritual realm that is evidenced in the physical.


You said that God was meeting a 'tough desert people where they were at.' Let me assure you, NOTHING has changed as far as humanity is concerned. You seem to have missed the Scripture I posted earlier that was pre-Law. Was that just to the people of Noah's day?! I don't think so!



Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.


If there is any doubt about what was just stated, God said that if a man murders, by MAN his blood will be shed. Something interesting to note, is that it says Num 35:19 The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him.
It seems to be that there was an actual avenger of blood. I would say that it would be a family member, and it was up to that person to avenge his relation's death. Put that into today, it is up to the family of the victim to decide whether they want to forgive the murderer or not. If a family of someone who has been brutally murdered is calling for the death penalty, I would not stand in their way.

 

[aspen]

I have never heard of it.

Then please do some research on Dualism - it is rearing it's ugly head inside Christianity, once more. Also, check out Augustine and C.S. Lewis on the definition of evil.

You said its more exciting. Yeah, true, but there are times when I wish I could slink off into some backwoods and just stay out of it. That, however, is not the calling on my life. True, Satan has no power, BUT WE ARE STILL IN A BATTLE FOR OUR SOULS!

Jesus won the battle. All we have to do is submit to His justification and sanctification, which means love.

This is what Scripture says about battle:
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;


And what does all that really mean? It is a war against our false self. Paul uses battle imagery to illustrate the difficulty of not falling into old habits - we are to throw off the Old Man or the Ego and start loving others. That is the true battle. The fact is, if it were possible to love perfectly, sin would cease to exist. Unfortunately, many Christians evade personal responsibility by blaming Satan for tempting them, just like our ancestors - it didn't fly with God then and it doesn't fly now.


Dear friend, if you don't believe that we are in a war, I pity you, because you have some useless armour and weapons then! The war might have been won, but our souls are not safe until we have left this earth. Tell me, is Paul talking about some nice love where we just let evil triumph? NO, NO, NO! He is talking about war, a real war, a literal war. Even Jesus, the Prince of Peace, told us that he would bring division, or better put, a sword, a rending!

Why does everyone think love is 'nice' and 'grandmotherly'? I am not talking about some warmed-over, hippie, flower-power! I am talking about sacrifice! Love is denial of the ego. Love is what Christ did for us on the cross! Nothing mamby-pamby about it! It is the whole purpose we were created and everything we forgot how to do when Adam and Eve stopped looking at God and saw they were naked - the birth of the false self!


Mat_10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Of course! Love is sword! Just think what would have happened in Congress over the weekend if the Congressmen din't spend the entire time making sure they could blame each other for raising the debt ceiling? If they really were 'public servants' they would actually serve the public instead protecting their seat in Congress. If we were able to truly love and vote in a manner that reflected it, they would all lose their seats and that would be threatening to them - just like it was threatening to the Pharisees when they encountered Christ's perfect love.


I think the words of our lord should settle it once and for all. While we are no longer waving swords like the Israelites, we still are in battle, a battle of the spiritual realm that is evidenced in the physical.

Love is the only way out.


You said that God was meeting a 'tough desert people where they were at.' Let me assure you, NOTHING has changed as far as humanity is concerned. You seem to have missed the Scripture I posted earlier that was pre-Law. Was that just to the people of Noah's day?! I don't think so!

So, the Holy Spirit has had no affect on the world? The Kingdom of God in our hearts is a complete failure? We have completely lost our saltiness? Certainly not!


Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

We got ourselves into this mess and God is getting us out of it.


If there is any doubt about what was just stated, God said that if a man murders, by MAN his blood will be shed. Something interesting to note, is that it says Num 35:19 The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him.
It seems to be that there was an actual avenger of blood. I would say that it would be a family member, and it was up to that person to avenge his relation's death. Put that into today, it is up to the family of the victim to decide whether they want to forgive the murderer or not. If a family of someone who has been brutally murdered is calling for the death penalty, I would not stand in their way.

Yep. He was limiting the bloodshed to just the murderer, rather than the tradition of ancient people, which was to kill the whole family of the murderer.

 

[Groundzero]

Then please do some research on Dualism - it is rearing it's ugly head inside Christianity, once more. Also, check out Augustine and C.S. Lewis on the definition of evil.

I don't care what others call evil. The only thing that I will call evil is what God will call evil. I couldn't be bothered messing with that which is not even based on Scripture.
Jesus won the battle. All we have to do is submit to His justification and sanctification, which means love.

Really? So your soul is safe now? You can just go and do whatever you want and you will still go to heaven? Jesus won the war, but it hasn't finished yet until he returns! If the battle is all over, why do we still have problems, moreover, why do we still have evidence of Satan-worship? I have seen movies from twenty years back that freak me out. Talk about devil-worship, there is a dark power and it is very active. We just shut our eyes though because it is too scary for us to meet and we don't want to get 'dirty'!



And what does all that really mean? It is a war against our false self. Paul uses battle imagery to illustrate the difficulty of not falling into old habits - we are to throw off the Old Man or the Ego and start loving others. That is the true battle. The fact is, if it were possible to love perfectly, sin would cease to exist. Unfortunately, many Christians evade personal responsibility by blaming Satan for tempting them, just like our ancestors - it didn't fly with God then and it doesn't fly now.


Oh. Wow. So those darts of the wicked are all imagined (Eph. 6:16) and the wiles of the devil are completely harmless. Is this verse referring to the flesh? Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. I don't think so. It's talking about evil, it's talking about the dominion of the powers of darkness!


Mat_16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
In case we are wondering, gates don't come to us, we GO TO THEM! We are to be those bringing the fight to the enemy in the name of Jesus! Prevail is not some weak term. It's talking about an earnestness, a determination, a suffering, and a victory. There cannot be a victory without a battle, and the battle is not just against self, it's against , powers, and rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness.


Why does everyone think love is 'nice' and 'grandmotherly'? I am not talking about some warmed-over, hippie, flower-power! I am talking about sacrifice! Love is denial of the ego. Love is what Christ did for us on the cross! Nothing mamby-pamby about it! It is the whole purpose we were created and everything we forgot how to do when Adam and Eve stopped looking at God and saw they were naked - the birth of the false self!


Well guess what, we are still in the same body of flesh as was Adam and Eve, and that body is still cursed. We will always be fighting against ourselves until we die. I don't think love is nice. I think love is commitment. Love is burning your ships. True love, is sacrifice.

Of course! Love is sword! Just think what would have happened in Congress over the weekend if the Congressmen din't spend the entire time making sure they could blame each other for raising the debt ceiling? If they really were 'public servants' they would actually serve the public instead protecting their seat in Congress. If we were able to truly love and vote in a manner that reflected it, they would all lose their seats and that would be threatening to them - just like it was threatening to the Pharisees when they encountered Christ's perfect love.



God help us! Every person is different and has different ideas. Obviously one Scripture wasn't enough. Let me put on the rest of that Scripture:

Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Umm, I thought the word foes meant enemies.



Love is the only way out.



Jesus said something about love. "IF you love me, KEEP my commandments." Love has conditions. If you really want to show your love for Jesus, you MUST do what he commands.

So, the Holy Spirit has had no affect on the world? The Kingdom of God in our hearts is a complete failure? We have completely lost our saltiness? Certainly not!

No, but we still think the same, we still have a body of flesh and we are still prone to the same errors! If anything, the fact that we have the Holy Spirit means that we should be doing even more than those heroes of faith! "Unto whom much is given, much will be required." You know something about salt, when you put it on a wound, it stings!

We got ourselves into this mess and God is getting us out of it.

Wonderful. Perhaps we need to do something as well! Faith without works is dead. James 2:17


Yep. He was limiting the bloodshed to just the murderer, rather than the tradition of ancient people, which was to kill the whole family of the murderer.

I don't recall mentioning execution of the whole family. I don't know what you're getting at here other than the fact you have just agreed that God did institute the death penalty.

 

[aspen]

Then please do some research on Dualism - it is rearing it's ugly head inside Christianity, once more. Also, check out Augustine and C.S. Lewis on the definition of evil.

I don't care what others call evil.

Really? What if the people have spent their lives studying the Bible? I think there is great benefit in learning as much as we can about the Bible rather than simply relying on our own ability to comprehend the message, even if we have a close relationship with the Holy Spirit. Of course, it makes sense that you would reject Augustine and C.S. Lewis' writings because they are orthodox Christians (believe in the Trinity).

The only thing that I will call evil is what God will call evil.

God calls evil what it is - lesser good. Evil was not part of creation. Evil is not a separate force - it is like cold, which is an absence of heat. Cars do not have two equal parts in the engine - one broken and one not broken. Evil is reliant on good to exist - Good exists alone.

I couldn't be bothered messing with that which is not even based on Scripture.

Well, Augustine and Lewis based what they wrote about on scripture - to claim otherwise is ignorant. There theology is so foundational within Christianity that you probably share many of their beliefs and do not even know it.

Jesus won the battle. All we have to do is submit to His justification and sanctification, which means love.

Really? So your soul is safe now?

Yep! That is the Good News! As far as my soul being safe....I am in a saving relationship with Jesus, which is rebuilding my heart into the heart it was originally created to be. If I continue to submit my will to Christ's sanctification, He will finish the good work of my redemption. I guess I really do not think of it as being 'safe' - it is sort of like being in a good marriage - are you really safe from divorce?

You can just go and do whatever you want and you will still go to heaven?

Doing whatever I want means following my ego, which leads to Hell. Submitting my will to Christ's means redemption. We are called to practice our sanctification by loving God and our neighbor - it's the whole point of Christianity.

Jesus won the war, but it hasn't finished yet until he returns!

George W. Bush is the only leader I know foolish enough to declare victory before finishing a war. Jesus has restored a relationship with us and now we need to submit to His sanctification. The only war is with our false selves.

If the battle is all over, why do we still have problems, moreover, why do we still have evidence of Satan-worship? I have seen movies from twenty years back that freak me out. Talk about devil-worship, there is a dark power and it is very active. We just shut our eyes though because it is too scary for us to meet and we don't want to get 'dirty'!

1. We are still prone to selfishness
2. Satan worship is following demonic examples - worship of the ego. If you do not believe me, ask any Satanist.
3. Yep. The 80s were filled with claims of Satan worship - 99% turned out to be false. Google 'satanic scare 80s'
4. Your ego is what is going to damn you....not any demon. Even Satan knows that - his ego damned him.

And what does all that really mean? It is a war against our false self. Paul uses battle imagery to illustrate the difficulty of not falling into old habits - we are to throw off the Old Man or the Ego and start loving others. That is the true battle. The fact is, if it were possible to love perfectly, sin would cease to exist. Unfortunately, many Christians evade personal responsibility by blaming Satan for tempting them, just like our ancestors - it didn't fly with God then and it doesn't fly now.

Oh. Wow. So those darts of the wicked are all imagined (Eph. 6:16) and the wiles of the devil are completely harmless.

Imaginary? Ha! The false self is hardly imaginary! Your false self or ego is fully capable of driving you right off a cliff. If you really need to believe that a demon is required to tempt your false self, do what works for you. The fact is, hormones and a pretty face needs no encouragement for most.

Is this verse referring to the flesh? Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. I don't think so. It's talking about evil, it's talking about the dominion of the powers of darkness!

Yep. Paul is talking about evil. The world is following the doctrine of demons instead of submitting to Christ - collectively denying what they were created to do and choosing to worship the ego. So how do we battle against this doctrine? Submit to Christ and receive His justification; receive and practice His sanctification by practicing love. Love is the only way to prevail against the lack of love.

Mat_16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
In case we are wondering, gates don't come to us, we GO TO THEM! We are to be those bringing the fight to the enemy in the name of Jesus! Prevail is not some weak term. It's talking about an earnestness, a determination, a suffering, and a victory. There cannot be a victory without a battle, and the battle is not just against self, it's against , powers, and rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness.

Oh boy...I've seen this verse butchered in my day, but this is a new low.....

Jesus is reassuring His disciples that His Church will never be extinguished from the Earth. That is it. Jesus spends quite a bit of time reassuring His disciples because they had a lot to fear being His followers in those days.

Why does everyone think love is 'nice' and 'grandmotherly'? I am not talking about some warmed-over, hippie, flower-power! I am talking about sacrifice! Love is denial of the ego. Love is what Christ did for us on the cross! Nothing mamby-pamby about it! It is the whole purpose we were created and everything we forgot how to do when Adam and Eve stopped looking at God and saw they were naked - the birth of the false self!

Well guess what, we are still in the same body of flesh as was Adam and Eve, and that body is still cursed. We will always be fighting against ourselves until we die. I don't think love is nice. I think love is commitment. Love is burning your ships. True love, is sacrifice.

Our bodies were created to love. Unfortunately, we learned how to love ourselves instead of, rather than because God loves us. We justified our selfish love by creating a false ego - which pretends that we are worthy of our own love without regard for God or others. God's plan for our redemption corrects our error. It really is that simple and that difficult.

Of course! Love is sword! Just think what would have happened in Congress over the weekend if the Congressmen din't spend the entire time making sure they could blame each other for raising the debt ceiling? If they really were 'public servants' they would actually serve the public instead protecting their seat in Congress. If we were able to truly love and vote in a manner that reflected it, they would all lose their seats and that would be threatening to them - just like it was threatening to the Pharisees when they encountered Christ's perfect love.

God help us! Every person is different and has different ideas. Obviously one Scripture wasn't enough. Let me put on the rest of that Scripture:

Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Umm, I thought the word foes meant enemies.

Jesus was talking to Jews who believed they were members of God's Chosen People, by birth. He was letting them know that the traditions of their families was not going to restore them to a relationship with God - they needed to love. Hyperbole was a common form of speak during Jesus's day - He makes use of it here.

Love is the only way out.

Jesus said something about love. "IF you love me, KEEP my commandments." Love has conditions. If you really want to show your love for Jesus, you MUST do what he commands.

Love is the sum of the Law. TO LOVE IS TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS AND THEREFORE RECEIVE HIS LOVE! Pretty cool!!

So, the Holy Spirit has had no affect on the world? The Kingdom of God in our hearts is a complete failure? We have completely lost our saltiness? Certainly not!

No, but we still think the same, we still have a body of flesh and we are still prone to the same errors! If anything, the fact that we have the Holy Spirit means that we should be doing even more than those heroes of faith! "Unto whom much is given, much will be required." You know something about salt, when you put it on a wound, it stings!

We are not being redeemed in isolation. God has had an impact on the hearts of humans since He kicked us out of the Garden.

We got ourselves into this mess and God is getting us out of it.

Wonderful. Perhaps we need to do something as well! Faith without works is dead. James 2:17

'So sayeth the Protestant to the Catholic....' lol! Overthrowing the Old Man (ego) and learning to love perfectly is 'something'.

Yep. He was limiting the bloodshed to just the murderer, rather than the tradition of ancient people, which was to kill the whole family of the murderer.

I don't recall mentioning execution of the whole family. I don't know what you're getting at here other than the fact you have just agreed that God did institute the death penalty.

That is because God did institute the Death Penalty - as a restriction against further bloodshed. Check out some histories of ancient civilizations.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

we are free to think whatever we want; but as "little Christs", we are to choose to think what God thinks - where's the scripture for what you think about the death penalty?

Well there are large portions of the bible that focus on wisdom is it wise to keep some cannibal butcher roming around on the streets when we can do something about it ? Well he can have your family but he can pry my gun from cold dead hands. There are also verses about forgiving your brother a maximum number of times with the words 70 times 7 and protecting the innocent and weak. If you kill some blood thirsty savage who kills without remorse in order to save 10 innocent children Ill do it and Ill look God in the eye on my judgement day and stand by my actions. Now you think it is better to keep someone alive in prison and profit off them well you come up with another arguement.

Just so I don't come across like some savage myself, I am referring to absolute worst types of crimes child molestors and murderers people who torture and rape people, crazy mass murderers etc. Not the guy who got in a road rage incedent or some guy who killed by accident. I am referring to beyond a reasonable doubt guilty as sin demonic controlled crazies.

 

[aspen]

Well there are large portions of the bible that focus on wisdom is it wise to keep some cannibal butcher roming around on the streets when we can do something about it ? Well he can have your family but he can pry my gun from cold dead hands. There are also verses about forgiving your brother a maximum number of times with the words 70 times 7 and protecting the innocent and weak. If you kill some blood thirsty savage who kills without remorse in order to save 10 innocent children Ill do it and Ill look God in the eye on my judgement day and stand by my actions. Now you think it is better to keep someone alive in prison and profit off them well you come up with another arguement.

Just so I don't come across like some savage myself, I am referring to absolute worst types of crimes child molestors and murderers people who torture and rape people, crazy mass murderers etc. Not the guy who got in a road rage incedent or some guy who killed by accident. I am referring to beyond a reasonable doubt guilty as sin demonic controlled crazies.

'7 X 70' is the same as saying 'infinity'

 

[Comm.Arnold]

'7 X 70' is the same as saying 'infinity'

Well aspen not according to my calculator or my dictionary or the english used in the NIV it would equal 490 times. Not that this verse is a great arguement for the death penalty I am saying as a ruler as society functions you must have some responsibilty to protect your people.

 

[Duckybill]

Maybe I should bring up Luke 22 here also, where our Lord Jesus told His disciples before sending them out to preach The Gospel to go buy a sword if they didn't yet have one?

But He told them not to use them.

[font="Arial][size="3"]Mt 26:52 ESV [/size][/font]
[font="Arial][size="3"]Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

[/size][/font]

 

[Foreigner]

Well aspen not according to my calculator or my dictionary or the english used in the NIV it would equal 490 times. Not that this verse is a great arguement for the death penalty I am saying as a ruler as society functions you must have some responsibilty to protect your people.

-- I have never been one to jump into the fray as far as the accuracy of different Bible translations, but I would strongly urge you not to keep the NIV as your sole translation.
Get an ESV, KJV or NASB, as well.

You will find a number of times where the NIV translation is more than a tad different than how it was originally translated.

As for 70x7, Aspen is right. Christ meant 'always.'

 

[Groundzero]

Really? What if the people have spent their lives studying the Bible? I think there is great benefit in learning as much as we can about the Bible rather than simply relying on our own ability to comprehend the message, even if we have a close relationship with the Holy Spirit. Of course, it makes sense that you would reject Augustine and C.S. Lewis' writings because they are orthodox Christians (believe in the Trinity).

I think you know full well that I have demolished any concept that the Trinity is Biblical. If you want to continue such a point, start another forum, please. I don't reject their writings, but I do line them up by Scripture, not by what man has called 'orthodox' Christianity. The one who makes Christian is Jesus. Only through the Bible will we find a true account of him. If someone's writings don't line up with Scripture, I don't care if they are the most decorated men in history, I don't give a damn over what they say. When replying to my posts, I would appreciate it if you would have the courage to tackle what I say in full. Instead of just taking one sentence, what about you take the whole paragraph?!

God calls evil what it is - lesser good. Evil was not part of creation. Evil is not a separate force - it is like cold, which is an absence of heat. Cars do not have two equal parts in the engine - one broken and one not broken. Evil is reliant on good to exist - Good exists alone.

I am not even going to get into this.

Well, Augustine and Lewis based what they wrote about on scripture - to claim otherwise is ignorant. There theology is so foundational within Christianity that you probably share many of their beliefs and do not even know it.

Oh really? So they weren't human and prone to error!!!!!!!! God help us! God forbid that we EVER take a man's word as gospel without lining it up with Scripture! I KNOW what I believe, and I know where I stand. I stand fully on Scripture alone. I have not based any doctrine on something man has created, even though some seem to think that is ok!

Yep! That is the Good News! As far as my soul being safe....I am in a saving relationship with Jesus, which is rebuilding my heart into the heart it was originally created to be. If I continue to submit my will to Christ's sanctification, He will finish the good work of my redemption. I guess I really do not think of it as being 'safe' - it is sort of like being in a good marriage - are you really safe from divorce?


Doing whatever I want means following my ego, which leads to Hell. Submitting my will to Christ's means redemption. We are called to practice our sanctification by loving God and our neighbor - it's the whole point of Christianity.


George W. Bush is the only leader I know foolish enough to declare victory before finishing a war. Jesus has restored a relationship with us and now we need to submit to His sanctification. The only war is with our false selves.

My dear friend, I would love to see what would happen if YOU were president of the USA. Perhaps you would view things differently! In case you are wondering, if we have been sanctified by Jesus' blood, how can we be wicked?! Those darts are not from us, it from the wicked, or as the version you use puts it, the wicked ONE! I think that is referring to Satan!


1. We are still prone to selfishness
2. Satan worship is following demonic examples - worship of the ego. If you do not believe me, ask any Satanist.
3. Yep. The 80s were filled with claims of Satan worship - 99% turned out to be false. Google 'satanic scare 80s'
4. Your ego is what is going to damn you....not any demon. Even Satan knows that - his ego damned him.
Imaginary? Ha! The false self is hardly imaginary! Your false self or ego is fully capable of driving you right off a cliff. If you really need to believe that a demon is required to tempt your false self, do what works for you. The fact is, hormones and a pretty face needs no encouragement for most.

Look here. This forum is about the death penalty. If you want to have a discussion over whether Satan is alive and active in today's world, start the forum. I am not going to say anymore, as I cannot see the point. You can go on believing that there is only yourself to worry about, that is probably true. At the moment, I don't think Satan is that worried about you. He's probably killing himself laughing over the fact that you think HE is no longer active!


Yep. Paul is talking about evil. The world is following the doctrine of demons instead of submitting to Christ - collectively denying what they were created to do and choosing to worship the ego. So how do we battle against this doctrine? Submit to Christ and receive His justification; receive and practice His sanctification by practicing love. Love is the only way to prevail against the lack of love.

Oh, yes. I can just see the beautiful logic! Some foreign army marches onto Australia's shores intent on destroying and killing, and I just show them love by letting them do whatever they wish to me and my country! God! How can we get so warped in our thinking?! If an enemy ever sets foot in my country, I WILL show love. I'LL SHOW IT TO MY COUNTRYMEN BY PUTTING MY LIFE ON THE LINE FOR THEM AND THEIR FREEDOM!


Oh boy...I've seen this verse butchered in my day, but this is a new low.....

Jesus is reassuring His disciples that His Church will never be extinguished from the Earth. That is it. Jesus spends quite a bit of time reassuring His disciples because they had a lot to fear being His followers in those days.

You seem to have missed the part about the Gates of Hell. I guess you think that GATES WALK! I don't think Jesus would have said 'gates' of hell if he was talking about a passive Christianity! GATES DON'T COME TO YOU, YOU GO TO THEM!
[font="'Book Antiqua"]
[/font]
Jesus was talking to Jews who believed they were members of God's Chosen People, by birth. He was letting them know that the traditions of their families was not going to restore them to a relationship with God - they needed to love. Hyperbole was a common form of speak during Jesus's day - He makes use of it here.
[font="'Book Antiqua"]
[/font]Really? Well I can't see the hyperbole?! It might not be the case in every instance, but all the same, there will be division, and it will be in the most foundational blocks of society! Back to the death penalty. If you want to continue this discussion, start it in another forum.

But He told them not to use them.
[font="Arial][size="3"]Mt 26:52 ESV [/size][/font]
[font="Arial][size="3"]Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

[/size][/font]

I think this objection has already been answered. This one hasn't: WHY WOULD JESUS TELL HIS DISCIPLES TO BUY A SWORD?

Well there are large portions of the bible that focus on wisdom is it wise to keep some cannibal butcher roming around on the streets when we can do something about it ? Well he can have your family but he can pry my gun from cold dead hands. There are also verses about forgiving your brother a maximum number of times with the words 70 times 7 and protecting the innocent and weak. If you kill some blood thirsty savage who kills without remorse in order to save 10 innocent children Ill do it and Ill look God in the eye on my judgement day and stand by my actions. Now you think it is better to keep someone alive in prison and profit off them well you come up with another arguement.

Just so I don't come across like some savage myself, I am referring to absolute worst types of crimes child molestors and murderers people who torture and rape people, crazy mass murderers etc. Not the guy who got in a road rage incedent or some guy who killed by accident. I am referring to beyond a reasonable doubt guilty as sin demonic controlled crazies.

I agree with you. I get sick of hearing people cry about 'mercy' for the killer, and seemingly forget about mercy for the murdered. Issues are being made about the 70x7. Ummm, please, let's have logic here. Does that mean that someone can go about murdering and we just keep forgiving? I SEVERELY DOUBT THAT! I don't think Jesus was saying that we should only forgive 490 times, but I think Jesus was saying that if our brother offends us and asks for forgiveness, give it to him. I don't think he was referring to murder and stealing! Responsibility for actions is a must. Without it we fall apart, as is being so readily demonstrated for us in today's world.

 

[discipleHelovestoo]

Well there are large portions of the bible that focus on wisdom is it wise to keep some cannibal butcher roming around on the streets when we can do something about it ? Well he can have your family but he can pry my gun from cold dead hands. There are also verses about forgiving your brother a maximum number of times with the words 70 times 7 and protecting the innocent and weak. If you kill some blood thirsty savage who kills without remorse in order to save 10 innocent children Ill do it and Ill look God in the eye on my judgement day and stand by my actions. Now you think it is better to keep someone alive in prison and profit off them well you come up with another arguement.

Just so I don't come across like some savage myself, I am referring to absolute worst types of crimes child molestors and murderers people who torture and rape people, crazy mass murderers etc. Not the guy who got in a road rage incedent or some guy who killed by accident. I am referring to beyond a reasonable doubt guilty as sin demonic controlled crazies.

i don't see anything in any post here that indicates that anyone believes that murderers should go free - where are you getting this???


Job 42:5-6 KJVR

(5) I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

(6) Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.


aside from Jesus, no man will 'look God in the eye and stand by his actions'


Luke 23:39-43 KJVR

(39) And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

(40) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

(41) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. (emphasis added)


malefactor
MALEFACTOR, n. supra. One who commits a crime; one guilty of violating the laws, in such a manner as to subject him to public prosecution and punishment, particularly to capital punishment; a criminal.


Notice what the Master said in verse 43 - 'all murderers must die'; no, wait - that's not what He said is it?


Luke 23:33-34 KJVR

(33) And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

(34) Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. (emphasis added)


if there was ever ANYONE who deserved the death penalty - it was those who murdered the sinless Son of God - what is the Master's example here?


Luke 2:14 KJVR

(14) Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. (emphasis added)

1 John 2:2 KJVR

(2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Propitiation

PROPITIATION, n. propisia'shon.

1. The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious.

2. In theology, the atonement or atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of men. Rom 3. 1 John 2.


the most precious price has been paid for the sins of the whole world; to execute someone is to lightly esteem the magnitude of Jesus' sacrifice at the cross, it's saying that there must be an additional payment made beyond what Jesus did.

Judas Iscariot (a murderer by complicity) did not go to hell for murder - if he's there; he went because he rejected God through rejecting Jesus' atonement for his sins, including murder - he's there for rejecting the payment. Murder doesn't send anyone to hell; rejecting the payment is what sends people to hell.


1 John 3:15 KJVR

(15) Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. (emphasis added)


have you ever hated anyone? you might be hating someone right now


James 2:10-13 KJVR

(10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

(11) For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

(12) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

(13) For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. (emphasis added)


what does verse 13 mean to you?

i'm not arguing with you, i don't expect to change your mind - but if you're a 'little Christ' (a Christian), i do expect you to base your arguments in the scriptures. if you don't have New Coveneant scripture to back up what you say, the folks who read these posts will see only the New Coveneant scriptural support for the belief that the death penalty should NOT be used.

where's the scripture you stand on for your beliefs?

 

[Groundzero]

i don't see anything in any post here that indicates that anyone believes that murderers should go free - where are you getting this???

We are not saying murderers go free. But as has been stated before, is it really justice that someone can take a priceless life as in the cases we have talked about and then supposedly 'pay' for the crimes in sixty years in a comfortable jail? NO! Not all the treasures of this world are worth one human soul! As I have been stating all throughout, humanity MUST be responsible for their actions. That means that they MUST pay for what they do. Yes, there is forgiveness, but here's yet another example. If I am disobedient, my dad will punish me. I can ask for forgiveness and get it, but do I still get punished? YES! It's the same everywhere, or should be!

Job 42:5-6 KJVR

(5) I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

(6) Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.


aside from Jesus, no man will 'look God in the eye and stand by his actions'

For those who don't understand what 'looking in the eye' means. It means that we have no fear or doubt. If I am forced to kill someone to protect others, I will do it with a clear conscience that I did my very best.

Luke 23:39-43 KJVR

(39) And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

(40) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

(41) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. (emphasis added)


malefactor
MALEFACTOR, n. supra. One who commits a crime; one guilty of violating the laws, in such a manner as to subject him to public prosecution and punishment, particularly to capital punishment; a criminal.


Notice what the Master said in verse 43 - 'all murderers must die'; no, wait - that's not what He said is it?

So that malefactor didn't die?! Jesus forgave the malefactor his crimes because he sought forgiveness. JESUS DID NOT, I repeat, DID NOT, take that man off the cross and let him go free or give him a life sentence. Even the malefactor realised that hanging on the cross was what he had to pay! You have merely shot in the air. You haven't actually hit anything.

Luke 23:33-34 KJVR

(33) And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

(34) Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. (emphasis added)


if there was ever ANYONE who deserved the death penalty - it was those who murdered the sinless Son of God - what is the Master's example here?

I believe that I have already previously stated that whether the death penalty should be used is up to the family of the victim. If they want to forgive, I am fine with that, if they want justice, they have every right to it.

Luke 2:14 KJVR

(14) Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. (emphasis added)

1 John 2:2 KJVR

(2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Propitiation

PROPITIATION, n. propisia'shon.

1. The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person; the act of making propitious.

2. In theology, the atonement or atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of men. Rom 3. 1 John 2.


the most precious price has been paid for the sins of the whole world; to execute someone is to lightly esteem the magnitude of Jesus' sacrifice at the cross, it's saying that there must be an additional payment made beyond what Jesus did.

Judas Iscariot (a murderer by complicity) did not go to hell for murder - if he's there; he went because he rejected God through rejecting Jesus' atonement for his sins, including murder - he's there for rejecting the payment. Murder doesn't send anyone to hell; rejecting the payment is what sends people to hell.

Wow. What about the verse in Revelations that says that all murderers are destined for hellfire?! You have serious problems in your reasoning. It's only through the blood of Jesus that ANY of us can escape Hell. To say that 'murder doesn't send anyone to Hell' is just wrong.

1 John 3:15 KJVR

(15) Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. (emphasis added)


have you ever hated anyone? you might be hating someone right now

What point does this prove?

James 2:10-13 KJVR

(10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

(11) For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

(12) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

(13) For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. (emphasis added)


what does verse 13 mean to you?

i'm not arguing with you, i don't expect to change your mind - but if you're a 'little Christ' (a Christian), i do expect you to base your arguments in the scriptures. if you don't have New Coveneant scripture to back up what you say, the folks who read these posts will see only the New Coveneant scriptural support for the belief that the death penalty should NOT be used.

where's the scripture you stand on for your beliefs?

What does verse 13 mean? Easy. If a murderer shows no mercy, that's exactly what he should get: no mercy. You don't seem to have answered the flip side. What about mercy to the family of the victims?

Ouch. We are not advocating that all murderers should be axed. We should NOT however, remove the death penalty. It was instituted by God for a reason. It was even before Abraham! Yes, we have posted those Scriptures. You want to explain them away.