Deconstruction Part 2: Into Apostolicity

[Lizbeth]

Guess what he is trying to say-without Scripture references is this-see if you agree.
The Foundation is God’s, Not Ours
The Bible emphasizes that the foundation of our faith and work must be established by God, not by our own efforts or ego.

1 Corinthians 3:11 (NIV):

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ."

This verse clearly establishes that Jesus Christ is the only true foundation upon which believers should build their lives and ministries. Any attempt to establish a foundation based on human ego or effort is inherently flawed.

Building Where God is, Not Where We Are
To build where God is implies aligning our efforts with His will and purpose rather than pursuing our own ambitions.

Matthew 7:24-25 (NIV):

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock."

Jesus teaches that those who follow His teachings are building on a solid foundation. This foundation is stable and enduring, unlike one built on human desires or ego.

The Uncrucified Ego
The Bible speaks extensively about the need to deny oneself and take up the cross, which symbolizes the crucifixion of the ego and sinful nature.

Galatians 2:20 (NIV):

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Paul’s declaration illustrates the necessity of crucifying the ego to allow Christ to live and work through us. This is essential for a life that is truly built on the foundation of Christ.

Building with Holy and Perfect Materials
When building on the foundation of Christ, the materials we use must align with His holy and perfect nature.

1 Corinthians 3:12-13 (NIV):

"If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work."

Paul indicates that the quality of our work will be tested, and only those built with valuable, eternal materials (symbolizing holy and righteous deeds) will endure.

The Ego Needs to be Broken, Not Protected
Scripture underscores the necessity of humility and the dangers of pride, which often stems from the ego.

James 4:6 (NIV):

"But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: 'God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.'"

To build in a manner pleasing to God, one must approach with humility, recognizing that it is God's power and grace that sustain us, not our ego.

Summary
Foundation of Christ: Jesus Christ is the only true foundation (1 Corinthians 3:11).

Building Where God Is: Aligning our efforts with God’s will ensures stability (Matthew 7:24-25).

Crucifying the Ego: True Christian life requires the ego to be crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20).

Holy Materials: Building with holy and righteous deeds is essential (1 Corinthians 3:12-13).

Humility Over Ego: God favors the humble and opposes the proud (James 4:6).

Thus, the correct approach to building a life and ministry that honors God is to rely on the foundation of Christ, crucify the ego, use holy and perfect materials, and maintain a spirit of humility. This aligns with the biblical principle that God is the true foundation, and we must build according to His purposes, not our own ambitions.





Building on the Foundation of Christ
Ephesians 2:19-22 (NIV):

"Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit."

Isaiah 28:16 (NIV):

"So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: 'See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who relies on it will never be stricken with panic.'"

Crucifying the Ego
Luke 9:23 (NIV):

"Then he said to them all: 'Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.'"

Galatians 5:24 (NIV):

"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

Using Holy and Perfect Materials
1 Peter 2:4-5 (NIV):

"As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him—you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

2 Timothy 2:20-21 (NIV):

"In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work."

Humility Over Ego
Philippians 2:3-4 (NIV):

"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others."

Proverbs 16:18 (NIV):

"Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall."

1 Peter 5:5-6 (NIV):

"In the same way, you who are younger, submit yourselves to your elders. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, 'God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.' Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time."

Trusting in God's Strength, Not Our Own
2 Corinthians 12:9 (NIV):

"But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me."

John 15:4-5 (NIV):

"Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."

Summary
These scriptures collectively emphasize the importance of:

Building on the solid foundation of Christ (Ephesians 2:19-22, Isaiah 28:16).

Denying oneself and crucifying the ego to follow Christ (Luke 9:23, Galatians 5:24).

Using holy and perfect materials in our spiritual endeavors (1 Peter 2:4-5, 2 Timothy 2:20-21).

Maintaining humility and avoiding pride (Philippians 2:3-4, Proverbs 16:18, 1 Peter 5:5-6).

Trusting in God's strength and not relying on our own abilities (2 Corinthians 12:9, John 15:4-5).

By adhering to these principles, believers can ensure that their lives and ministries are built on a foundation that is pleasing to God and aligned with His will.

Your turn @Lizbeth while I eat my pop corn.
J.

lol.

We received that foundation/cornerstone of Christ when we came to faith....but need to build on it. I don't know what point Epi is making with saying the foundation is not "ours"...or why he felt it was necessary to say that to me in response to my post.

And what prompted this and what does it mean?

"That foundation is to build where HE is...not where you are. So you are bringing the uncrucified ego into the mix...therefore you will not be able to build with materials that are holy and perfect."

 

[Episkopos]

lol.

We received that foundation/cornerstone of Christ when we came to faith....but need to build on it. I don't know what point Epi is making with saying the foundation is not "ours"...or why he felt it was necessary to say that to me in response to my post.

And what prompted this and what does it mean?

"That foundation is to build where HE is...not where you are. So you are bringing the uncrucified ego into the mix...therefore you will not be able to build with materials that are holy and perfect."

Consider this...we are to be translated into the kingdom...where our life is hid...where? With Christ IN God. Where I am, Jesus says, so you will there with Me. Seated in heavenly places...

God resides in Zion with those who are humble. Holiness is a place.

For thus says the high and lofty One that inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Is. 57:15

God dwells in Zion...and He takes up the contrite and humble ones to walk with Him WHERE HE IS. That is the higher walk...the 2nd cut.

 

[Johann]

We received that foundation/cornerstone of Christ when we came to faith....but need to build on it. I don't know what point Epi is making with saying the foundation is not "ours"...or why he felt it was necessary to say that to me in response to my post.

I nearly choked on my popcorn-this can get messy-very quickly.


1. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
1 Corinthians 3:11 (NIV):

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ."

Explanation:
Paul is clear that Jesus Christ is the only true foundation upon which believers can build their lives. This foundation is established by God, not by human effort. Paul emphasizes that believers must build upon this foundation, indicating a continuous process of growth and development in faith. This underscores that while the foundation is received at the point of faith, the believer's responsibility is to construct a life that aligns with the character and teachings of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (NIV):

"If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."

Explanation:
Paul continues to explain that the quality of our building—our deeds, actions, and spiritual growth—will be tested. Building with valuable materials (gold, silver, costly stones) symbolizes actions and character that are in line with God's will. This passage illustrates that believers must actively work on their spiritual development after receiving the foundation of Christ.

2. Ephesians 2:19-22
Ephesians 2:19-22 (NIV):

"Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit."

Explanation:
Paul describes believers as being part of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ as the cornerstone. The metaphor of a building joined together and rising to become a holy temple indicates an ongoing process. This emphasizes the necessity of continuous spiritual growth and unity among believers, aligning with the idea of building upon the foundation received at faith.

3. Colossians 2:6-7
Colossians 2:6-7 (NIV):

"So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness."

Explanation:
Paul urges believers to continue living their lives in Christ after receiving Him as Lord. The phrases "rooted and built up in him" and "strengthened in the faith" highlight the ongoing process of spiritual growth and maturity. This passage reinforces that the foundation of faith in Christ is received, but there is a need for continuous development and building upon that foundation.

4. 1 Peter 2:4-5
1 Peter 2:4-5 (NIV):

"As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him—you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

Explanation:
Peter describes believers as "living stones" being built into a spiritual house, indicating an ongoing construction process. This metaphor emphasizes the collective and continuous nature of spiritual growth and development. The foundation is Christ, the living Stone, but believers must continue to be built up into a spiritual house, signifying the need for active participation in the faith journey.

5. Hebrews 6:1
Hebrews 6:1 (NIV):

"Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God."

Explanation:
The author of Hebrews encourages believers to move beyond the basic teachings about Christ and progress towards maturity. This passage highlights the need for growth and building upon the foundational teachings received at the beginning of faith. It suggests that while the foundation is crucial, believers must advance in their understanding and practice of their faith.

Summary
1 Corinthians 3:11-15: Jesus Christ is the foundational basis, and believers are responsible for building upon it with quality materials representing their deeds and spiritual growth.

Ephesians 2:19-22: Believers are part of God's household, continuously being built into a holy temple, indicating ongoing growth.

Colossians 2:6-7: Believers must continue to live in Christ, being rooted, built up, and strengthened in faith, highlighting continuous development.

1 Peter 2:4-5: Believers are like living stones being built into a spiritual house, emphasizing the collective and ongoing nature of spiritual growth.

Hebrews 6:1: Believers are urged to move beyond elementary teachings and advance towards maturity, building upon the foundational teachings of Christ.

These passages collectively underscore that while the foundation of Christ is received at the point of faith, the believer's journey involves actively building upon this foundation through continuous growth, development, and alignment with God's will. The foundation is not of human origin but is given by God, and our task is to build in a manner that honors and reflects this divine gift.

"That foundation is to build where HE is...not where you are. So you are bringing the uncrucified ego into the mix...therefore you will not be able to build with materials that are holy and perfect."

 

[Johann]

I nearly choked on my popcorn-this can get messy-very quickly.


1. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
1 Corinthians 3:11 (NIV):

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ."

Explanation:
Paul is clear that Jesus Christ is the only true foundation upon which believers can build their lives. This foundation is established by God, not by human effort. Paul emphasizes that believers must build upon this foundation, indicating a continuous process of growth and development in faith. This underscores that while the foundation is received at the point of faith, the believer's responsibility is to construct a life that aligns with the character and teachings of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (NIV):

"If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."

Explanation:
Paul continues to explain that the quality of our building—our deeds, actions, and spiritual growth—will be tested. Building with valuable materials (gold, silver, costly stones) symbolizes actions and character that are in line with God's will. This passage illustrates that believers must actively work on their spiritual development after receiving the foundation of Christ.

2. Ephesians 2:19-22
Ephesians 2:19-22 (NIV):

"Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit."

Explanation:
Paul describes believers as being part of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ as the cornerstone. The metaphor of a building joined together and rising to become a holy temple indicates an ongoing process. This emphasizes the necessity of continuous spiritual growth and unity among believers, aligning with the idea of building upon the foundation received at faith.

3. Colossians 2:6-7
Colossians 2:6-7 (NIV):

"So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness."

Explanation:
Paul urges believers to continue living their lives in Christ after receiving Him as Lord. The phrases "rooted and built up in him" and "strengthened in the faith" highlight the ongoing process of spiritual growth and maturity. This passage reinforces that the foundation of faith in Christ is received, but there is a need for continuous development and building upon that foundation.

4. 1 Peter 2:4-5
1 Peter 2:4-5 (NIV):

"As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him—you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

Explanation:
Peter describes believers as "living stones" being built into a spiritual house, indicating an ongoing construction process. This metaphor emphasizes the collective and continuous nature of spiritual growth and development. The foundation is Christ, the living Stone, but believers must continue to be built up into a spiritual house, signifying the need for active participation in the faith journey.

5. Hebrews 6:1
Hebrews 6:1 (NIV):

"Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God."

Explanation:
The author of Hebrews encourages believers to move beyond the basic teachings about Christ and progress towards maturity. This passage highlights the need for growth and building upon the foundational teachings received at the beginning of faith. It suggests that while the foundation is crucial, believers must advance in their understanding and practice of their faith.

Summary
1 Corinthians 3:11-15: Jesus Christ is the foundational basis, and believers are responsible for building upon it with quality materials representing their deeds and spiritual growth.

Ephesians 2:19-22: Believers are part of God's household, continuously being built into a holy temple, indicating ongoing growth.

Colossians 2:6-7: Believers must continue to live in Christ, being rooted, built up, and strengthened in faith, highlighting continuous development.

1 Peter 2:4-5: Believers are like living stones being built into a spiritual house, emphasizing the collective and ongoing nature of spiritual growth.

Hebrews 6:1: Believers are urged to move beyond elementary teachings and advance towards maturity, building upon the foundational teachings of Christ.

These passages collectively underscore that while the foundation of Christ is received at the point of faith, the believer's journey involves actively building upon this foundation through continuous growth, development, and alignment with God's will. The foundation is not of human origin but is given by God, and our task is to build in a manner that honors and reflects this divine gift.

--and here I ran out of characters--
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

I nearly choked on my popcorn-this can get messy-very quickly.


1. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
1 Corinthians 3:11 (NIV):

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ."

Explanation:
Paul is clear that Jesus Christ is the only true foundation upon which believers can build their lives. This foundation is established by God, not by human effort. Paul emphasizes that believers must build upon this foundation, indicating a continuous process of growth and development in faith. This underscores that while the foundation is received at the point of faith, the believer's responsibility is to construct a life that aligns with the character and teachings of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (NIV):

"If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."

Explanation:
Paul continues to explain that the quality of our building—our deeds, actions, and spiritual growth—will be tested. Building with valuable materials (gold, silver, costly stones) symbolizes actions and character that are in line with God's will. This passage illustrates that believers must actively work on their spiritual development after receiving the foundation of Christ.

2. Ephesians 2:19-22
Ephesians 2:19-22 (NIV):

"Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit."

Explanation:
Paul describes believers as being part of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ as the cornerstone. The metaphor of a building joined together and rising to become a holy temple indicates an ongoing process. This emphasizes the necessity of continuous spiritual growth and unity among believers, aligning with the idea of building upon the foundation received at faith.

3. Colossians 2:6-7
Colossians 2:6-7 (NIV):

"So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness."

Explanation:
Paul urges believers to continue living their lives in Christ after receiving Him as Lord. The phrases "rooted and built up in him" and "strengthened in the faith" highlight the ongoing process of spiritual growth and maturity. This passage reinforces that the foundation of faith in Christ is received, but there is a need for continuous development and building upon that foundation.

4. 1 Peter 2:4-5
1 Peter 2:4-5 (NIV):

"As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him—you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

Explanation:
Peter describes believers as "living stones" being built into a spiritual house, indicating an ongoing construction process. This metaphor emphasizes the collective and continuous nature of spiritual growth and development. The foundation is Christ, the living Stone, but believers must continue to be built up into a spiritual house, signifying the need for active participation in the faith journey.

5. Hebrews 6:1
Hebrews 6:1 (NIV):

"Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God."

Explanation:
The author of Hebrews encourages believers to move beyond the basic teachings about Christ and progress towards maturity. This passage highlights the need for growth and building upon the foundational teachings received at the beginning of faith. It suggests that while the foundation is crucial, believers must advance in their understanding and practice of their faith.

Summary
1 Corinthians 3:11-15: Jesus Christ is the foundational basis, and believers are responsible for building upon it with quality materials representing their deeds and spiritual growth.

Ephesians 2:19-22: Believers are part of God's household, continuously being built into a holy temple, indicating ongoing growth.

Colossians 2:6-7: Believers must continue to live in Christ, being rooted, built up, and strengthened in faith, highlighting continuous development.

1 Peter 2:4-5: Believers are like living stones being built into a spiritual house, emphasizing the collective and ongoing nature of spiritual growth.

Hebrews 6:1: Believers are urged to move beyond elementary teachings and advance towards maturity, building upon the foundational teachings of Christ.

These passages collectively underscore that while the foundation of Christ is received at the point of faith, the believer's journey involves actively building upon this foundation through continuous growth, development, and alignment with God's will. The foundation is not of human origin but is given by God, and our task is to build in a manner that honors and reflects this divine gift.

Yes I agree.....ongoing growth.....but Epi doesn't seem to agree with that......I see he hasn't "liked" your posts.

2 Peter 1 talks about adding to our faith.....and if these things be in you and abound, ie, INCREASE. That speaks to growth.

We are being built into a spiritual house, hence the building materials need to be spiritual, of the Holy Spirit, - not of the earth and flesh and self. Only what is spiritual (of God), hence eternally enduring, can stand the test. Everything else will burn and be shaken...only what can't be shaken will remain (ie, what is of the Spirit).

Not sure my head is too clear, I'm getting tired, but I think Epi means something else by building where Christ is and not where we are, I still can't quite grasp what he is saying.....think he might mean we don't start building until after being "translated into a higher walk." or something like that, I just can't get my head around it. I will say good night for now and try to look at it again in the morning, Lord willing.

 

[Lizbeth]

Consider this...we are to be translated into the kingdom...where our life is hid...where? With Christ IN God. Where I am, Jesus says, so you will there with Me. Seated in heavenly places...

God resides in Zion with those who are humble. Holiness is a place.

For thus says the high and lofty One that inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Is. 57:15

God dwells in Zion...and He takes up the contrite and humble ones to walk with Him WHERE HE IS. That is the higher walk...the 2nd cut.

Believe me I have no argument with the need for humility and contrition..........but weren't we "born in Zion"? Jerusalem that is above is our mother.

A demain.

 

[Johann]

Consider this...we are to be translated into the kingdom...where our life is hid...where? With Christ IN God. Where I am, Jesus says, so you will there with Me. Seated in heavenly places...

Yes I agree.....ongoing growth.....but Epi doesn't seem to agree with that......I see he hasn't "liked" your posts.

2 Peter 1 talks about adding to our faith.....and if these things be in you and abound, ie, INCREASE. That speaks to growth.

We are being built into a spiritual house, hence the building materials need to be spiritual, of the Holy Spirit, - not of the earth and flesh and self. Only what is spiritual (of God), hence eternally enduring, can stand the test. Everything else will burn and be shaken...only what can't be shaken will remain (ie, what is of the Spirit).

Not sure my head is too clear, I'm getting tired, but I think Epi means something else by building where Christ is and not where we are, I still can't quite grasp what he is saying.....think he might mean we don't start building until after being "translated into a higher walk." or something like that, I just can't get my head around it. I will say good night for now and try to look at it again in the morning, Lord willing.

Same here -very tired and just an aside, I don't give a hoot if Epi "like" my posts or not. I will go through his posts re the ongoing growth and why he seem antagonistic against it.

J.

 

[Episkopos]

Same here -very tired and just an aside, I don't give a hoot if Epi "like" my posts or not. I will go through his posts re the ongoing growth and why he seem antagonistic against it.

J.

On what level of growth are we speaking of? There's nothing wrong with growing in the "lower" walk by human faith. Carrying one's own cross is hard...but we can muddle through. As long as we don't make foolish claims about what we are doing...rather being very humble in our carnal state. To be in the minor leagues is fine..and much training can happen there. We can improve our batting average to be sure...but that doesn't mean we can claim to be headed for the hall of fame. To assume that we are in the world's series when we are actually on a farm team...is to live in a fantasy world...as SOOO many do nowadays. Few seem to realize what the gospel is all about...such is the widespread publishing of iniquity.

And what if we are learning and growing? So much the better to go from a straw hut to a solid oak framed house. But neither stands up to the holiness test of fire. Solid oak also burns...it just maybe takes a little longer to burn down than straw.

Building with eternal material that stand up to the fire takes a real intervention from God...WINNING CHRIST...winning Him over to your cause to visit you and equip you to BUY the precious and eternal materials from Him. All this is deliberate and NOT automatic. Jesus wants to know each of us on that level of intimacy. Otherwise it's...who touched Me?

Many will confuse the free gift of Christ IN you with going to God where He is to abide in Him. Many will say that both are automatic. But just as hard as it is for unbelievers to believe in a new spiritual birth...so it is perhaps even harder to convince 1st cut believers that there is a throne of grace we need to go to in order to walk in resurrection life in the full measure of grace.

It's like the 10 lepers who were healed but only one went back to Jesus. And the other 9 went away rejoicing...kind of reminds me of all the rejoicing going on in the religious establishments. Jesus asked "I healed 10, where are the other 9??? We need to show up for the interview, not just hold on tightly to the admission letter (bible) that confirms our access to God.

Of course what I'm speaking of is the real walk...not the religious facsimile that exploits the bible and what Jesus did for the whole world...and divert it to themselves for no reason at all...except maybe self-preservation. He who seeks to save his life will lose it.

 

[Johann]

On what level of growth are we speaking of? There's nothing wrong with growing in the "lower" walk by human faith. Carrying one's own cross is hard...but we can muddle through. As long as we don't make foolish claims about what we are doing...rather being very humble in our carnal state. To be in the minor leagues is fine..and much training can happen there. We can improve our batting average to be sure...but that doesn't mean we can claim to be headed for the hall of fame. To assume that we are in the world's series when we are actually on a farm team...is to live in a fantasy world...as SOOO many do nowadays. Few sem to realize what the gospel is all about...such is the widespread publishing of iniquity.

You let yourself wide open for error and mistakes not working with the Scriptures @Episkopos-no offense.


The journey of faith involves continual growth, but it’s essential to accurately understand what this growth entails according to Scripture.

Corrected Statement:

In addressing the level of spiritual growth, it is crucial to recognize that growth in faith is not solely dependent on human effort but on a transformative relationship with Christ through the Holy Spirit.

1. Growth in Faith and the Need for Divine Empowerment:

There is nothing wrong with recognizing different levels of growth in one’s spiritual journey. However, implying that human faith alone is sufficient undermines the necessity of divine empowerment. Paul emphasizes this in Philippians 2:12-13:

Philippians 2:12-13 (Lexham English Bible): "Therefore, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, continue working out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

κατεργάζεσθε (katergazesthe): Present middle imperative, “work out.” Indicates continuous, active engagement.
ἐνεργῶν (energōn): Present active participle, “is at work.” Reflects ongoing divine action within believers.
2. Humility and Acknowledgment of the Flesh:

Acknowledging our human limitations and the need for humility is essential, but the believer’s life is characterized by the ongoing transformation through the Spirit, not merely muddling through in a carnal state. Romans 8:5-6 emphasizes living by the Spirit:

Romans 8:5-6 (Lexham English Bible): "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mindset of the flesh is death, but the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace."
φρονοῦσιν (phronousin): Present active indicative, “set their minds.” Indicates an ongoing focus or orientation.
ζωὴ (zōē) and εἰρήνη (eirēnē): Nouns indicating “life” and “peace,” the outcomes of a Spirit-led life.
3. True Spiritual Growth and Eternal Perspective:

True growth involves building with eternal materials, representing a life led by the Spirit and founded on Christ. This is emphasized in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15:

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (Lexham English Bible): "Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each one will become evident, for the day will reveal it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work."

οἰκοδομεῖ (oikodomei): Present active indicative, “builds.” Reflects ongoing construction.
φανερὸν γενήσεται (phaneron genēsetai): Future middle indicative, “will become evident.” Indicates a future revelation.

4. Divine Intervention and Intimacy with Christ:

Winning Christ or gaining a deeper relationship with Him is not about persuading Christ to support our cause, but about being transformed into His likeness. Philippians 3:8-10 clarifies this pursuit:

Philippians 3:8-10 (Lexham English Bible): "More than that, I consider all things to be loss because of the surpassing greatness of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for the sake of whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and consider them dung, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having my righteousness which is from the law, but the righteousness through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith, to know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death."

ἡγούμενος (hēgoumenos): Present middle participle, “consider.” Reflects an ongoing mindset.
γνῶναι (gnōnai): Aorist active infinitive, “to know.” Indicates a focused pursuit.

5. Misconceptions About Grace and the Believer’s Responsibility:

Many misunderstand the continuous need for seeking God’s grace and presence. Hebrews 4:16 emphasizes the believer’s ongoing approach to God’s throne of grace:

Hebrews 4:16 (Lexham English Bible): "Therefore let us approach with confidence to the throne of grace, in order that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."

προσερχώμεθα (proserchōmetha): Present middle subjunctive, “let us approach.” Indicates a continuous action.
εὑρῶμεν (heurōmen): Aorist active subjunctive, “find.” Denotes the result of the approach.

6. The Example of the Ten Lepers:

The story of the ten lepers in Luke 17:11-19 illustrates the importance of gratitude and returning to Jesus, not merely receiving the initial gift. Only one leper returned to thank Jesus, emphasizing the importance of an ongoing relationship:

Luke 17:17 (Lexham English Bible): "Then Jesus answered and said, 'Were not ten cleansed? But where are the nine?'"

καθαρίσθησαν (katharisthēsan): Aorist passive indicative, “were cleansed.” Indicates a completed action.
εὑρέθησαν (heurethēsan): Aorist passive indicative, “were found.” Implies the expectation of continuous gratitude.

Hence--

Spiritual growth involves an ongoing, active relationship with Christ, characterized by humility, reliance on the Holy Spirit, and continuous pursuit of deeper intimacy with God. Scriptures like Philippians 2:12-13, Romans 8:5-6, 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, and Hebrews 4:16 emphasize the necessity of divine empowerment, building with eternal materials, and consistently seeking God’s grace. Misunderstandings about the nature of grace and spiritual maturity can lead to complacency, but true growth is marked by a persistent and deepening relationship with Christ, evidenced by ongoing transformation and reliance on the Holy Spirit.

J.

 

[Episkopos]

You let yourself wide open for error and mistakes not working with the Scriptures @Episkopos-no offense.

No offense taken. I am working with the scriptures...from both testaments. And I am ALSO working by experience...knowing the narrow way, how hard it is to get into the kingdom walk...the full surrender...the whole-hearted crying out to God. That may happen once in a lifetime where we NEED God to that extent. Or for many, that will never happen. People tend to comfort themselves and learn to be self-reliant...to survive. But God looks for people who would NOT survive without Him. It just so happens that God has heard that cry from me twice and responded by translation into the kingdom walk. And the second time I hung on for about 2 and half years. So then my qualification is not just having studied the bible carefully for 44 years...being guided by the Spirit throughout...but ALSO to have many visitations and lasting intimacy that informs the words of the bible...giving them an eternal weight. And this is the issue in the end. The glory (Kavod) is in the weight or depth of understanding. The glory is in the higher walk. The initial grace and the deposit of grace in the inner man are there as a living HOPE of glory...not the glory itself. To experience glory we need to go to where He is...in the high and holy place.

The journey of faith involves continual growth, but it’s essential to accurately understand what this growth entails according to Scripture.

Corrected Statement:

In addressing the level of spiritual growth, it is crucial to recognize that growth in faith is not solely dependent on human effort but on a transformative relationship with Christ through the Holy Spirit.

God will help us on more than one level. As human beings...we can assume that the level God is working with us on, is the only one. Then it is an error of omission...leading to assumptions and presumptions as we see in the church of Laodicea.

Holiness brings a much harder judgment. We should fear instead of having a superficial reaction that assumes we are not doing abominations against the Lord's name.

1. Growth in Faith and the Need for Divine Empowerment:

There is nothing wrong with recognizing different levels of growth in one’s spiritual journey. However, implying that human faith alone is sufficient undermines the necessity of divine empowerment. Paul emphasizes this in Philippians 2:12-13:

Philippians 2:12-13 (Lexham English Bible): "Therefore, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, continue working out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

κατεργάζεσθε (katergazesthe): Present middle imperative, “work out.” Indicates continuous, active engagement.
ἐνεργῶν (energōn): Present active participle, “is at work.” Reflects ongoing divine action within believers.
2. Humility and Acknowledgment of the Flesh:

Acknowledging our human limitations and the need for humility is essential, but the believer’s life is characterized by the ongoing transformation through the Spirit, not merely muddling through in a carnal state. Romans 8:5-6 emphasizes living by the Spirit:

Romans 8:5-6 (Lexham English Bible): "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mindset of the flesh is death, but the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace."
φρονοῦσιν (phronousin): Present active indicative, “set their minds.” Indicates an ongoing focus or orientation.
ζωὴ (zōē) and εἰρήνη (eirēnē): Nouns indicating “life” and “peace,” the outcomes of a Spirit-led life.
3. True Spiritual Growth and Eternal Perspective:

True growth involves building with eternal materials, representing a life led by the Spirit and founded on Christ. This is emphasized in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15:

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (Lexham English Bible): "Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each one will become evident, for the day will reveal it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work."

οἰκοδομεῖ (oikodomei): Present active indicative, “builds.” Reflects ongoing construction.
φανερὸν γενήσεται (phaneron genēsetai): Future middle indicative, “will become evident.” Indicates a future revelation.

4. Divine Intervention and Intimacy with Christ:

Winning Christ or gaining a deeper relationship with Him is not about persuading Christ to support our cause, but about being transformed into His likeness. Philippians 3:8-10 clarifies this pursuit:

Philippians 3:8-10 (Lexham English Bible): "More than that, I consider all things to be loss because of the surpassing greatness of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for the sake of whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and consider them dung, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having my righteousness which is from the law, but the righteousness through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith, to know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death."

ἡγούμενος (hēgoumenos): Present middle participle, “consider.” Reflects an ongoing mindset.
γνῶναι (gnōnai): Aorist active infinitive, “to know.” Indicates a focused pursuit.

5. Misconceptions About Grace and the Believer’s Responsibility:

Many misunderstand the continuous need for seeking God’s grace and presence. Hebrews 4:16 emphasizes the believer’s ongoing approach to God’s throne of grace:

Hebrews 4:16 (Lexham English Bible): "Therefore let us approach with confidence to the throne of grace, in order that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."

προσερχώμεθα (proserchōmetha): Present middle subjunctive, “let us approach.” Indicates a continuous action.
εὑρῶμεν (heurōmen): Aorist active subjunctive, “find.” Denotes the result of the approach.

6. The Example of the Ten Lepers:

The story of the ten lepers in Luke 17:11-19 illustrates the importance of gratitude and returning to Jesus, not merely receiving the initial gift. Only one leper returned to thank Jesus, emphasizing the importance of an ongoing relationship:

Luke 17:17 (Lexham English Bible): "Then Jesus answered and said, 'Were not ten cleansed? But where are the nine?'"

καθαρίσθησαν (katharisthēsan): Aorist passive indicative, “were cleansed.” Indicates a completed action.
εὑρέθησαν (heurethēsan): Aorist passive indicative, “were found.” Implies the expectation of continuous gratitude.

Hence--

Spiritual growth involves an ongoing, active relationship with Christ, characterized by humility, reliance on the Holy Spirit, and continuous pursuit of deeper intimacy with God. Scriptures like Philippians 2:12-13, Romans 8:5-6, 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, and Hebrews 4:16 emphasize the necessity of divine empowerment, building with eternal materials, and consistently seeking God’s grace. Misunderstandings about the nature of grace and spiritual maturity can lead to complacency, but true growth is marked by a persistent and deepening relationship with Christ, evidenced by ongoing transformation and reliance on the Holy Spirit.

J.

An ongoing transformation? Learning to be more patient? Learning to read the bible more? What are we comparing to? Moving one mountain or two?

The purpose of faith in God's eyes is that He would be MOVED by it to come to us and elevate our walk to His level...in holiness. That's why we are to believe. On the more basic level our own faith helps us to avoid God's wrath by submitting to His laws to obey them. If we believe the Lord, we will obey Him...on either level, or both.

So then let each person do as they see fit. Take my testimony and my deeper insight into the bible narrative and write it off. In the end people will do as they want to. Short of silencing me and my testimony, one could just write me off...OR keep in mind the warnings that must come to those who seek God diligently. Without that diligence people will skim over all the warnings thinking...that can't be for me.

 

[Lizbeth]

Same here -very tired and just an aside, I don't give a hoot if Epi "like" my posts or not. I will go through his posts re the ongoing growth and why he seem antagonistic against it.

J.

Oh I know, I was just observing.

The concept of growth is all over the scriptures. Don't know how anyone can ignore it.

On what level of growth are we speaking of? There's nothing wrong with growing in the "lower" walk by human faith. Carrying one's own cross is hard...but we can muddle through. As long as we don't make foolish claims about what we are doing...rather being very humble in our carnal state. To be in the minor leagues is fine..and much training can happen there. We can improve our batting average to be sure...but that doesn't mean we can claim to be headed for the hall of fame. To assume that we are in the world's series when we are actually on a farm team...is to live in a fantasy world...as SOOO many do nowadays. Few sem to realize what the gospel is all about...such is the widespread publishing of iniquity.

And what if we are learning and growing? So much the better to go from a straw hut to a solid oak framed house. But neither stands up to the holiness test of fire. Solid oak also burns...it just maybe takes a little longer to burn down than straw.

Building with eternal material that stand up to the fire takes a real intervention from God...WINNING CHRIST...winning Him over to your cause to visit you and equip you to BUY the precious and eternal materials from Him. All this is deliberate and NOT automatic. Jesus wants to know each of us on that level of intimacy. Otherwise it's...who touched Me?

Many will confuse the free gift of Christ IN you with going to God where He is to abide in Him. Many will say that both are automatic. But just as hard as it is for unbelievers to believe in a new spiritual birth...so it is perhaps even harder to convince 1st cut believers that there is a throne of grace we need to go to in order to walk in resurrection life in the full measure of grace.

It's like the 10 lepers who were healed but only one went back to Jesus. And the other 9 went away rejoicing...kind of reminds me of all the rejoicing going on in the religious establishments. Jesus asked "I healed 10, where are the other 9??? We need to show up for the interview, not just hold on tightly to the admission letter (bible) that confirms our access to God.

Of course what I'm speaking of is the real walk...not the religious facsimile that exploits the bible and what Jesus did for the whole world...and divert it to themselves for no reason at all...except maybe self-preservation. He who seeks to save his life will lose it.

Eph 4:11-16

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.



These scriptures are not talking about a limited level of growth and increase but are clearly talking about potentially being perfected and matured into our full potential. Now that doesn’t have to rule out the idea of a “second blessing” though….if we think in terms of someone as yet only betrothed but preparing herself and growing until finally she is ready and the wedding/union takes place.

("Being no more children....." To my understanding betrothals were typically entered into when one was very young back in Israel of old, still children...the wedding had to wait until the bride was grown up enough to marry, and the Groom on his side likewise was preparing a "place" for her. This would just seem to add more weight to the idea of growth.)

 

[Johann]

The purpose of faith in God's eyes is that He would be MOVED by it to come to us and elevate our walk to His level...in holiness. That's why we are to believe. On the more basic level our own faith helps us to avoid God's wrath by submitting to His laws to obey them. If we believe the Lord, we will obey Him...on either level, or both.

קִדּוּשׁ (qiddush) or קְדֻשָּׁה (qedushah)

Corrected Statement:

The purpose of faith, according to God's design, is not to move God to come to us, but to trust in His promises and to enable us to live in a relationship with Him through His grace. Faith is about trusting in God's character and His redemptive work through Jesus Christ, resulting in a transformed life. Believing in God leads to obedience, but it is God who initiates and sustains our walk in holiness through the Holy Spirit. Our faith does not earn God's favor or elevate our walk; rather, it is our response to His grace and work in us.

Scriptural Support and Analysis:

Faith as Trust in God's Promises and Grace:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (Lexham English Bible): "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast."
χάριτί (chariti): Dative singular of χάρις (charis), meaning "grace." Indicates the means by which salvation is received.
πίστεως (pisteōs): Genitive singular of πίστις (pistis), meaning "faith." Refers to the means by which grace is appropriated.
δῶρον (dōron): Nominative singular, “gift.” Emphasizes that salvation is a gift from God.
Faith Leading to Obedience Through the Holy Spirit:

Romans 1:5 (Lexham English Bible): "Through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles on behalf of his name."

ὑπακοὴν πίστεως (hypakoēn pisteōs): Accusative singular, “obedience of faith.” Indicates that faith results in obedience.
Galatians 5:16 (Lexham English Bible): "But I say, live by the Spirit, and you will never carry out the desire of the flesh."

Πνεύματι (Pneumati): Dative singular of Πνεῦμα (Pneuma), meaning "Spirit." Refers to the Holy Spirit.
περιπατεῖτε (peripateite): Present active imperative, “live” or “walk.” Indicates continuous action in reliance on the Spirit.
Faith and Avoiding God's Wrath:

Romans 5:1 (Lexham English Bible): "Therefore, because we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
δικαιωθέντες (dikaiōthentes): Aorist passive participle, “declared righteous.” Indicates a completed action of being justified.
πίστεως (pisteōs): Genitive singular of πίστις (pistis), “faith.” Refers to the means by which justification is received.
εἰρήνην (eirēnēn): Accusative singular, “peace.” Refers to the result of being justified by faith.
Faith as a Response to God's Initiation:

1 John 4:19 (Lexham English Bible): "We love because he first loved us."
ἡμεῖς ἀγαπῶμεν (hēmeis agapōmen): Present active indicative, “we love.” Indicates ongoing action.
ὅτι αὐτὸς πρῶτος ἠγάπησεν (hoti autos prōtos ēgapēsen): “because he first loved.” Indicates that God’s love is the initiating factor.
God's Work in Us Through Faith:

Philippians 2:12-13 (Lexham English Bible): "Therefore, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, continue working out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
κατεργάζεσθε (katergazesthe): Present middle imperative, “work out.” Indicates continuous, active engagement.
ἐνεργῶν (energōn): Present active participle, “is at work.” Reflects ongoing divine action within believers.
Conclusion:

Faith is about trusting in God’s promises and His redemptive work through Jesus Christ. It leads to a transformed life, characterized by obedience through the power of the Holy Spirit. Faith does not move God to elevate us to holiness; rather, it is our response to His grace and work in us. Our salvation and sanctification are initiated and sustained by God, not by our efforts.

Scriptures like Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 1:5, and Philippians 2:12-13 emphasize that faith is a gift from God and that our growth in holiness is a result of His ongoing work in our lives through the Holy Spirit.

You cannot dismiss the ongoing, sanctifying work of the Ruach HaKodesh and קִדּוּשׁ (qiddush) or קְדֻשָּׁה (qedushah) in our lives @Episkopos

J.

 

[Johann]

The concept of growth is all over the scriptures.

Correct you are sister-the concept of growth is pervading in Scriptures!

Psalm 1:3 (Lexham English Bible)

"And he will be like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither; in all that he does, he prospers."
This verse metaphorically describes the growth and prosperity of the righteous person who meditates on God's law.
Proverbs 4:18 (Lexham English Bible)

"But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until full day."
This verse illustrates the progressive growth in righteousness and wisdom.
Isaiah 40:31 (Lexham English Bible)

"But those who wait for Yahweh shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint."
This passage speaks to the renewal and growth in strength for those who trust in the Lord.
Hosea 14:5-7 (Lexham English Bible)

"I will be like the dew to Israel; he will blossom like the lily, he will take root like the trees of Lebanon. His shoots will spread out; his beauty will be like the olive tree, and his fragrance like the trees of Lebanon."
This describes the growth and flourishing of Israel when they return to God.
Psalm 92:12-14 (Lexham English Bible)

"The righteous will flourish like the palm tree; they will grow like a cedar in Lebanon. Planted in the house of Yahweh, they will flourish in the courts of our God. They will still bear fruit in old age; they will be full of sap and green."
This passage uses the imagery of trees to describe the enduring growth and fruitfulness of the righteous.
New Testament Examples:
Ephesians 4:15-16 (Lexham English Bible)

"But speaking the truth in love, we are to grow into him who is the head, Christ, from whom the whole body, being joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love."
This speaks of spiritual growth within the body of Christ, emphasizing unity and maturity.
2 Peter 3:18 (Lexham English Bible)

"But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen."
This verse encourages believers to grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:9-10 (Lexham English Bible)

"For this reason also, from the day we heard this, we have not ceased praying for you and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you may live worthily of the Lord, to please him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God."
This passage highlights growth in spiritual wisdom and understanding, leading to fruitful living.
1 Peter 2:2 (Lexham English Bible)

"Like newborn infants, long for the unadulterated spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up to salvation."
This verse uses the metaphor of infants growing by milk to describe spiritual growth.
Philippians 1:9-11 (Lexham English Bible)

"And this I pray: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve what is superior, in order that you may be sincere and blameless in the day of Christ, having been filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ to the glory and praise of God."
This prayer for the Philippians emphasizes growth in love, knowledge, discernment, and righteousness.
Summary:
These verses from both the Old and New Testaments illustrate the biblical concept of growth in various aspects of life, including spiritual, moral, and communal development. They emphasize the importance of relying on God, meditating on His word, and growing in knowledge, wisdom, and love.

J.

 

[Johann]

So then my qualification is not just having studied the bible carefully for 44 years...being guided by the Spirit throughout...but ALSO to have many visitations and lasting intimacy that informs the words of the bible...giving them an eternal weight. And this is the issue in the end. The glory (Kavod) is in the weight or depth of understanding. The glory is in the higher walk. The initial grace and the deposit of grace in the inner man are there as a living HOPE of glory...not the glory itself. To experience glory we need to go to where He is...in the high and holy place.

Appreciate your testimony brother-but I don't receive visitations and HAVE to live by faith, but I don't make light of your experiences.
Johann.

Key Hebrew Term: כָּבוֹד (Kavod)
Meaning and Usage:

כָּבוֹד (kavod): This noun generally means "glory," "honor," "splendor," or "majesty." It often conveys a sense of heaviness or weightiness, reflecting something of great importance and value.
Root: The root כבד (k-b-d) carries the primary sense of being heavy or weighty, which metaphorically extends to being important or honored.
Examples in Scripture:

Exodus 24:16-17 (Lexham English Bible):

"And the glory of Yahweh settled on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it for six days. And on the seventh day he called to Moses from the midst of the cloud. And the appearance of the glory of Yahweh was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain to the eyes of the Israelites."
Hebrew: וַיִּשְׁכֹּן כְּבוֹד־יְהוָה עַל־הַר סִינַי וַיְכַסֵּהוּ הֶעָנָן שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים וַיִּקְרָא אֶל־מֹשֶׁה בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי מִתּוֹךְ הֶעָנָן׃ וּמַרְאֵה כְּבוֹד־יְהוָה כְּאֵשׁ אֹכֶלֶת בְּרֹאשׁ הָהָר לְעֵינֵי בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל
Psalm 19:1 (Lexham English Bible):

"The heavens are telling the glory of God, and the expanse proclaims the work of his hands."
Hebrew: הַשָּׁמַיִם מְסַפְּרִים כְּבוֹד אֵל וּמַעֲשֵׂה יָדָיו מַגִּיד הָרָקִיעַ
Isaiah 6:3 (Lexham English Bible):

"And one called to another and said, 'Holy, holy, holy is Yahweh of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.'"
Hebrew: וְקָרָא זֶה אֶל־זֶה וְאָמַר קָדוֹשׁ קָדוֹשׁ קָדוֹשׁ יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת מְלֹא כָל־הָאָרֶץ כְּבוֹדוֹ
1 Chronicles 16:24 (Lexham English Bible):

"Declare his glory among the nations, his marvelous works among all the peoples!"
Hebrew: סַפְּרוּ בַגּוֹיִם אֶת־כְּבוֹדוֹ בְּכָל־הָעַמִּים נִפְלְאוֹתָיו
Psalm 29:1-2 (Lexham English Bible):

"Ascribe to Yahweh, O sons of God, ascribe to Yahweh glory and strength. Ascribe to Yahweh the glory due his name; worship Yahweh in holy array."
Hebrew: הָבוּ לַיהוָה בְּנֵי אֵלִים הָבוּ לַיהוָה כָּבוֹד וָעֹז׃ הָבוּ לַיהוָה כְּבוֹד שְׁמוֹ הִשְׁתַּחֲווּ לַיהוָה בְּהַדְרַת־קֹדֶשׁ
Summary
In Hebrew, כָּבוֹד (kavod) encompasses a range of meanings related to glory, honor, and splendor. It signifies something of great weight and importance, reflecting the majesty and divine presence of God. This term is used to describe God's inherent glory, the manifestation of His presence, and the honor due to Him. The various scriptural references illustrate how כָּבוֹד is applied in different contexts, from the revelation of God's glory on Mount Sinai to the call for all creation to declare His splendor.

 

[Episkopos]

Corrected Statement:

The purpose of faith, according to God's design, is not to move God to come to us, but to trust in His promises and to enable us to live in a relationship with Him through His grace.

Correction of Corrected statement ;)

Without faith it is impossible to please God...not a bible. Why do you not want God's visitation? Is the bible enough? The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. Not in the oldness of the letter but the newness of the Spirit.

What do you do with verses that say things like...He has translated us into the kingdom of His Dear Son? You HAVE to reduce that to a religious dogma IF God only wants you to have a relationship with a bible. And that is exactly what happens. That's how I know a person has never experienced holiness at all. No testimony of a heavenly walk.

What about being seated in heavenly places? Is that the same as being seated in front of a bible? Reading the bible correctly makes us seek after God for the same experiences we read about in the NT testimony. Reading the bible as an end in itself....well, that's religion. No power, no life, no love,

Faith is about trusting in God's character and His redemptive work through Jesus Christ, resulting in a transformed life.

We could say that the words of God have an effect on people by motivating them to want to obey. And this is good. What is wrong is to bring down all the miraculous grace testified to in the bible to that basic level whereby we do our best (As per Romans 7) to do God's will...but are unable to walk as Jesus walked.

Believing in God leads to obedience,

Yes...in our own best efforts....which is good

but it is God who initiates and sustains our walk in holiness through the Holy Spirit.

That's why we need to go to Him. A walk in holiness is to walk WHERE He is in the high and holy place. When we thus abide in HIm our walk is the same as Jesus' on the earth. As He is so are we in Him.

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1 John 4:17

Our faith does not earn God's favor or elevate our walk;

It does...from faith to faith. From our faith INTO the faith OF Christ. We earn God's favour by our faith. He then empowers that faith...elevates it by a gift of grace...to walk as Jesus walked in the faith OF Christ...to walk in an impossible way for ordinary men.

rather, it is our response to His grace and work in us.

S

Again, this can happen on either level.

 

[Ritajanice]

Correction of Corrected statement ;)

Without faith it is impossible to please God...not a bible. Why do you not want God's visitation? Is the bible enough? The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. Not in the oldness of the letter but the newness of the Spirit.

What do you do with verses that say things like...He has translated us into the kingdom of His Dear Son? You HAVE to reduce that to a religious dogma IF God only wants you to have a relationship with a bible. And that is exactly what happens. That's how I know a person has never experienced holiness at all. No testimony of a heavenly walk.

100% agree with this and Amen!!!

1 Corinthians 2:14 ►

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. New Living Translation But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. English Standard Version The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. Berean Standard Bible The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. Berean Literal Bible But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned. King James Bible But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Johann]

Correction of Corrected statement ;)

Without faith it is impossible to please God...not a bible. Why do you not want God's visitation? Is the bible enough? The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. Not in the oldness of the letter but the newness of the Spirit.

Correction of Corrected statement;)
Corrected Statement:

Faith is indeed essential for pleasing God, as Hebrews 11:6 states, "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." However, it is important to understand that the Bible itself teaches the importance of faith as a means of accessing God's grace and receiving His promises. The Scriptures serve as a guide and revelation of God's will, but they are not an end in themselves. While the Bible is vital for our spiritual growth and understanding, it is the Holy Spirit who brings its truths to life and empowers us to live them out.

The statement rightly points out the danger of legalism, emphasizing the need for a living relationship with God rather than mere adherence to religious rituals or legalistic interpretations of scripture.

As 2 Corinthians 3:6 affirms, "Who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

2Co 3:7 Now if the sherut of mavet chiseled in letters engraved on luchot of stone came with kavod (glory), so that the Bnei Yisroel were not able to gaze into the face of Moshe Rabbeinu because of P'NI MOSHE KI KARON ("face of Moshe Rabbeinu that he was radiant" SHEMOT 34:35) because of the kavod (glory) of his face, the kavod (glory) which is fading, [SHEMOT 34:29-34; YESHAYAH 42:21]
2Co 3:8 Then how much more will the avodas kodesh ministry of the Ruach Hakodesh come in kavod (glory)?

CONTEXT

The context of 2 Corinthians 3:6 is within the broader discussion of Paul's ministry and the superiority of the new covenant over the old covenant. In this passage, Paul contrasts the ministry of the old covenant, which was characterized by the law written on stone tablets (the letter), with the ministry of the new covenant, which is characterized by the work of the Holy Spirit (the Spirit).

Paul emphasizes that God has made him and his fellow ministers competent to serve in the new covenant ministry. This competency is not based on their own abilities or qualifications but comes from God's grace and empowerment. Unlike the ministry of the old covenant, which relied on adherence to the letter of the law, the ministry of the new covenant is empowered by the Holy Spirit.

The phrase "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" underscores the contrast between legalism and grace. The letter of the law, when divorced from the transforming power of the Spirit, brings condemnation and death because no one can perfectly fulfill its demands. However, the Spirit brings life and freedom, enabling believers to live in obedience to God's will and experience the fullness of His grace.

In summary, 2 Corinthians 3:6 highlights the transformative nature of the new covenant ministry, which operates by the power of the Holy Spirit rather than legalistic adherence to the letter of the law. This passage emphasizes the central role of the Spirit in bringing life and empowerment to believers under the new covenant.

Therefore, while we honor the importance of the Bible as God's Word, we must also recognize the indispensable role of the Holy Spirit in illuminating its truths, transforming our hearts, and enabling us to walk in obedience and intimacy with God.

This corrected statement aligns with biblical principles, emphasizing the significance of faith, the role of the Bible, and the necessity of the Holy Spirit for true spiritual life and growth.

J.

 

[Johann]

What do you do with verses that say things like...He has translated us into the kingdom of His Dear Son? You HAVE to reduce that to a religious dogma IF God only wants you to have a relationship with a bible. And that is exactly what happens. That's how I know a person has never experienced holiness at all. No testimony of a heavenly walk.

What about being seated in heavenly places? Is that the same as being seated in front of a bible? Reading the bible correctly makes us seek after God for the same experiences we read about in the NT testimony. Reading the bible as an end in itself....well, that's religion. No power, no life, no love,

Corrected Statement:

When we encounter verses such as Colossians 1:13, which declares that God "has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son," reducing such profound truths to mere religious dogma fails to grasp the depth of our relationship with God.

This verse, along with Ephesians 2:6, which speaks of being "raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," invites us into a dynamic relationship with God that transcends mere intellectual engagement with the Bible.

The Scriptures indeed serve as a vital guide for our faith and practice, but they also point us to an intimate relationship with God Himself. For instance, Revelation 3:20 portrays Jesus saying, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me." This verse illustrates the personal and relational nature of our walk with Christ.

Reading the Bible with a heart open to the leading of the Holy Spirit enables us to seek after the same experiences we read about in the New Testament. It's not about simply reading words on a page but encountering the living God who desires to reveal Himself to us. Acts 17:27 assures us that God "is actually not far from each one of us."

Therefore, reading the Bible should never be an end in itself, leading to a lifeless religion devoid of power and love. Instead, it should ignite within us a passionate pursuit of God Himself, leading to a vibrant relationship characterized by His presence, power, and love.

By grounding the statement in these Scriptures, we highlight the importance of a dynamic relationship with God over mere intellectual engagement with the Bible, emphasizing the transformative power of encountering God's presence through His Word.

Why should I rely on experiences when my Bible is sufficient, God breathed and full of emes?

J.

 

[Behold]

having studied the bible carefully for 44 years...being guided by the Spirit throughout

And yet that "Spirit" never led you to understand that the Cross is where FORGIVENESS of SIN, is found.

And you have denied at least 3X that The Blood of Jesus, that is the Cross of Christ, is "about forgiveness".

So, that's interesting, isn't it? As the Holy Spirit would know that....yet you dont., according to your own statements. @Episkopos

 

[Lizbeth]

Without faith it is impossible to please God...not a bible. Why do you not want God's visitation? Is the bible enough? The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. Not in the oldness of the letter but the newness of the Spirit.

Problem with this is that it makes assumptions and insinuates that the one you are speaking to would reject a visitation from God and that they are not approaching the scriptures through the Holy Spirit and that they aren't serving in the new way of the Spirit. Unfortunately you do that a lot, make assumptions and accusations just based on whether someone disagrees with you about something not even related to those things you are accusing and insinuating. Just saying, no response needed....carry on.