Dependence—Not Independence

[Netchaplain]

Scripture teaches it is God Himself and not the believer, who causes His will to be maintained in his life; which means it is also God Himself who carries out the doing of His will—by the life of the believer (Phil 2:13), through His guidance (Psa 37:23; Prov 3:6).

When God’s Word admonishes to do or be something, I like interpreting this with the understanding that it is God Himself who is performing the doing of it—but using our minds and bodies, e.g., when others “see your good works,” which “glorify your Father,” (Matt 5:16) it is the believer they see, but it is the Father who is working (through His Son and Their Spirit).

For example, “Be ye holy; for I am holy” (1 Pet 1:16) does not design the intention of self-made holiness, or self-made righteousness for that matter, but intends the assumption that this will be present within you, since Christ is in you (from whom only it originates then emanates from the believer). Therefore, we depend not on self to produce but to be, “partakers of the (His) divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4).
-NC

 

[Axehead]

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

 

[Netchaplain]

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Hi Axhead - What you posted here will be a part of the believer's life, but I'm trying to emphasize how it is done. I believe there are three mindsets concerning how the believer can conceive being used by God to do His will. By the power of self; by the Spirit helping self, or by allowing (yielding) the Spirit Himself working--using ourselves (as stated in the post).

Many believers may never realize the difference between the three listed above and will have to struggle onward instead of "resting" in God. This seems passive in responsibility but the point is centering on Christ's sake, not ours.

I admit to the difficulty in understanding this concept but I believe it is the pinnacle of teaching us our fellowship with God. It is not to be ourselves working with God's help, but it's God Himself working--using us; "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the LORD of hosts" (Zec 4:6).

This is a part of my post #1 in the devotional category, "None But The Hungry Heart"; "The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, or our trying to be Christ-like, nor is it Christ giving us the power to live a life like His; but it is Christ Himself living His own life through us; 'no longer I, but Christ." -MJS

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axhead - What you posted here will be a part of the believer's life, but I'm trying to emphasize how it is done. I believe there are three mindsets concerning how the believer can conceive being used by God to do His will. By the power of self; by the Spirit helping self, or by allowing (yielding) the Spirit Himself working--using ourselves (as stated in the post).

Many believers may never realize the difference between the three listed above and will have to struggle onward instead of "resting" in God. This seems passive in responsibility but the point is centering on Christ's sake, not ours.

I admit to the difficulty in understanding this concept but I believe it is the pinnacle of teaching us our fellowship with God. It is not to be ourselves working with God's help, but it's God Himself working--using us; "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the LORD of hosts" (Zec 4:6).

This is a part of my post #1 in the devotional category, "None But The Hungry Heart"; "The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, or our trying to be Christ-like, nor is it Christ giving us the power to live a life like His; but it is Christ Himself living His own life through us; 'no longer I, but Christ." -MJS

Amen. Christ living through us. As we desire that and learn to cooperate (deny the flesh) with the Spirit our will lines up with His will more and more (maturity).

Not my will but thy will be done.

Some might think that there is no role for the Believer to play but as in all relationships, it takes 2 to make it work. Jesus does not impose His will on the Believer or make us automatons. We are not assimilated into the "Borg". Though we are part of the Church, we maintain our individuality in the Lord and He looks for us to willingly bring our wills into harmony with His.

 

[Netchaplain]

Amen. Christ living through us. As we desire that and learn to cooperate (deny the flesh) with the Spirit our will lines up with His will more and more (maturity).

Not my will but thy will be done.

Some might think that there is no role for the Believer to play but as in all relationships, it takes 2 to make it work. Jesus does not impose His will on the Believer or make us automatons. We are not assimilated into the "Borg". Though we are part of the Church, we maintain our individuality in the Lord and He looks for us to willingly bring our wills into harmony with His.

I believe our part is in yielding to the Spirit working in and by us and the more yielding, the more success. This is difficult to understand but it has to do with who's doing the work and who's using who.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

In many ways I can relate to much of what the OP says.

I have been given precise tasks from above that I will work diligently on for a time and then for some reason it gets set aside for a while and then a whole bunch more lands on my desk and away I go again

During the times of inactivity I used to blame myself and feel guilty .... until I began to contemplate that maybe that was part of the plan.

Once I look backwards I can see the merits of it ..... but i still get impatient when things do not go as fast as I would like. I am talking about precise tasks from above that are profoundly important ..... yet I remain sitting on the info and keep it to myself.

I have come to realize that I am not the timekeeper .... so instead of feeling guilty I relax and await the next burst of action .

I like to describe those times as "peaceful frustration" ..... mostly peaceful flavored with my impatience

 

[Axehead]

I believe our part is in yielding to the Spirit working in and by us and the more yielding, the more success. This is difficult to understand but it has to do with who's doing the work and who's using who.

Amen, we are called to deny self and agree with His will. That takes cooperation and yielding. We are workers in His vineyard, not ours. We are building His kingdom not ours. He has all the plans, we don't know how to do it. Without Him we can do nothing. Conversely, only with Him can we do anything worthwhile. He said, "greater things than He did we will do because He goes to His Father". But we cannot do those things without Him.

 

[Netchaplain]

Amen, we are called to deny self and agree with His will. That takes cooperation and yielding. We are workers in His vineyard, not ours. We are building His kingdom not ours. He has all the plans, we don't know how to do it. Without Him we can do nothing. Conversely, only with Him can we do anything worthwhile. He said, "greater things than He did we will do because He goes to His Father". But we cannot do those things without Him.

Amen Ax! This makes me want to share with you what John Gill commented concerning John 14:12:

"And greater works than these shall he do; meaning, not greater in nature and kind, but more in number; for the apostles, in a long series of time, and course of years, went about preaching the Gospel, not in Judea only, but in all the world; "God also bearing them witness with signs and wonders, and divers miracles and gifts of the Holy Ghost," Hebrews 2:4,wherever they went.

Though perhaps by these greater works may be meant the many instances of conversion, which the apostles were instrumental in, and which were more in number than those which were under our Lord's personal ministry: besides, the conversion of a sinner is a greater work than any of the miracles of raising the dead,for this includes in it all miracles.

Here we may see a sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, quickened; one born blind made to see; one who was deaf to the threatenings of the law, and to the charming voice of the Gospel, made to hear, so as to live; and one that had the spreading leprosy of sin all over him, cleansed from it by the blood of the Lamb yea, though a miracle in nature is an instance and proof of divine power, yet the conversion of a sinner, which is a miracle in grace, is not only an instance of the power of God, and of the greatness of it, but of the exceeding greatness of it."

 

[Axehead]

John Gill has lots of opinions and some I like. I am not so sure that Jesus was speaking quantitatively since He is not really a "numbers man". We know men are, but God looks for quality.

 

[Netchaplain]

John Gill has lots of opinions and some I like. I am not so sure that Jesus was speaking quantitatively since He is not really a "numbers man". We know men are, but God looks for quality.

I know what you mean, but there's nothing else remaining to base a reference to.

 

[Axehead]

I know what you mean, but there's nothing else remaining to base a reference to.

There is always the character of God and the words of Jesus.

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi brethren,

I can't help asking (from your second post, NC, is '...or by allowing (yielding) the Spirit Himself working--using ourselves', really the same as what Paul described in Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me, or Galatians 5:24 '... they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit?

 

[Netchaplain]

Hi brethren,

I can't help asking (from your second post, NC, is '...or by allowing (yielding) the Spirit Himself working--using ourselves', really the same as what Paul described in Galatians 2:20 [/size]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me, or Galatians 5:24 '... [/size]they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 [/size]If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit?

Hi DF - Been missing you some, good to hear from you. I believe your answer lies within how one interprets the last passage you listed; "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." To me, I relate to this in two ways.

It shows me that one can have the Spirit but not be led by Him (Gal 5:18) due to not maturing yet beyond the carnal-babe-in-Christ stage (1 Cor 3:1). The more significant issue in this passage, to me, is how one chooses to interpret "walk in the Spirit." I myself believe the issue here is who's doing the doing.

Is it self doing the work using the Spirit or is it the Spirit doing the work using self. I find the latter more reasonable because it maintains the theme, "that in all things He might have the preeminence" (Col 1:18) and it is to be done, not by us but by His Spirit (Eze 4:6). It's no longer our life that's being lived but Christ living His life in and by us, for now it is "Christ, who is our life" (Col 3:4). This is why it's all about yielding and not wielding.

For example, when Scripture writes that "they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh," I like interpreting it as--they that have had the flesh crucified, that is, by the Spirit and not by the believer, who is powerless to such a task. Similar to "if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body" (Rom 8:13). I prefer interpreting this as--if the deeds of the body are mortified by the Spirit.

How one chooses to conclude it, whether it is the believer working using the Spirit or the Spirit working using the believer, it only determines a restful attitude or a struggling one, because regardless our understanding, "it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).

His Best For Our Worst
Your Brother Bob

 

[dragonfly]

For example, when Scripture writes that "they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh," I like interpreting it as--they that have had the flesh crucified, that is, by the Spirit and not by the believer, who is powerless to such a task. Similar to "if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body" (Rom 8:13). I prefer interpreting this as--if the deeds of the body are mortified by the Spirit.

Hi Bob,

You have made my point for me. You don't really believe what Paul wrote about mortification - that the believer does 'do' whatever is necessary to inhibit the life of the flesh until it is dead. The believer is enabled to do this with the help of the Spirit. And Paul even lists the human interests which are never to be allowed to persist, so that their demise does not depend on our feelings or inclinations. They are to be mortified. Period.

If the Spirit's arrival initiated and completed the mortification of the flesh without our co-operation, then we would all be instantly reforemed in our flesh life. But instead, there is a constant testing going on, that we may both prove, and be proved, to be overcoming, and in God's will.

The use of the word 'self' is always a bit dodgy, I think, since we are supposed to have been buried with Christ. Mortification is the making good of that burial in our daily lives (walk), as we battle not only the flesh, but the many abstract forms of opposition which seek to divert us. The weight of scripture is definitely on the individual to make sure certain attitudes and activities are maintained, befitting His disciples. But we know these would be impossible to embrace, were it not for the power of the Holy Spirit working in us and attempting to keep us on the straight and narrow way.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Bob,

You have made my point for me. You don't really believe what Paul wrote about mortification - that the believer does 'do' whatever is necessary to inhibit the life of the flesh until it is dead. The believer is enabled to do this with the help of the Spirit. And Paul even lists the human interests which are never to be allowed to persist, so that their demise does not depend on our feelings or inclinations. They are to be mortified. Period.

If the Spirit's arrival initiated and completed the mortification of the flesh without our co-operation, then we would all be instantly reforemed in our flesh life. But instead, there is a constant testing going on, that we may both prove, and be proved, to be overcoming, and in God's will.

The use of the word 'self' is always a bit dodgy, I think, since we are supposed to have been buried with Christ. Mortification is the making good of that burial in our daily lives (walk), as we battle not only the flesh, but the many abstract forms of opposition which seek to divert us. The weight of scripture is definitely on the individual to make sure certain attitudes and activities are maintained, befitting His disciples. But we know these would be impossible to embrace, were it not for the power of the Holy Spirit working in us and attempting to keep us on the straight and narrow way.

Great point and exactly what I am seeing, dragonfly. Self is the wrong word to use here. Our mind, will and emotions are not bad as they are to be engaged and used in our walk with the Spirit. Self is always referred to as the carnal man or selfish flesh. However, man's soul (mind, will, emotions) are to participate in the will of God and that, willingly. Saying yes to God's will and no to the self-life (flesh).

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Man must understand with his mind (understanding given by the Spirit of God) that he is to be completely engaged in willing all of his faculties (mind, will and emotions) and body (members) to come into agreement with the Lord and His ways and His will for them.

The Christian life is not a passive life and Jesus Christ will not take us over. He is looking for cooperation. For us to love His will more than ours (self).

God is not looking to control someone by force or manipulation. God is love.

 

[Netchaplain]

the believer does 'do' whatever is necessary to inhibit the life of the flesh until it is dead.

The believer is enabled to do this with the help of the Spirit.

If the Spirit's arrival initiated and completed the mortification of the flesh without our co-operation, then we would all be instantly reforemed in our flesh life.

the power of the Holy Spirit working in us and attempting to keep us on the straight and narrow way.[/i]

I find your reply informed and sincere and thank you for it, but what I've presented to you and some of your quotes I've posted above reflects the differences I listed-- Is it self doing the work using the Spirit or is it the Spirit doing the work using self?"

I realize the difficulty of understanding the concept I've shared, due to it not being the normative concerning the Spirit's work in the believer's life, but I have for some time now understood that the struggle of attempting to live like Christ is not what I believe Scripture is teaching, but rather it is Christ Himself--through His Spirit, living His life in and through the believer.

It would be about the same concept that we are to overcome sin, which has already been accomplished by Christ, for the Christian; which leaves us with the ongoing task of yielding to God (Rom 6:13) through faith in the efficacious work of Christ, instead of accepting that the same work is accountable to the believer. Concerning the yielding, it is the new self and not the old which we're to yield, or present to God.

I do appreciate your sharing out of brotherly-love and the same is from me to you, but I do not think it will be anytime soon that what I'm referring to will be an acceptable teaching among many, even though this has been common knowledge within dispensational teachings for the last three centuries.

Judging from our correspondence with this issue, I'm convinced neither of us will be missing the Lord's will concerning our fellowship with Him.

Self is the wrong word to use here. Our mind, will and emotions are not bad as they are to be engaged and used in our walk with the Spirit. Self is always referred to as the carnal man or selfish flesh. However, man's soul (mind, will, emotions) are to participate in the will of God and that, willingly. Saying yes to God's will and no to the self-life (flesh).

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Man must understand with his mind (understanding given by the Spirit of God) that he is to be completely engaged in willing all of his faculties (mind, will and emotions) and body (members) to come into agreement with the Lord and His ways and His will for them.

The Christian life is not a passive life and Jesus Christ will not take us over. He is looking for cooperation. For us to love His will more than ours (self).

God is not looking to control someone by force or manipulation. God is love.

Hi Ax - I've realized that Scripture teaches that self refers to the old nature, which you may know is not to be improved upon, "for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be (Rom 8:7); neither does the new self require improvement, "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph 4:24) and this is the reason why our part is allowing the Spirit to have His way, not with us in our old man, who is sill being "crucified" (Rom 6:6), but us in our new man which is "to be strengthened with might by His Spirit" (Eph 3:16), because it is in the new man we are, "renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him" (Col 3:10).

 

[Axehead]

I find your reply informed and sincere and thank you for it, but what I've presented to you and some of your quotes I've posted above reflects the differences I listed-- Is it self doing the work using the Spirit or is it the Spirit doing the work using self?"

I realize the difficulty of understanding the concept I've shared, due to it not being the normative concerning the Spirit's work in the believer's life, but I have for some time now understood that the struggle of attempting to live like Christ is not what I believe Scripture is teaching, but rather it is Christ Himself--through His Spirit, living His life in and through the believer.

It would be about the same concept that we are to overcome sin, which has already been accomplished by Christ, for the Christian; which leaves us with the ongoing task of yielding to God (Rom 6:13) through faith in the efficacious work of Christ, instead of accepting that the same work is accountable to the believer. Concerning the yielding, it is the new self and not the old which we're to yield, or present to God.

I do appreciate your sharing out of brotherly-love and the same is from me to you, but I do not think it will be anytime soon that what I'm referring to will be an acceptable teaching among many, even though this has been common knowledge within dispensational teachings for the last three centuries.

Judging from our correspondence with this issue, I'm convinced neither of us will be missing the Lord's will concerning our fellowship with Him.
Hi Ax - I've realized that Scripture teaches that self refers to the old nature, which you may know is not to be improved upon, "for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be (Rom 8:7); neither does the new self require improvement, "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph 4:24) and this is the reason why our part is allowing the Spirit to have His way, not with us in our old man, who is sill being "crucified" (Rom 6:6), but us in our new man which is "to be strengthened with might by His Spirit" (Eph 3:16), because it is in the new man we are, "renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him" (Col 3:10).

We probably are talking about the same thing. I would call the "new self" the "new man" as that is Bible closer to Bible language than "new self". I don't see anything about a "new self". I don't see us having 2 self's. The "old man" has been crucified, and the "new man" as you quoted, "but us in our new man which is "to be strengthened with might by His Spirit" (Eph 3:16), because it is in the new man we are, "renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created him" (Col 3:10)."

It is true that one cannot imitate the Life of Christ or duplicate it or mimic it. It must be Christ living in us. And I know that we are probably trying to bring clarity to the readers more than one another because I do believe you understand that Christ living in us requires us to do something. It does not just happen. We willingly and cheerfully choose to abide in Him, so that He may live in us. You don't have one without the other.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

You quote Romans 6:6 and then change it by saying we are still crucifying the old man. But Roman 6:6 does not say that.

We are now to reckon the old man DEAD! Not still being crucified.

Rom_6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

We have to reckon by faith that we died and were buried.


Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, (the Lord is no longer being crucified) that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. (past tense)

We are to bear our cross meaning deny self because we can still choose to give into the desires of the flesh. When we were born-again, we were not given a new body, or completely renewed mind. Neither was our will and emotions completely sanctified. We cannot do anything without Christ. We cannot be like Him. No one can. We are to become one with Him (unity and agreement with His will) and let Him conform us to His image.

I'm off on a rabbit trail, I admit. And texting is very difficult because we can't see one another or hear each other's voices. I like your quote.

The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, or our trying to be Christ-like, nor is it Christ giving us the power to live a life like His; but it is Christ Himself living His own life through us; 'no longer I, but Christ.'"

Christ is not just looking for a body, like the Enemy is. He does not want to take over our mind, will and emotions. He wants us to work with Him (not against Him). He wants us to allow Him to work in us and through us.

All the best to you,
Axehead

 

[Netchaplain]

We probably are talking about the same thing. I would call the "new self" the "new man" as that is Bible closer to Bible language than "new self". I don't see anything about a "new self". I don't see us having 2 self's. The "old man" has been crucified,

It is true that one cannot imitate the Life of Christ or duplicate it or mimic it. It must be Christ living in us. And I know that we are probably trying to bring clarity to the readers more than one another because I do believe you understand that Christ living in us requires us to do something. It does not just happen. We willingly and cheerfully choose to abide in Him, so that He may live in us. You don't have one without the other.



You quote Romans 6:6 and then change it by saying we are still crucifying the old man. But Roman 6:6 does not say that.

We are now to reckon the old man DEAD! Not still being crucified.

Rom_6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

We have to reckon by faith that we died and were buried.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, (the Lord is no longer being crucified) that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. (past tense)

We are to bear our cross meaning deny self because we can still choose to give into the desires of the flesh. When we were born-again, we were not given a new body, or completely renewed mind. Neither was our will and emotions completely sanctified. We cannot do anything without Christ. We cannot be like Him. No one can. We are to become one with Him (unity and agreement with His will) and let Him conform us to His image.

All the best to you,
Axehead

I like your reply Ax because it is close to what I was intending to indicate. The "new man" and "old man" are just natures, not actual entities, such as a person, and the way Scripture states that our old man IS crucified means to me that it is still on the Cross but is being detained from ruling us (Rom 6:12, 14).

As while one is being crucified, he is still alive, but just has no freedom to be active, even so, our old nature is not dead to us, but rather still tests us and is rather enhanced by the law of the Spirit identifying it for us. Romans 6:11 says we are "dead to sin," but sin is not dead to us, just held back on the Cross.

Just because our Adamic nature (old man) is crucified, it doesn't mean it's gone, because it's still on the Cross and yelling out orders, which we no longer always have to obey as before. This is the continued indwelling sin nature Paul refers to in Romans 7.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your reply to me. Axehead has said all that I would have said, but I don't expect him to agree with you that the sin nature is still indwelling in the way that it would be before one came to Christ, receiving circumcison of the heart through the operation of the Holy Spirit. So here is a question for you:

When Jesus cried, 'It is finished!' to what was He referring?

(Remember He had to die for us, and so it could not have been that, because He was still alive when He shouted.)

 

[Rex]

You have explored a lot of verses but I see your into Romans 6 -7 and 8 now.


I like the discription used here IMO the moment God judged your heart and you entered into a new life becoming a new creature. You obeyed from the heart.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

Galatians 3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you[b] as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

Here lies the true fruit, no one can produce fruit unless he is born from above, and the fruit comes from grace not the transformation that one will or can decome completely obediant to the law,

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But
now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you
have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the next chapter 7 we see that Paul discribes our condition the war between our flesh and heart, from with-in the Spirit that now dwells in us does not release us from the sinful nature of our flesh.
John TB said something after pointing to Jesus as being the lamb of God that applies to this verse as well,
John 3:30 “ He must become greater I must become less “. This is the path to maturity that will become fully matured when we are released from our tent of flesh.
The folowing after the Spirit "He must become greater" not the flesh "I must become less"

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

On to Romans 8 we see that our intended goal of perfection, or the redemtion of our sinfull flesh "we wait", we are saved in this hope but Paul never speaks of obtaining perfect harmony with God in the flesh we are born into. If such were posible then Jesus would have never needed to suffer for our imperfect condition If we we're capable of obtaianing it. It perfection were obtainable I believe it would be clearly taught but IMO it's not.

23 Not only that,
but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves
groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption
of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

All in all I don't find perfection or walking a sinless life as some believe, as something obtainable in this flesh we are born into.

Hebrews 2:14
14 Inasmuch
then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself
likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who
had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

In all I completely agree with Bob, Dependence—Not Independence