Did God approve or disapprove of the Jewish temple?

[Wick Stick]

This arose out of the discussion in another topic, where I said that the Bible is a little confusing where it comes to the Jewish temple.

The histories record the temple as being glorious, and in them God indwells it and apparently approves of it. For instance:

And it came to pass, after the priests came out of [Solomon's newly built temple], that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD. (1Kings 8:10)

But some of the prophets, and particularly the martyr Stephen, seem to say that God never wanted a man-made temple at all:

Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. But Solomon built him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things? (Acts 7:44-50)

So, which is it? Did God sanction the building of the temple or not? If so, was it a good thing? Or was this like the time the Israelites wanted a king, so God sanctioned it but turned it into a punishment?

Or did God change His mind? I don't think He does that.

@Lambano

 

[quietthinker]

None of the Prophets had the perfect 'formula'. What they understood was filtered through their culture, ie their knowledge of God and their life experiences which was riddled with dysfunctional views and behaviours....just as ours is even though God spoke to them just as he speaks to us today.

Jesus set the record straight regarding seeing/ understanding the methods of God's reality/ government.
Many times Jesus corrected the Prophets in statements like this, 'you have heard said but I say unto you'. The 'but' nullifies what has come before it. He then said things that were not inline with the utterances of the Prophets. Matthew 5:21-48

The Prophets were a dimmer light. Jesus, as Hebrews 1 puts it, is the brightness of God's glory and the express image of his person. In other words, Jesus is the unmitigated character of God revealed to mankind 1 John 1-5. What Jesus says and how he behaves is a perfect reflection of his Father. The Prophets were not, neither were angels.

Matthew 5 has Jesus making these corrections of the Prophets straight after his delivery of the constitution of heaven....what we know as the Beatitudes (the beautiful attitudes) Matt. 5:1-10

 

[Wick Stick]

None of the Prophets had the perfect 'formula'. What they understood was filtered through their culture, ie their knowledge of God and their life experiences which was riddled with dysfunctional views and behaviours....just as ours is even though God spoke to them just as he speaks to us today.

Jesus set the record straight regarding seeing/ understanding the methods of God's reality/ government.
Many times Jesus corrected the Prophets in statements like this, 'you have heard said but I say unto you'. The 'but' nullifies what has come before it. He then said things that were not inline with the utterances of the Prophets. Matthew 5:21-48

The Prophets were a dimmer light. Jesus, as Hebrews 1 puts it, is the brightness of God's glory and the express image of his person. In other words, Jesus is the unmitigated character of God revealed to mankind 1 John 1-5. What Jesus says and how he behaves is a perfect reflection of his Father. The Prophets were not, neither were angels.

Matthew 5 has Jesus making these corrections of the Prophets straight after his delivery of the constitution of heaven....what we know as the Beatitudes (the beautiful attitudes) Matt. 5:1-10

Wow, we see things very differently. I see the prophets as being inspired by God and inerrant.

I'm not sure the books of history are inspired or inerrant. They certainly don't claim it for themselves.

 

[ScottA]

This arose out of the discussion in another topic, where I said that the Bible is a little confusing where it comes to the Jewish temple.

The histories record the temple as being glorious, and in them God indwells it and apparently approves of it. For instance:

And it came to pass, after the priests came out of [Solomon's newly built temple], that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD. (1Kings 8:10)

But some of the prophets, and particularly the martyr Stephen, seem to say that God never wanted a man-made temple at all:

Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. But Solomon built him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things? (Acts 7:44-50)

So, which is it? Did God sanction the building of the temple or not? If so, was it a good thing? Or was this like the time the Israelites wanted a king, so God sanctioned it but turned it into a punishment?

Or did God change His mind? I don't think He does that.

@Lambano

I answered the poll: "Something else", meaning: Yes the Temple was a good thing--but. But it was only for a time.

Just as the law of God was first written on stone, but would later be written on our hearts, so too was the Temple first of stone, but then within. Thus, it is also written, "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual."

 

[Wick Stick]

I answered the poll: "Something else", meaning: Yes the Temple was a good thing--but. But it was only for a time.

Just as the law of God was first written on stone, but would later be written on our hearts, so too was the Temple first of stone, but then within. Thus, it is also written, "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual."

Interesting. What do you make of Stephen's comments in Acts 7?

 

[ScottA]

Interesting. What do you make of Stephen's comments in Acts 7?

Jesus had announced the arrival of the kingdom of God, ending the era of the natural testament regarding the curse of death following original sin. Stephen's comments were a testament confirming that change...of coming back around to the spiritual (as God is spirit) and these times of spiritual testament beginning at Pentecost where God's promise to pour out His spirit upon all flesh began to be fulfilled at the hand of Jesus--“Behold, I am coming as a thief."

 

[quietthinker]

Wow, we see things very differently. I see the prophets as being inspired by God and inerrant.

I'm not sure the books of history are inspired or inerrant. They certainly don't claim it for themselves.

I think the word 'inerrant' is over rated. It is a word men have superimposed on the scriptures.
The fact that Jesus said, 'you have heard said but I say unto you.....' is an indication that what they had heard said was not inerrant as the word is generally perceived and I would ask, where had they hear it said?.....in the scriptures they were familiar with.

 

[Bob]

Thank you for the intriguing question.

God commanded the Israelites to erect the tabernacle and then the temple in part because they were to be the only place for blood sacrifices. Israelites were to distinguish themselves from their pagan Canaanite neighbors, who selected a multitude of high places for their sacrifices (including child sacrifices).

The two kingdoms brought about their destruction by adopting the pagan worship (including altars in high places), as well as other disobedience.

A Good Thing? When are God’s commands for us otherwise?

The temple’s function ceased with the final sacrifice of the Lamb of God.

Peace.

 

[Wick Stick]

I think the word 'inerrant' is over rated. It is a word men have superimposed on the scriptures.
The fact that Jesus said, 'you have heard said but I say unto you.....' is an indication that what they had heard said was not inerrant as the word is generally perceived and I would ask, where had they hear it said?.....in the scriptures they were familiar with.

I sort of agree - I don't find every letter of Scripture to be without errors. I am slightly taken aback that, where the prophets seemingly disagree with the history, you side with the history. The prophets seem more reliable to me.

 

[ScottA]

I think the word 'inerrant' is over rated. It is a word men have superimposed on the scriptures.
The fact that Jesus said, 'you have heard said but I say unto you.....' is an indication that what they had heard said was not inerrant as the word is generally perceived and I would ask, where had they hear it said?.....in the scriptures they were familiar with.

No. The words God declared to His servants the prophets are the truth from God, and are only finished just before the end. It is the interpretation of those words and the teachings of men that has been in error. When Jesus said, "You have heard said...but I say unto you" it is that error of men that He referred to, and; He did so as clarification going forward into the kingdom of God that He would usher in, and the time of God's pouring out His spirit upon all flesh beginning at Pentecost.

 

[Wick Stick]

Thank you for the intriguing question.

God commanded the Israelites to erect the tabernacle and then the temple in part because they were to be the only place for blood sacrifices. Israelites were to distinguish themselves from their pagan Canaanite neighbors, who selected a multitude of high places for their sacrifices (including child sacrifices).

The two kingdoms brought about their destruction by adopting the pagan worship (including altars in high places), as well as other disobedience.

Interesting. So, God effectively quarantined the practice of blood sacrifices to a small area?

A Good Thing? When are God’s commands for us otherwise?

Well... God gave Moses' Israel several commands that don't seem to have been the best. They asked for kings, and He granted it even though it wasn't good, calling them a punishment. After they made the golden calf, He moved His presence OUT of their camp, and required an intermediary, which was later removed in the new covenant because having that separation wasn't the best. The New Testament says the whole Law was "added because of transgressions" and also replaces the whole Levitical priesthood with "a better priesthood."

The temple’s function ceased with the final sacrifice of the Lamb of God.

I am wondering... what if the true purpose for the Jewish temple WAS to quarantine the practice of animal sacrifice to a small area? God doesn't seem very fond of sacrifices in some verses...

[Amo 5:21-22 KJV] 21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. 22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept [them]: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

 

[Scott Downey]

Thank you for the intriguing question.

God commanded the Israelites to erect the tabernacle and then the temple in part because they were to be the only place for blood sacrifices. Israelites were to distinguish themselves from their pagan Canaanite neighbors, who selected a multitude of high places for their sacrifices (including child sacrifices).

The two kingdoms brought about their destruction by adopting the pagan worship (including altars in high places), as well as other disobedience.

A Good Thing? When are God’s commands for us otherwise?

The temple’s function ceased with the final sacrifice of the Lamb of God.

Peace.

Intriguing question, since none of the commandments could give life, although holy and good.

The commandments are called the ministry of death, and the ministry of condemnation written and engraved on stones

2 Corinthians 3
New King James Version
Christ’s Epistle

1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

The Spirit, Not the Letter
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the [a]Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Glory of the New Covenant
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[Scott Downey]

The Law was our tutor to lead us to Christ.
So it was temporary, the Old covenant has yielded to the New Covenant, and the OC rendered obsolete.

There will be no going back to the law and the prophets, Christ is their fulfillment.
There will never again be any approved animal sacrifices or a physical temple.
There may well be fake ones though, that people call the temple of God.


Hebrews 8
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Galatians 3

Purpose of the Law​

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [f]kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our [g]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Sons and Heirs​

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And the Law which is holy and good will not pass away until we get our new creation, new heaven, new earth. Why cause it deals with sinners.

Christ Fulfills the Law​

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one [b]jot or one [c]tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[David in NJ]

This arose out of the discussion in another topic, where I said that the Bible is a little confusing where it comes to the Jewish temple.

The histories record the temple as being glorious, and in them God indwells it and apparently approves of it. For instance:

And it came to pass, after the priests came out of [Solomon's newly built temple], that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD. (1Kings 8:10)

But some of the prophets, and particularly the martyr Stephen, seem to say that God never wanted a man-made temple at all:

Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. But Solomon built him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things? (Acts 7:44-50)

So, which is it? Did God sanction the building of the temple or not? If so, was it a good thing? Or was this like the time the Israelites wanted a king, so God sanctioned it but turned it into a punishment?

Or did God change His mind? I don't think He does that.

@Lambano

OT Temple was Good thing that speaks of CHRIST

Same as Moses with the law and the tabernacle

All OT Truths speak of CHRIST = especially the 7th day of rest

 

[Bob]

Interesting. So, God effectively quarantined the practice of blood sacrifices to a small area?

Well... God gave Moses' Israel several commands that don't seem to have been the best. They asked for kings, and He granted it even though it wasn't good, calling them a punishment. After they made the golden calf, He moved His presence OUT of their camp, and required an intermediary, which was later removed in the new covenant because having that separation wasn't the best. The New Testament says the whole Law was "added because of transgressions" and also replaces the whole Levitical priesthood with "a better priesthood."

I am wondering... what if the true purpose for the Jewish temple WAS to quarantine the practice of animal sacrifice to a small area? God doesn't seem very fond of sacrifices in some verses...

[Amo 5:21-22 KJV] 21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. 22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept [them]: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

Thanks for the follow-up questions.

God, in His wisdom, says that if we will be obedient, we can have abundant life. If we say, “I want to do this instead,” He says OK (but there will be consequences). The parable of the prodigal son begins thusly.

Regarding the Amos passage, here is Micah 6:

6 With what shall I come before the Lord
and bow down before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?
7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousand rivers of olive oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.

So, there are those today that diligently attend church services and support the church generously, but outside the church, they do not come close to loving their neighbor. How will God consider them? In other words, the prophets and the Apostle Paul said you will cannot obtain salvation solely through good works. For the truly faithful, good works are a natural outpouring.

Blessings.

 

[Wick Stick]

OT Temple was Good thing that speaks of CHRIST

Same as Moses with the law and the tabernacle

All OT Truths speak of CHRIST = especially the 7th day of rest

I agree there are symbols there, but... didn't the tabernacle already contain all the same symbols?

And what do you do with the verses that say God did not want the temple and the sacrifices?

 

[David in NJ]

didn't the tabernacle already contain all the same symbols?

idk about "all" but definitely sufficient enough for our understanding and faith

And what do you do with the verses that say God did not want the temple and the sacrifices?

LOVE LOVE LOVE this question = Thank You

This Says to us that God had a plan for Adam to walk with with God for 1,000 Years and afterward Adam would be transformed.

SIN canceled that 1,000 Year Walk with God and therefore Some One had to complete it on our behalf = CHRIST

In order for CHRIST to complete it for us, God had to first establish a means of Picture Perfect Communication for our understanding.
Thus the Lord immediately clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins(sheep skins).
Then God built upon this with Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
Then Moses and the law.
Then the OT Prophets
Then the 1st Coming of MESSIAH/Suffering Servant
FINALLY the 2nd Promise of the FATHER = Jeremiah 31:31, John 14:15-18, Acts/Pentecost
FINALITY = His Second Coming
RENEWAL = FULFILLMENT of Genesis = 1,000 Year Reign of CHRIST with the 'sons of God'

SHALOM

 

[Scott Downey]

idk about "all" but definitely sufficient enough for our understanding and faith


LOVE LOVE LOVE this question = Thank You

This Says to us that God had a plan for Adam to walk with with God for 1,000 Years and afterward Adam would be transformed.

SIN canceled that 1,000 Year Walk with God and therefore Some One had to complete it on our behalf = CHRIST

In order for CHRIST to complete it for us, God had to first establish a means of Picture Perfect Communication for our understanding.
Thus the Lord immediately clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins(sheep skins).
Then God built upon this with Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
Then Moses and the law.
Then the OT Prophets
Then the 1st Coming of MESSIAH/Suffering Servant
FINALLY the 2nd Promise of the FATHER = Jeremiah 31:31, John 14:15-18, Acts/Penetcost
FINALITY = His Second Coming
RENEWAL = FULFILLMENT of Genesis = 1,000 Year Reign of CHRIST with the 'sons of God'

SHALOM

I love how God provided a way back to Himself for Adam and Eve.

 

[David in NJ]

I love how God provided a way back to Himself for Adam and Eve.

By God restoring what satan disrupted, God demonstrates His Great Love, Grace and Mercy which satan and the fallen angels,
who are superior to man, cannot attain unto.

thus we have the scripture "which angels desire to look into"

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what,
or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you(man) by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

 

[Scott Downey]

By God restoring what satan disrupted, God demonstrates His Great Love, Grace and Mercy which satan and the fallen angels,
who are superior to man, cannot attain unto.

thus we have the scripture "which angels desire to look into"

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what,
or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you(man) by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

You can know God provided forgiveness when God sacrificed 2 animals for Adam and Eve, and He spoke a promise to them about the Messiah to come

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

This however did not alleviate the curse of the ground, that was relieved with Noah.

Genesis 5:29
And he called his name Noah, saying, “This one will comfort us concerning our work and the toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord has cursed.”