Did God Warn Us About The Pre-Trib Rapture Doctrine?

[veteran]

Many of you will have never read this part of God's Word before I cover below. None of The LORD's servants taught the Pre-trib secret Rapture idea, which idea suggests that Christ will come in 'secret' PRIOR to the "great tribulation" to gather His Church to Heaven so they can escape that tribulation. Even those on that false doctrine of man are so mixed up about its original ideas back in 1830's Britain that you could put many of them together in a room and they'd argue among theirselves as to what all ideas it contains.

Yet our Heavenly Father covered it, but as a warning. He is against it. And I'm going to show exactly where... in His Word He teaches against it.


It's first important to understand a bit of Bible history at this point of prophecy God gave to Ezekiel. In Ezek.3 God said He made Ezekiel a prophet to "the house of Israel". Well who was that at this point in Bible history? By this time God had already split the Israel under Solomon into two separate kingdoms which He also called houses in His Word. The nothern kingdom of ten tribes is who this "house of Israel" is here. It is not those known as the Jews. The Jews made up the 'kingdom of Judah' in the southern holy lands, also called "the house of Judah" in God's Word.

So this prophecy is specifically to the "house of Israel" only, i.e., the ten lost tribes of Israel which God scattered among the Gentiles. It directly applies to Christ's Church today, for that is who the majority of the ten lost tribes of Israel later would become.

Ezek 13:1-23
1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, 'Hear ye the word of the LORD';
3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

These prophets of Israel (house of Israel - ten tribes) are NOT... "gone up into the gaps, neither made up the headge for the house of Israel in order for them to do what? to STAND in the battle in what day? the day of The LORD.

Just what... battle do you think that is brethren? some battle back in Ezekiel's days? No, for our Heavenly Father attached that "day of the LORD" phrase to define which day. Recall per 1 Thess.5 and 2 Peter 3:10, and Zech.14 that the "day of the LORD" is when our Lord Jesus returns to gather His Church. This battle here is the "evil day" Apostle Paul spoke of in Ephesians 6, telling us to put on the whole armour God so that we would be able to STAND in that "evil day". If you haven't figured it out yet, this "battle" God mentions here is about the coming "great tribulation" time.

God is angry with the pastors that are not preparing His sheep for that evil day. That is the topic here. God calls those not doing that like "foxes in the deserts", and "foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!"


6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, 'The LORD saith': and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

Those claim God spoke to them and He did not send them. Recall that the idea of being 'sent' by God has a special meaning in His Word. It's where the idea of the office of Apostle comes from. Those prophets say 'God said...' and He did not send them, which you'll find out how that is later here. Those hoped that others would confirm what they say, to make it believable.

7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, 'The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?'
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.

Make no mistake, God is telling us these prophets over the house of Israel are claiming God said when they are speaking lies. What lie? what vanity? what lying divination do they speak to make our Heavenly Father be against them? Keep going to find out.

9 And Mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of My people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

These prophets divining lies among the ten tribes will not be gathered by Christ, that's the gist of it.


10 Because, even because they have seduced My people, saying, 'Peace'; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

God reveals these prophets over the ten tribes for the end will be prophesying 'peace' when there really is no peace. What time is that about in relation to the "day of the LORD" timing above? It's just prior to Christ's coming, which is what timing? the tribulation timing! So there's going to be a false 'peace' for the future tribulation coming in our near future? YES! That's what Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Thess.5 with the deceived saying, "Peace and safety". We are also forewarned in the Book of Daniel about the vile person (Antichrist) that's to come and destroy many using 'peace', and that craft will prosper in his hand (Dan.8:25). Who hasn't heard about today's false 'one-world peace' ideas the globalists are trying to create with their new world order system over all nations?

God says here one built up a wall with that fake world peace idea, and others daubed it with untempered mortar. Ever try to lay bricks with concrete mortar that never hardens? That's God's meaning here, comparing their one-world peace to laying a wall of bricks with slush instead of mortar that hardens.

11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

Have we heard about great hailstones weighing a talent upon the wicked on the last day of this present world? Yes, our Lord Jesus revealed that in His Revelation. That's what this stormy wind is about too, the time of the end with Christ's coming when the 4 winds of Rev.7 will "blow" upon the earth, ending this present world time. God compares their false one-world peace falling down to the ground like a great storm will cause a wall built with untempered mortar to fall down.


12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, "Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?"

When that wall falls down, won't it be said to them which daubed it, "Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?" where is your mortar (false one world peace) you built that weak wall with?


13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in My fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in Mine anger, and great hailstones in My fury to consume it.

There's those great hailstones for the end again. God is going to burn that false wall up, consume it.

14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, "The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;
16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace", saith the Lord GOD.


Peace for Jerusalem? Just who... has been trying to establish peace in Jerusalem today? Ever heard of the Oslo Accords of 1993, one of the latest supposed peace agreed concerning Jerusalem to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? What about the Camp David accords of 1978? Even today these one-world diplomats are still negotiating a peace for Jerusalem. According the prophecy given Daniel, a peace pact will be made for the very end prior to Christ's return, and will start the tribulation time with the appearance of the final Antichrist in Jerusalem.

17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?


This is where God gets down to the nitty-gritty of what these prophets over His people do with prophesying out of their own hearts. These prophets are put for 'women' here in the sense of their weakness as compared to men that make a stand (no offense towards woman intended). It's simply like God is calling these prophets little girls instead of men.

Their sewing pillows to all armholes is not a good translation from the Hebrew. The actual idea is how they sew coverings over His people's arms to hide God from them, just so they can hunt the souls of His people. Just what do those prophets hunt the souls of God's people for? Keep going.


19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?


These false prophets that say God said, and He didn't send them, speak lies that God did not say. And they do it for MONEY. That's what that pieces of bread and handfuls of barley represents. In Joun 10 our Lord Jesus warned us about the 'hireling', those who preach for gain and will run when the wolves creep in, instead of making a stand for His sheep. By their false teachings, they attack the souls that should not die, and instead try to save the souls of the wicked that should die.


20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

This Hebrew word for "to make them fly" can mean to blossum, to bud, and specifically... to FLY (Strong's 6524).

So what specific doctrine for the last days have we been hearing that involves trying to make the souls of God's people 'fly'? It is the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men. God says He is going to let those souls go, tear them from the arms of those false prophets who divine lies.


21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
(KJV)

WHEN will this delivering out of the hands of those false prophets happen? It will occur at Christ's second coming when He comes to gather His Church to go to Jerusalem. Which souls is this about? The souls that these false prophets deceived.

Thus the preaching of the false Pre-trib secret Rapture doctrine has a penalty with it, which we read about in the previous Ezek.13:9 verse, they won't be gathered and will not enter into the holy lands when Jesus returns to gather His Church after the tribulation.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

None of The LORD's servants taught the Pre-trib secret Rapture idea, which idea suggests that Christ will come in 'secret'

So what do you think "thief in the night" means ?

It directly applies to Christ's Church today, for that is who the majority of the ten lost tribes of Israel later would become.

So you are saying that you are Israel veteran ?

God is angry with the pastors that are not preparing His sheep for that evil day

You need to get out more veteran.
Pastors have prepared us for everything.
having Jesus Christ is everything.
Christianity will not fail because of some evil you feel is lurking somewhere.

Those claim God spoke to them and He did not send them.

Are you trying to claim god sent you ?

Peace for Jerusalem? Just who... has been trying to establish peace in Jerusalem today?

it will happen some day .... Peace in Jerusalem .... and guess what .... God will live there.

Their sewing pillows to all armholes is not a good translation from the Hebrew. The actual idea is how they sew coverings over His people's arms to hide God from them, just so they can hunt the souls of His people. Just what do those prophets hunt the souls of God's people for? Keep going.

Now you are quoting Christine ... the vehement anti-rapture member from years gone by.

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

This Hebrew word for "to make them fly" can mean to blossum, to bud, and specifically... to FLY (Strong's 6524).

So what specific doctrine for the last days have we been hearing that involves trying to make the souls of God's people 'fly'? It is the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men. God says He is going to let those souls go, tear them from the arms of those false prophets who divine lies.

Bullsit veteran .... no pre-tribbers figure they will fly anywhere

Jesus said he will come in the clouds and gather his elect up to him

You and your Ezekiel pillows need to lie down and take a nap.

And you know friggin well Ezeziel 13 is not talking about the rapture so get over it sir.

WHEN will this delivering out of the hands of those false prophets happen?

Focus on the word now in Ezekiel 13:2NIV

Focus on the word "are prophesying" Ezekiel 13:2YLT (Current tense) (at the time of Ezekiel)

And if you think you are Israel veteran .... pay special attention to the word land of Israel in Ezekiel 13:9

Quit twisting scriptures veteran

And quit blaming all your problems on some broad from the 1800's

You are a man with some strange ideas and doctrines.

sheesh !!!!!

 

[veteran]

So what do you think "thief in the night" means ?

Simple to know what it means, IF one listens to God in His Word and through His servants like Apostles Paul and Peter. The reason why you probably don't... know what it means is because those prophets who divine lies have taught you to totally separate that "thief in the night" phrase from the various Scriptures where it is given in association with specific end time events. So the better question you should... be asking is, just what events did our Lord Jesus and His Apostles associate that with, and how does it apply to His Church?

ANS: The "day of the Lord" will come as a thief upon... whom? God's people? No. (1 Thess.5; Rev.16:15)

So you are saying that you are Israel veteran ?

I could be, we'll have to wait to find that out won't we? You might be too and not even know it, especially if you have heritage from the old nations of Asia Minor and Europe where the majority of the ten tribes were scattered to. If so, then what God said there through Ezekiel about these end time events ought to have more meaning for you.

You need to get out more veteran.
Pastors have prepared us for everything.
having Jesus Christ is everything.
Christianity will not fail because of some evil you feel is lurking somewhere.

Regarding this matter of wanting to 'fly away', the pastors you listen to and heed have NOT prepared you to make a stand in the evil day at all, but instead to think to escape it. Because they have promised you safety with their false lies, you have chosen them over The Word of God. So if you like their untempered mortar that's going to fall when God blows against it, then go to.

As for your latter above statements, you're vain attempt to get off the topic won't work either, for that's exactly what those false prophets do who divine lies.

Are you trying to claim god sent you ?

No, I am not claiming to be one of His sent Apostles like others here like to try to do that are on that same false Pre-trib secreat Rapture doctrine of diviners that you are on. But I would be telling a lie if I said I had absolutely no calling from The LORD.

it will happen some day .... Peace in Jerusalem .... and guess what .... God will live there.

NO PEACE for Jerualem for THIS PRESENT WORLD TIME, only a FALSE PEACE that TRIES to pass itself off as true peace. Weren't you paying attention to our LORD about that? The ONLY future time of true peace for Jerusalem will be when Christ returns to Jerusalem in our near future AFTER... the tribulation like He said in Matthew 24:29-31.

Now you are quoting Christine ... the vehement anti-rapture member from years gone by.

Are you quoting the devil with your lying associations directed against me? You should be more worried about not being more aligned with what God's Word teaches instead of what the false prophets that divine lies teach. But it's your choice to listen whomever you want. It's clear to me who you're listening to with this line of questioning.

Bullsit veteran .... no pre-tribbers figure they will fly anywhere

Jesus said he will come in the clouds and gather his elect up to him

Profanity is not allowed on this forum. Need we remind the administrators about that?

If you don't know how the history of the Pre-Trib 'fly away' Rapture doctrine has taught that very idea, maybe you ought to listen to some of their Gospel tunes of old, named I'll Fly Away. Pretty good Gospel tune, but its premise is false, being based on the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine of divining false prophets. That's how they interpret Apostle Paul's "caught up" phrase of 1 Thess.4.

Like I said brethren, even many on the false Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine don't understand many of the very tenets of that false doctrine, so put many of them together and they'd even argue among theirselves.

You and your Ezekiel pillows need to lie down and take a nap.

And you know friggin well Ezeziel 13 is not talking about the rapture so get over it sir.

Those false prophets must love you right now, since now you even mock God's Holy Writ of what He said about those who sew pillows over the arms of His to hide Him. That's what they've done to the deceived like yourself with their promise that you'll escape the tribulation, so why shouldn't you put your trust in what THEY say... instead of what God says in His Word? Will they be there to protect you when God let's loose the four winds to blow their false wall with untempered mortar down?

And you know friggin well Ezeziel 13 is not talking about the rapture so get over it sir.

The false Pre-Trib secret fly away Rapture doctrine is EXACTLY one of the main issues God is talking about in that Ezekiel 13 chapter! It is one of the few places in His Word where He DIRECTLY warns against that false doctrine and the divining prophets over His people that push that lie. But since those who choose to believe that doctrine trap don't listen to Him anyway, of course those like youself would try to say He was speaking of something else, even maybe something that happenned back in Ezekiel's days. If that makes you feel better, then go to. You let those divining prophets lie to you, so you wouldn't have a problem lying to yourself either.

Focus on the word now in Ezekiel 13:2NIV

Focus on the word "are prophesying" Ezekiel 13:2YLT (Current tense) (at the time of Ezekiel)

And if you think you are Israel veteran .... pay special attention to the word land of Israel in Ezekiel 13:9

Quit twisting scriptures veteran

And quit blaming all your problems on some broad from the 1800's

You are a man with some strange ideas and doctrines.

sheesh !!!!!

You're just not... going to be able to change God's direct warning there through His prophet Ezekiel, no matter how you try.

What did God say there again?


Ezek.13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Veteran ... I would agree with you that the word "bullsit" is not appropriate ....
Whereas you seem to have no problem calling all the pre-tribbers "Liars"
The two words mean the same thing and I feel "bull" is less harsh than "liar".

Back to topic .... why do you ignore the precise word land of Israel verse in Ezekiel 13:9 ?
Is it because it destroys your false theory about Israel ?

I hope you live a long life Veteran .... but when you die .... will your spirit and soul cease to exist ...? ... or will It go to be with The Lord until the resurrection ?


The bible gives us plenty of hints about our souls continuing after death ..... and that is what the "I'll Fly Away" song is about

Best wishes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNXq5p5Voxw

 

[clark thompson]

I think if pretribulation rapture is untrue many will be decieved because of them accepting a theory as fact. Fact is Christ will call His church and set up His kingdom on earth.

 

[veteran]

Veteran ... I would agree with you that the word "bullsit" is not appropriate ....
Whereas you seem to have no problem calling all the pre-tribbers "Liars"
The two words mean the same thing and I feel "bull" is less harsh than "liar".

Back to topic .... why do you ignore the precise word land of Israel verse in Ezekiel 13:9 ?
Is it because it destroys your false theory about Israel ?

I hope you live a long life Veteran .... but when you die .... will your spirit and soul cease to exist ...? ... or will It go to be with The Lord until the resurrection ?


The bible gives us plenty of hints about our souls continuing after death ..... and that is what the "I'll Fly Away" song is about

Best wishes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNXq5p5Voxw

I don't have to call the Pre-trib secret Rapture prophets liars, our Heavenly Father ALREADY did, right there in Ezekiel 13 for one example.

I think if pretribulation rapture is untrue many will be decieved because of them accepting a theory as fact. Fact is Christ will call His church and set up His kingdom on earth.

That is true, as our Lord Jesus expects us... to make a stand during the coming tribulation staying in Him, giving His Testimony, being faithful to Him even to the death if needs be.

Rev 2:10
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
(KJV)


How would someone preaching that like He said be greeted in one of today's Pre-trib secret fly away rapture churches???

Those in Christ Jesus are not to fear the enemy, for we already have the Victory through Him. Why isn't that Message instead being preached today by those kind of churches instead of, "don't worry, you're gonna' be gone before the tribulation starts"?

 

[michaelvpardo]

I don't know what's set you so vehemently in opposition, but I believe that both of you, Arnie and Veteran, are sincere followers of our Lord. I don't understand everything Veteran is talking about, but that doesn't make it wrong, but even if he should be mistaken in anything, he's entitled to his understanding. Arnie, I trust that you're seeking Christ, but I certainly agree with Veteran that the pre-trib rapture is a lie straight out of hell. We could both be mistaken in that, but our stance is upon the word of God, not on some doctrine built with bits and pieces of scriptures taken out of their context. Name calling and vitriol doesn't serve Christ's purposes, so I call the both of you to peace. Our understanding changes according to the plan of our teacher who is unwilling to teach us more than we can bear, but the Word of God abides forever. No one who trusts in the Lord will be ashamed in the end, so do you both have your trust in Him? That should be enough. We should be here on these forums to edify each other, to teach, to learn, to grow in the knowledge of the Lord. We're all seeking the mind of Christ and attaining toward that goal should bring us all closer together, not push us further apart. The first rule in our hearts should be grace and love toward each other. Its only our pride that makes our fleshly natures rise up in division, so I ask you to submit to His Spirit and humble yourselves in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and give no place for the adversary. I'm certainly endeavoring to do that and by His grace, I believe that we can maintain the bond of peace and serve the Lord together in the manner He approves and intends for His body. Amen.

 

[Alanforchrist]

Many of you will have never read this part of God's Word before I cover below. None of The LORD's servants taught the Pre-trib secret Rapture idea, which idea suggests that Christ will come in 'secret' PRIOR to the "great tribulation" to gather His Church to Heaven so they can escape that tribulation. Even those on that false doctrine of man are so mixed up about its original ideas back in 1830's Britain that you could put many of them together in a room and they'd argue among theirselves as to what all ideas it contains.

Yet our Heavenly Father covered it, but as a warning. He is against it. And I'm going to show exactly where... in His Word He teaches against it.


It's first important to understand a bit of Bible history at this point of prophecy God gave to Ezekiel. In Ezek.3 God said He made Ezekiel a prophet to "the house of Israel". Well who was that at this point in Bible history? By this time God had already split the Israel under Solomon into two separate kingdoms which He also called houses in His Word. The nothern kingdom of ten tribes is who this "house of Israel" is here. It is not those known as the Jews. The Jews made up the 'kingdom of Judah' in the southern holy lands, also called "the house of Judah" in God's Word.

So this prophecy is specifically to the "house of Israel" only, i.e., the ten lost tribes of Israel which God scattered among the Gentiles. It directly applies to Christ's Church today, for that is who the majority of the ten lost tribes of Israel later would become.

Ezek 13:1-23
1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, 'Hear ye the word of the LORD';
3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

These prophets of Israel (house of Israel - ten tribes) are NOT... "gone up into the gaps, neither made up the headge for the house of Israel in order for them to do what? to STAND in the battle in what day? the day of The LORD.

Just what... battle do you think that is brethren? some battle back in Ezekiel's days? No, for our Heavenly Father attached that "day of the LORD" phrase to define which day. Recall per 1 Thess.5 and 2 Peter 3:10, and Zech.14 that the "day of the LORD" is when our Lord Jesus returns to gather His Church. This battle here is the "evil day" Apostle Paul spoke of in Ephesians 6, telling us to put on the whole armour God so that we would be able to STAND in that "evil day". If you haven't figured it out yet, this "battle" God mentions here is about the coming "great tribulation" time.

God is angry with the pastors that are not preparing His sheep for that evil day. That is the topic here. God calls those not doing that like "foxes in the deserts", and "foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!"


6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, 'The LORD saith': and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

Those claim God spoke to them and He did not send them. Recall that the idea of being 'sent' by God has a special meaning in His Word. It's where the idea of the office of Apostle comes from. Those prophets say 'God said...' and He did not send them, which you'll find out how that is later here. Those hoped that others would confirm what they say, to make it believable.

7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, 'The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?'
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.

Make no mistake, God is telling us these prophets over the house of Israel are claiming God said when they are speaking lies. What lie? what vanity? what lying divination do they speak to make our Heavenly Father be against them? Keep going to find out.

9 And Mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of My people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

These prophets divining lies among the ten tribes will not be gathered by Christ, that's the gist of it.


10 Because, even because they have seduced My people, saying, 'Peace'; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

God reveals these prophets over the ten tribes for the end will be prophesying 'peace' when there really is no peace. What time is that about in relation to the "day of the LORD" timing above? It's just prior to Christ's coming, which is what timing? the tribulation timing! So there's going to be a false 'peace' for the future tribulation coming in our near future? YES! That's what Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Thess.5 with the deceived saying, "Peace and safety". We are also forewarned in the Book of Daniel about the vile person (Antichrist) that's to come and destroy many using 'peace', and that craft will prosper in his hand (Dan.8:25). Who hasn't heard about today's false 'one-world peace' ideas the globalists are trying to create with their new world order system over all nations?

God says here one built up a wall with that fake world peace idea, and others daubed it with untempered mortar. Ever try to lay bricks with concrete mortar that never hardens? That's God's meaning here, comparing their one-world peace to laying a wall of bricks with slush instead of mortar that hardens.

11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

Have we heard about great hailstones weighing a talent upon the wicked on the last day of this present world? Yes, our Lord Jesus revealed that in His Revelation. That's what this stormy wind is about too, the time of the end with Christ's coming when the 4 winds of Rev.7 will "blow" upon the earth, ending this present world time. God compares their false one-world peace falling down to the ground like a great storm will cause a wall built with untempered mortar to fall down.


12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, "Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?"

When that wall falls down, won't it be said to them which daubed it, "Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?" where is your mortar (false one world peace) you built that weak wall with?


13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in My fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in Mine anger, and great hailstones in My fury to consume it.

There's those great hailstones for the end again. God is going to burn that false wall up, consume it.

14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, "The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;
16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace", saith the Lord GOD.


Peace for Jerusalem? Just who... has been trying to establish peace in Jerusalem today? Ever heard of the Oslo Accords of 1993, one of the latest supposed peace agreed concerning Jerusalem to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? What about the Camp David accords of 1978? Even today these one-world diplomats are still negotiating a peace for Jerusalem. According the prophecy given Daniel, a peace pact will be made for the very end prior to Christ's return, and will start the tribulation time with the appearance of the final Antichrist in Jerusalem.

17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?


This is where God gets down to the nitty-gritty of what these prophets over His people do with prophesying out of their own hearts. These prophets are put for 'women' here in the sense of their weakness as compared to men that make a stand (no offense towards woman intended). It's simply like God is calling these prophets little girls instead of men.

Their sewing pillows to all armholes is not a good translation from the Hebrew. The actual idea is how they sew coverings over His people's arms to hide God from them, just so they can hunt the souls of His people. Just what do those prophets hunt the souls of God's people for? Keep going.


19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?


These false prophets that say God said, and He didn't send them, speak lies that God did not say. And they do it for MONEY. That's what that pieces of bread and handfuls of barley represents. In Joun 10 our Lord Jesus warned us about the 'hireling', those who preach for gain and will run when the wolves creep in, instead of making a stand for His sheep. By their false teachings, they attack the souls that should not die, and instead try to save the souls of the wicked that should die.


20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

This Hebrew word for "to make them fly" can mean to blossum, to bud, and specifically... to FLY (Strong's 6524).

So what specific doctrine for the last days have we been hearing that involves trying to make the souls of God's people 'fly'? It is the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men. God says He is going to let those souls go, tear them from the arms of those false prophets who divine lies.


21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
(KJV)

WHEN will this delivering out of the hands of those false prophets happen? It will occur at Christ's second coming when He comes to gather His Church to go to Jerusalem. Which souls is this about? The souls that these false prophets deceived.

Thus the preaching of the false Pre-trib secret Rapture doctrine has a penalty with it, which we read about in the previous Ezek.13:9 verse, they won't be gathered and will not enter into the holy lands when Jesus returns to gather His Church after the tribulation.

There are to many Pre-trib rapture scriptures for it not to be true.
Only Biblical ignorant people, And those who mis-quote scriptures, Don't accept the Biblical teachings of the pre-trib rapture.

Those who believe the Church goes through the great tribulation, Either don't know the Bible, Or they are calling God a decieving liar.

I think if pretribulation rapture is untrue many will be decieved because of them accepting a theory as fact. Fact is Christ will call His church and set up His kingdom on earth.

What you are saying is, You don't believe the Bible is true.
Of cause you can believe what you want to, But I will believe the Bible. And it teaches the pre-trib rapture.

 

[[email protected]]

Many of you will have never read this part of God's Word before I cover below. None of The LORD's servants taught the Pre-trib secret Rapture idea, which idea suggests that Christ will come in 'secret' PRIOR to the "great tribulation" to gather His Church to Heaven so they can escape that tribulation. Even those on that false doctrine of man are so mixed up about its original ideas back in 1830's Britain that you could put many of them together in a room and they'd argue among theirselves as to what all ideas it contains.

Yet our Heavenly Father covered it, but as a warning. He is against it. And I'm going to show exactly where... in His Word He teaches against it.


It's first important to understand a bit of Bible history at this point of prophecy God gave to Ezekiel. In Ezek.3 God said He made Ezekiel a prophet to "the house of Israel". Well who was that at this point in Bible history? By this time God had already split the Israel under Solomon into two separate kingdoms which He also called houses in His Word. The nothern kingdom of ten tribes is who this "house of Israel" is here. It is not those known as the Jews. The Jews made up the 'kingdom of Judah' in the southern holy lands, also called "the house of Judah" in God's Word.

So this prophecy is specifically to the "house of Israel" only, i.e., the ten lost tribes of Israel which God scattered among the Gentiles. It directly applies to Christ's Church today, for that is who the majority of the ten lost tribes of Israel later would become.

Ezek 13:1-23
1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, 'Hear ye the word of the LORD';
3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

These prophets of Israel (house of Israel - ten tribes) are NOT... "gone up into the gaps, neither made up the headge for the house of Israel in order for them to do what? to STAND in the battle in what day? the day of The LORD.

Just what... battle do you think that is brethren? some battle back in Ezekiel's days? No, for our Heavenly Father attached that "day of the LORD" phrase to define which day. Recall per 1 Thess.5 and 2 Peter 3:10, and Zech.14 that the "day of the LORD" is when our Lord Jesus returns to gather His Church. This battle here is the "evil day" Apostle Paul spoke of in Ephesians 6, telling us to put on the whole armour God so that we would be able to STAND in that "evil day". If you haven't figured it out yet, this "battle" God mentions here is about the coming "great tribulation" time.

God is angry with the pastors that are not preparing His sheep for that evil day. That is the topic here. God calls those not doing that like "foxes in the deserts", and "foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!"


6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, 'The LORD saith': and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

Those claim God spoke to them and He did not send them. Recall that the idea of being 'sent' by God has a special meaning in His Word. It's where the idea of the office of Apostle comes from. Those prophets say 'God said...' and He did not send them, which you'll find out how that is later here. Those hoped that others would confirm what they say, to make it believable.

7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, 'The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?'
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.

Make no mistake, God is telling us these prophets over the house of Israel are claiming God said when they are speaking lies. What lie? what vanity? what lying divination do they speak to make our Heavenly Father be against them? Keep going to find out.

9 And Mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of My people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

These prophets divining lies among the ten tribes will not be gathered by Christ, that's the gist of it.


10 Because, even because they have seduced My people, saying, 'Peace'; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

God reveals these prophets over the ten tribes for the end will be prophesying 'peace' when there really is no peace. What time is that about in relation to the "day of the LORD" timing above? It's just prior to Christ's coming, which is what timing? the tribulation timing! So there's going to be a false 'peace' for the future tribulation coming in our near future? YES! That's what Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Thess.5 with the deceived saying, "Peace and safety". We are also forewarned in the Book of Daniel about the vile person (Antichrist) that's to come and destroy many using 'peace', and that craft will prosper in his hand (Dan.8:25). Who hasn't heard about today's false 'one-world peace' ideas the globalists are trying to create with their new world order system over all nations?

God says here one built up a wall with that fake world peace idea, and others daubed it with untempered mortar. Ever try to lay bricks with concrete mortar that never hardens? That's God's meaning here, comparing their one-world peace to laying a wall of bricks with slush instead of mortar that hardens.

11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

Have we heard about great hailstones weighing a talent upon the wicked on the last day of this present world? Yes, our Lord Jesus revealed that in His Revelation. That's what this stormy wind is about too, the time of the end with Christ's coming when the 4 winds of Rev.7 will "blow" upon the earth, ending this present world time. God compares their false one-world peace falling down to the ground like a great storm will cause a wall built with untempered mortar to fall down.


12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, "Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?"

When that wall falls down, won't it be said to them which daubed it, "Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?" where is your mortar (false one world peace) you built that weak wall with?


13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in My fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in Mine anger, and great hailstones in My fury to consume it.

There's those great hailstones for the end again. God is going to burn that false wall up, consume it.

14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, "The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;
16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace", saith the Lord GOD.


Peace for Jerusalem? Just who... has been trying to establish peace in Jerusalem today? Ever heard of the Oslo Accords of 1993, one of the latest supposed peace agreed concerning Jerusalem to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? What about the Camp David accords of 1978? Even today these one-world diplomats are still negotiating a peace for Jerusalem. According the prophecy given Daniel, a peace pact will be made for the very end prior to Christ's return, and will start the tribulation time with the appearance of the final Antichrist in Jerusalem.

17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?


This is where God gets down to the nitty-gritty of what these prophets over His people do with prophesying out of their own hearts. These prophets are put for 'women' here in the sense of their weakness as compared to men that make a stand (no offense towards woman intended). It's simply like God is calling these prophets little girls instead of men.

Their sewing pillows to all armholes is not a good translation from the Hebrew. The actual idea is how they sew coverings over His people's arms to hide God from them, just so they can hunt the souls of His people. Just what do those prophets hunt the souls of God's people for? Keep going.


19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?


These false prophets that say God said, and He didn't send them, speak lies that God did not say. And they do it for MONEY. That's what that pieces of bread and handfuls of barley represents. In Joun 10 our Lord Jesus warned us about the 'hireling', those who preach for gain and will run when the wolves creep in, instead of making a stand for His sheep. By their false teachings, they attack the souls that should not die, and instead try to save the souls of the wicked that should die.


20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

This Hebrew word for "to make them fly" can mean to blossum, to bud, and specifically... to FLY (Strong's 6524).

So what specific doctrine for the last days have we been hearing that involves trying to make the souls of God's people 'fly'? It is the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men. God says He is going to let those souls go, tear them from the arms of those false prophets who divine lies.


21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
(KJV)

WHEN will this delivering out of the hands of those false prophets happen? It will occur at Christ's second coming when He comes to gather His Church to go to Jerusalem. Which souls is this about? The souls that these false prophets deceived.

Thus the preaching of the false Pre-trib secret Rapture doctrine has a penalty with it, which we read about in the previous Ezek.13:9 verse, they won't be gathered and will not enter into the holy lands when Jesus returns to gather His Church after the tribulation.

*****
Good post, Veteran.

Unfortunately, sound doctrine does little to instruct those who have chosen to believe a lie.

The rapture folk prefer Star Trek fantasies and doctrines of demons to logic, studied analysis of scripture and traditional interpretations.

While the Bible is quite clear that Christ will return, the rapture crowd has Him bouncing up and down like an OT prophet on a trampoline. The entire field of discussion is absurd in the extreme. It also ignores Jesus' prayer that the father NOT take Christians out of the world, but that He (the Father) would protect them from the evil one* (which is why rapture myths have the Holy Spirit leaving town just before the trampoline act).

Cudos to you Veteran for pointing out in no uncertain terms the truth about this semi-new heresy.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*)
John 17:15

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

There are to many Pre-trib rapture scriptures for it not to be true.

I think that is the best way to say it Allan ..... the bible may be skimpy on the details but when all the other possibilities are compared ... the pre-trib rapture remains the best contender (scripturaly)

And when we consider that the NT has many instructions for Christians ..... you would expect there would be a whole book on surviving the tribulation if it was a concern.

And furthermore .... if God leaves his church here to suffer wrath along with the un-godly .... he will break his perfect record of removing his people first .

When Noah and his family boarded the ark .... I do not believe God left even one righteous person behind to perish in the flood

I do not believe there were any righteous people left to die in Sodom and Gomorrah

I do not believe even one Israelite got wet when God drowned the enemy in the Red Sea.

The rapture folk prefer Star Trek fantasies and doctrines of demons to logic, studied analysis of scripture and traditional interpretations.

I dont know who you have been hanging around sir ..... but you need to get out more .... the pre-trib scholars are some of the most careful and cautious people when it comes to this issue.

I have never found even one who reverts to Star Trek fantasies or is involved with demonology

It also ignores Jesus' prayer that the father NOT take Christians out of the world, but that He (the Father) would protect them from the evil one* (which is why rapture myths have the Holy Spirit leaving town just before the trampoline act).

John 17:15

You need to read John 17:15 again .... Jesus is praying for His apostles

In verse 20 he begins praying for the believers

And you accuse us of bending scriptures !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[[email protected]]

I think that is the best way to say it Allan ..... the bible may be skimpy on the details but when all the other possibilities are compared ... the pre-trib rapture remains the best contender (scripturaly)

And when we consider that the NT has many instructions for Christians ..... you would expect there would be a whole book on surviving the tribulation if it was a concern.

And furthermore .... if God leaves his church here to suffer wrath along with the un-godly .... he will break his perfect record of removing his people first .

When Noah and his family boarded the ark .... I do not believe God left even one righteous person behind to perish in the flood

I do not believe there were any righteous people left to die in Sodom and Gomorrah

I do not believe even one Israelite got wet when God drowned the enemy in the Red Sea.


I dont know who you have been hanging around sir ..... but you need to get out more .... the pre-trib scholars are some of the most careful and cautious people when it comes to this issue.

I have never found even one who reverts to Star Trek fantasies or is involved with demonology


You need to read John 17:15 again .... Jesus is praying for His apostles

In verse 20 he begins praying for the believers

And you accuse us of bending scriptures !!!!!!!!!!!

***
Your scholarship leaves much to be desired. Do not quote those who market lies to me, friend. Their words are empty and I'll tell you why. Not that you'll accept any of it. You're so set in your ways you don't dare investigate any of what I write here. Like those who warned Columbus you're afraid you'll fall off the edge of the flat world that comprises your theology. There is truth beyond the limited horizon you perceive if only you'll dare to sail out and have a look.

I've written it before and I'll write it again so that those who prefer to live in myth may be properly educated.
If they choose to continue to believe a lie, that is their error not mine.

The rapture fetish began in earnest through the publications of John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century. Look it up. I dare you.

Modern writers, no matter how many letters they've got after their name, merely continue to write to the uneducated masses TO SELL THEIR BOOKS. It's called income and it involves milking the gullible out of their hard earned dollars. I ought to know, I am employed by a local college and the text book scam perpetuated upon innocent students has become a national issue. (The typical author of such books can make a minimum of 80k/yr over and above his/her salary) There's a LOT of money to be made in selling foolishness. A LOT. Look it up. I dare you.

Naturally the origins of the rapture heresy in Darby's book (and lecture series which garnered a fortune for the guy - no fool was he), will be denied (without studying the situation at all I may add). Darby had already published his theories about Dispensationalism and was busily touring America and Britain when he bumped into a couple of spiritualists. Keeping such company had a questionable effect upon Darby's blather, but the truth is that a man IS according to the company he keeps. Demonic influences definitely had an effect upon his lecture series if not his publication. Look it up. I dare you.

The rapture, as a doctrine of demons, continued to grow until a conference was held in the early twentieth century in Niagara Falls, NY. It was called the Niagara Conference (catchy name - I wonder how they came up with it). It's purpose was to gather representatives of all Protestant denominations in America into one place to define and agree upon basic acceptable doctrine. Sort of a modern Nicene Conference, except that it didn't go well. Mid-summer in upstate NY without air conditioning makes for hot tempers and short meetings. A lot of the delegates walked out because a certain group of Baptists refused to let go of certain heretical notions - the rapture and the three or four stage tribulation (they still can't decide can they - gee I wonder why). Look it up. I dare you.

Post Niagara left us with two issues.

First was the publication of a twelve part series of books on the basics of Christian faith called THE FUNDAMENTALS (each copy is as thick as the Manhattan phone book - I know because I've held them in my hands). Hence the name Fundamentalist for those who accept the arguments written therein.

Second was the persistent false doctrines of the rapture and tribulation. To this day the logic is so muddled and incomplete that even those who accept the idea are confused* and cannot agree with one another as to which version to accept. Meanwhile they do the obvious - rattle off scripture quotations that they twist like pretzels to conform to their idea, building and justifying their tower of babbling for one purpose only; TO SELL BOOKS. As a consumer of such trash, I can understand that you probably don't want to consider that you've wasted your money and time - or admit that you've been fished into an ideological net you cannot escape.

Faith in Christ is the sole motivation for studying and quoting the Bible, not to advance religious conspiracy theories.

If you're still following me I advance one challenge - look it up. I dare you.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion, but demons ARE. Examine the evidence from the proponents of the rapture. They are all very confused about their ideology - pretrib, midtrib, post trib, even post post trib (that's 4 times they've got Jesus coming and going). Jacob's ladder was not an escalator boys and girls. The fruit alone ought to persuade you of its error. IT IS CONFUSED and nothing of God comes to us in a confused package. Look it up. I dare you.

 

[veteran]

I don't know what's set you so vehemently in opposition, but I believe that both of you, Arnie and Veteran, are sincere followers of our Lord. I don't understand everything Veteran is talking about, but that doesn't make it wrong, but even if he should be mistaken in anything, he's entitled to his understanding. Arnie, I trust that you're seeking Christ, but I certainly agree with Veteran that the pre-trib rapture is a lie straight out of hell. We could both be mistaken in that, but our stance is upon the word of God, not on some doctrine built with bits and pieces of scriptures taken out of their context. Name calling and vitriol doesn't serve Christ's purposes, so I call the both of you to peace. Our understanding changes according to the plan of our teacher who is unwilling to teach us more than we can bear, but the Word of God abides forever. No one who trusts in the Lord will be ashamed in the end, so do you both have your trust in Him? That should be enough. We should be here on these forums to edify each other, to teach, to learn, to grow in the knowledge of the Lord. We're all seeking the mind of Christ and attaining toward that goal should bring us all closer together, not push us further apart. The first rule in our hearts should be grace and love toward each other. Its only our pride that makes our fleshly natures rise up in division, so I ask you to submit to His Spirit and humble yourselves in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and give no place for the adversary. I'm certainly endeavoring to do that and by His grace, I believe that we can maintain the bond of peace and serve the Lord together in the manner He approves and intends for His body. Amen.

It would be nice if there could be peace, but because of the false crept in unwares who create such doctrines as the fasle Pre-trib fly away rapture, that is not possible in this present time with Christ's coming still yet.

Per Apostle Paul, we are to seek peace with all men as much as it is possible within us. He never said to not rebuke falseness found within Christ's Body.

So, how can we 'know' for sure when a doctrine is false? By God's Holy Writ as the measure. And God's Word has been shown here on many threads as written being against such ideas as the Pre-trib fly away rapture doctrine, yet the stubborness of those on that doctrine still remains, unto their destruction.

There are to many Pre-trib rapture scriptures for it not to be true.
Only Biblical ignorant people, And those who mis-quote scriptures, Don't accept the Biblical teachings of the pre-trib rapture.

Those who believe the Church goes through the great tribulation, Either don't know the Bible, Or they are calling God a decieving liar.

What you are saying is, You don't believe the Bible is true.
Of cause you can believe what you want to, But I will believe the Bible. And it teaches the pre-trib rapture.

Any time you desire to try and prove those Scriptures as supporting the Pre-trib secret fly away rapture of men, I'll show you how they do not, and how you have been listening to men instead of God in His Word.

I dont know who you have been hanging around sir ..... but you need to get out more .... the pre-trib scholars are some of the most careful and cautious people when it comes to this issue.

We should verify per God's Word for ourselves what even the scholars teach, just as Apostle Paul commended those at Berea for checking him out in God's Word for theirselves. And Apostle Paul was an excellent scholar of God's Word, having been trained under the best Hebrew scholar of his day, Gamaliel. So there's the blueprint for that.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Hi Veteran,
The pre-trib rapture doctrine has a very strong appeal to our carnal nature and I swallowed it hook, line, and sinker when I was young in the faith. It took quite a while for the Holy Spirit to change my understanding. I think that we need to be patient with people and trust to the Spirit within them to convince them of the truth, assuming that they are indeed Christs. I believe that there is an admonition to judge no one before "the time." When so many respected teachers have been teaching the doctrine for so long, I believe that it will be necessary for those teachers to admit their error before many with less knowledge accept the truth. For me, Revelation 20:4-6 blasted the doctrine out of the water, but apparently some folks have no problem "adding" to the book to make the doctrine work. I don't think that they realize the implication of their teaching, but pride makes it difficult for a person to admit that they've been wrong. Isn't it sad that teaching the doctrine could bring them under the curse and cause them to experience the very things that they fear?

 

[veteran]

Hi Veteran,
The pre-trib rapture doctrine has a very strong appeal to our carnal nature and I swallowed it hook, line, and sinker when I was young in the faith. It took quite a while for the Holy Spirit to change my understanding. I think that we need to be patient with people and trust to the Spirit within them to convince them of the truth, assuming that they are indeed Christs. I believe that there is an admonition to judge no one before "the time." When so many respected teachers have been teaching the doctrine for so long, I believe that it will be necessary for those teachers to admit their error before many with less knowledge accept the truth. For me, Revelation 20:4-6 blasted the doctrine out of the water, but apparently some folks have no problem "adding" to the book to make the doctrine work. I don't think that they realize the implication of their teaching, but pride makes it difficult for a person to admit that they've been wrong. Isn't it sad that teaching the doctrine could bring them under the curse and cause them to experience the very things that they fear?

You may not realize what's coming in our near future when the pseudo-Christ arrives and those on the Pre-trib Rapture theory are told by their false prophets to go flee to that false one. This certainly is not about judging, it's about presenting the warnings as written in God's Word, even to them. We in Christ Jesus have the duty to warn them, even though they may hate us for it.

And they will especially... hate us during the coming tribulation, which they will not recognize as the tribulation, but instead think that Jesus has come as that pseudo-Christ that's to appear in Jerusalem first. Just as the Pre-Trib doctors have modified that doctrine over the years since the 1800's, they'll do the same when the pseudo-Christ arrives. Then those of us who remain steadfast waiting on the True Christ will be seen by them as their enemy!

That is how many of us will be delivered up to Satan's hosts during the tribulation. Even loved ones trapped in that Pre-trib Rapture idea will do that, which is part of what our Lord Jesus was pointing to in His Olivet Discourse to us per Matt.24 & Mark 13.

Will I hate them for that? No, of course not. Do I hate them now? No, of course not. But don't expect them to have the same feelings towards us.

When our Lord Jesus is revealed and subdues all the wicked on this earth at His coming, only THEN... will they realize what they have done against His faithful who make a stand for Him during the tribulation.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I'm inclined to believe that sound doctrine will win in the end, but time will tell and probably sooner than later.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

The rapture fetish began in earnest through the publications of John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century. Look it up. I dare you.

Started much earlier than that .... sorry

Here is a sermon by Christian teacher Ephraem the Syrian in the year A.D. 373 ...... For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.

 

[veteran]

Started much earlier than that .... sorry

Here is a sermon by Christian teacher Ephraem the Syrian in the year A.D. 373 ...... For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.

That's Revisionism by the Pre-trib doctors like Thomas Ice. Ephraem's actual treastise was a Post-trib coming.

 

[michaelvpardo]

*****
Good post, Veteran.

Unfortunately, sound doctrine does little to instruct those who have chosen to believe a lie.

The rapture folk prefer Star Trek fantasies and doctrines of demons to logic, studied analysis of scripture and traditional interpretations.

While the Bible is quite clear that Christ will return, the rapture crowd has Him bouncing up and down like an OT prophet on a trampoline. The entire field of discussion is absurd in the extreme. It also ignores Jesus' prayer that the father NOT take Christians out of the world, but that He (the Father) would protect them from the evil one* (which is why rapture myths have the Holy Spirit leaving town just before the trampoline act).

Cudos to you Veteran for pointing out in no uncertain terms the truth about this semi-new heresy.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*)
John 17:15

I tip my hat to the choir loft. Arnie Manitoba started another thread discussing the doctrine, and we're trying to approach the topic with "open minds," though he is aware of my own opposition to it. I believe that the Truth will make itself known through the Spirit of Truth, but our fleshly nature is dominated largely by fear and facing the Great Tribulation is a fearful thing. I think that its always best to present the Truth in love and to avoid hammering people whenever possible (and I'm preaching to myself as much as to anyone else.) We can present our understanding with scripture and with logic, but only the Holy Spirit can "convince" someone of the Truth. I enjoy your posts and appreciate your wisdom. I suppose that with me the "KISS" rule applies, but I appreciate it when folks bear with me. I'm just endeavoring to persevere (though I beleive that it is His Spirit that will do just that through me, Amen.)

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I am guilty at times for dumping all over folks like Veteran and others
And it is for one simple reason
It is not because they do not believe in the rapture
It is because all they ever do is tell the rapture folks how wrong they are

PERIOD !!

They never discuss the pros and cons of all possibilities
The rapture folks always try to look at all sides and study carefully
Pro-rapture theology always studies mid-trib and post-trib rapture and lists all the pros and cons of each
That does not mean the pre-trib rapture folks are always correct
But it is the proper way to approach this (difficult) topic
Rapture doctrine is a "best guess" at the best of times.

I think the root of the problem (for someone like Veteran) .... is that he feels "the lie" of the endtimes delusion is pre-rapture teachings ... that is where he goes wrong (in my opinion anyway)

I am going to start a new thread so we can all speculate what "the lie" will be (or is)
I do not claim to know the answer at this moment
Maybe we can learn something together



Update here it is ... thanks
Speculating on ... "the lie" ... (endtimes)
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18793-speculating-on-the-lie-endtimes/

 

[veteran]

I tip my hat to the choir loft. Arnie Manitoba started another thread discussing the doctrine, and we're trying to approach the topic with "open minds," though he is aware of my own opposition to it. I believe that the Truth will make itself known through the Spirit of Truth, but our fleshly nature is dominated largely by fear and facing the Great Tribulation is a fearful thing. I think that its always best to present the Truth in love and to avoid hammering people whenever possible (and I'm preaching to myself as much as to anyone else.) We can present our understanding with scripture and with logic, but only the Holy Spirit can "convince" someone of the Truth. I enjoy your posts and appreciate your wisdom. I suppose that with me the "KISS" rule applies, but I appreciate it when folks bear with me. I'm just endeavoring to persevere (though I beleive that it is His Spirit that will do just that through me, Amen.)

I agree with you pretty much. But from what I've experienced here those on the Pre-Trib Rapture don't really want to address Bible Scripture in context that disproves their theories. Time and time again, and not just by me, a discussion with them turns into one big denial of Scripture fest on their part, and the main reason usually is they simply are not listening to God in His Word, but only regurgitate popular doctrines of men that they've had drilled in their heads. Then, when they see no way around the Scripture one points out to them that goes against their doctrine, they get angry and start insulting behaviour, forcing you to go on the defensive.

So should the Biblically learned just say nothing to them, and not try to steer them away from that doctrinal error, even though we only plant a seed which only God can make grow?

I am guilty at times for dumping all over folks like Veteran and others
And it is for one simple reason
It is not because they do not believe in the rapture
It is because all they ever do is tell the rapture folks how wrong they are

PERIOD !!

Now see folks, Michael V? That's the attitude from many Pre-Trib Rapture folks I'm talking about.

Do you see how Arnie quickly side-stepped the fact that many of us have tried, and tried, to get him (and others on that doctrine) to look plainly... at the Scripture and read it as it is actually written, and he instead immediately goes to excuses like, "... it's because all they ever do is tell the rapture folks how wrong they are"?

That attitude is absolutely skirtting the main issue which is about pointing out Scripture to them which goes against that Pre-trib Rapture doctrine. That doctrine is wrong NOT because 'we' say so; it is wrong because God's written Word as the Measure reveals that it is wrong.