Did Jesus claim to be God?

[Peterlag]

It is likely that Jesus was speaking Hebrew at the time, or perhaps Aramaic. He was addressing the Pharisees after all, and He very likely spoke to them in Hebrew. If He was speaking Hebrew, He would have said אהיה (hâyâh), which John would have rendered ego eimi in Greek. According to the Aramaic Targum Onqelos, it would be אֶהְיה(hâyâh - the exact same written form as Hebrew), which John would also have translated ego eimi in Greek ('I am' in English). From Albert Barnes Commentary... The expression I am, though in the present tense, is clearly designed to refer to a past time. Thus, in Psa_90:2, “From everlasting to everlasting thou art God.” Applied to God, it denotes continued existence without respect to time, so far as he is concerned. We divide time into the past, the present, and the future. The expression, applied to God, denotes that he does not measure his existence in this manner, but that the word by which we express the present denotes his continued and unchanging existence. Hence, he assumes it as his name, “I AM,” and “I AM that I AM,” Exo_3:14. Compare Isa_44:6; Isa_47:8. There is a remarkable similarity between the expression employed by Jesus in this place and that used in Exodus to denote the name of God. The manner in which Jesus used it would strikingly suggest the application of the same language to God. The question here was about his pre-existence. The objection of the Jews was that he was not 50 years old, and could not, therefore, have seen Abraham. Jesus replied to that that he existed before Abraham. As in his human nature he was not yet 50 years old, and could not, as a man, have existed before Abraham, this declaration must be referred to another nature; and the passage proves that, while he was a man, he was also endowed with another nature existing before Abraham, and to which he applied the term (familiar to the Jews as expressive of the existence of God) I AM; and this declaration corresponds to the affirmation of John, that he was in the beginning with God, and was God. This affirmation of Jesus is one of the proofs on which John relies to prove that he was the Messiah, to establish which was the design of writing this book (Barnes).​
​	prin abraam genesqai egw eimi PRIN ABRAAM GENESTHAI EGÔ EIMI Before Abraham came to be, I am​
F U R T H E R R E A D I N G​	I recently became aware* of how the WTBTS translates John 8:58 in the Greek NWT (that is, the modern Greek translation that Witnesses in Greece use). While one might expect them to leave it untranslated (as the verb eimi means the same today as it did in Jesus' day), they actually change it to ego huparchw (egw uparcw), which even though is roughly synonymous with "I am," can also mean "I began" or "I came forth." They do this despite the fact that in other modern Greek NTs, it is left as ego eimi("I am"). It seems the WT will go to any lengths to make sure Jesus does not identify Himself as ego eimi.​

Jesus was spoken about... that he would be coming before Abraham was mentioned.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The teachings are there – YOUR refusal to believe, notwithstanding . . .

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], “My Lord and my GOD!”

Matt. 4:7
Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your GOD to the test.’”

Phil. 2:6
...Who [Jesus], being in the form of GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.”

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 1:8 (Psalm 45:6)
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O GOD, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great GOD and our Savior Jesus Christ

Not one of those verses says in the original Greek, what has been erroneously translated into English....you have been duped by your ancient predecessors......the “weeds” of Jesus’ parable. The so called “church fathers” were “sleeping” (spiritually) just as Jesus said....allowing the introduction of all manner of paganism to dictate doctrine when the final fusion of weakened Christianity and pagan Roman sun worship was established in the 4th century.

Look at your avatar to see sun worship as the foundation of the Roman Catholic church. There it is in plain sight. Did Jesus fashion the bread he “broke” into the shape of the sun? Or was that a pagan Roman touch?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ok… let’s look at it in a simplistic fashion.

You say, God was working through Jesus correct?
Was Jesus a man?

Yes…..he had to become a human equivalent to Adam in order to pay the price of redemption…..
God “sent” Jesus, who is called in the scriptures, “God’s holy servant” (Acts 4:27)…..please tell me how God can be “sent” to become his own “servant”….?

 

[Aunty Jane]

What do you make of the fact that Jesus says that true "worshipers" (proskynētai) will "worship" (proskynēsousin) the Father, and that this is the "worship" (prosekynēsen) that is offered Jesus?

Reverential acts can be carried out towards God and others who warrant it…

This how Strongs defines the word “proskyneō” as follows….

1. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2. among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3. in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
   1. used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
      1. to the Jewish high priests
      2. to God
      3. to Christ
      4. to heavenly beings
      5. to demons

Proskyneo Strongs

See the link above to see how this word is used in other scripture….

Because this “token of reverence” can be rendered to all of the above, we can see that it does not always mean “worship” but in the Bible it has a much broader meaning.

 

[Peterlag]

Yes…..he had to become a human equivalent to Adam in order to pay the price of redemption…..
God “sent” Jesus, who is called in the scriptures, “God’s holy servant” (Acts 4:27)…..please tell me how God can be “sent” to become his own “servant”….?

I got a guy telling me that anything is possible with God and another one telling me that maybe God did not write everything down the way He did it to which I replied... It is not written.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Not one of those verses says in the original Greek, what has been erroneously translated into English....you have been duped by your ancient predecessors......the “weeds” of Jesus’ parable. The so called “church fathers” were “sleeping” (spiritually) just as Jesus said....allowing the introduction of all manner of paganism to dictate doctrine when the final fusion of weakened Christianity and pagan Roman sun worship was established in the 4th century.

Look at your avatar to see sun worship as the foundation of the Roman Catholic church. There it is in plain sight. Did Jesus fashion the bread he “broke” into the shape of the sun? Or was that a pagan Roman touch?

Ummmm, for your information, my ignorant friend - the circular shape of the host has about God's infinite existence.
It has nothing to do with "sun worship".

Looks like someone has been reading to many Jack Chick comic books based on Alexander Hislop's debunked schlock opus, "The Two Babylons".

Do your homework . . .

 

[Peterlag]

Ummmm, for your information, my ignorant friend - the circular shape of the host has about God's infinite existence.
It has nothing to do with "sun worship".

Looks like someone has been reading to many Jack Chick comic books based on Alexander Hislop's debunked schlock opus, "The Two Babylons".

Do your homework . . .

What I want to know is why the communion in the first place.

 

[GracePeace]

Reverential acts can be carried out towards God and others who warrant it…

This how Strongs defines the word “proskyneō” as follows….

1. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2. among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3. in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
   1. used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
      1. to the Jewish high priests
      2. to God
      3. to Christ
      4. to heavenly beings
      5. to demons

Proskyneo Strongs

See the link above to see how this word is used in other scripture….

Because this “token of reverence” can be rendered to all of the above, we can see that it does not always mean “worship” but in the Bible it has a much broader meaning.

Obviously, though, the Samaritan woman was asking about how to worship God in a religious sense--and Jesus answered that, yes, the religious worship of God had been happening in Jerusalem, but that a time was coming when people would worship, religiously, God in spirit and truth... this is not a mere "reverence" in this context.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ummmm, for your information, my ignorant friend - the circular shape of the host has about God's infinite existence.
It has nothing to do with "sun worship".

Looks like someone has been reading to many Jack Chick comic books based on Alexander Hislop's debunked schlock opus, "The Two Babylons".

Do your homework . . .

Show us where in scripture that the sun features in the worship of the true God. I can show you many places where it is featured in Catholic worship.
It was a deft move indeed to transfer Roman “sun” worship over to Roman “Son” worship. Did nobody notice? How could they when all they had was an indoctrinated priesthood and a corrupt pope to lead the entire church into false worship and idolatry.

Who had the ability to check the scriptures for themselves to find out if what they were fed was true…? The Bible was forbidden to the common man.
The fact that there is a Babylonian sun wheel in the middle of St Peter’s Square (which is also round like the sun) with an Egyptian obelisk in the middle, representing the sun god Ra, should provoke at least some questions as to why it is even there…? Symbols of false worship right there in plain sight.

Maybe you have been listening to the the ones who have been telling you ‘porky pies’….?
Do you need to do your own homework….?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Those are not a teaching. Those are pieces (in this case 7 of them) that are scattered all over the New Testament. And again all of them are twisted. Here for an example I will do John 8:58

At the last super, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ. They said literally, "Not I am, Lord" Matthew 26:22, 25. No one would say the disciples were trying to deny they were God because they were using the phrase "Not I am." "I am" was a common way of designating oneself and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. The argument is made that because Jesus was "before" Abraham, Jesus must be God. Jesus figuratively existed in Abraham's time. He did not actually physically exist as a person, but rather he existed in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man. In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus' "I am" statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God's "I am" statement in Exodus 3:14. The two statements are very different. The Greek phrase in John does mean "I am." The Hebrew phrase in Exodus means "to be" or "to become." God was saying "I will be what I will be."

WRONG.

First of all, "I AM" doesn't make grammatical sense as an answer to the Pharisees' question:
John 8"57
So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”

For YOUR scenario to make sense - He would have to have said, "Before Abraham, I WAS"

Secoindly - the Hebrew word, (hayah) means “to be”
The Greek phrase, (ἐγὼ εἰμί) mans “to be” as well.

And you’ll have to explain why, in verse 59 it says:
John 8:59
At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

They tried to stone Him to death, which was the legal prescription for blasphemy.
There is NOTHING else in Hisstatement that would amount to blasphemy other than claiming to be God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

What I want to know is why the communion in the first place.

Becaus eit wa commanded by Jesus (Luke 22:19, John 6:53-58).

 

[GracePeace]

Becaus eit wa commanded by Jesus (Luke 22:19, John 6:53-58).

Interestingly, your first "Pope", Peter, interpreted Jesus's teaching there as referring to "words of eternal life"--because "the Word became flesh", believing His Words is "eating Christ's flesh" ("your words were found and I ate them"), and faith confers eternal life.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Obviously, though, the Samaritan woman was asking about how to worship God in a religious sense--and Jesus answered that, yes, the religious worship of God had been happening in Jerusalem, but that a time was coming when people would worship, religiously, God in spirit and truth... this is not a mere "reverence" in this context.

The word when applied to God means “worship” in that sense….but the same word when applied to any other is not “worship”…it is a reverent act of respect (obeisance).

What was offered to the man Jesus, cannot be “worship” because he said the the devil “it is Jehovah your God you must worship and to him alone you must render sacred service”. (Luke 4:5-8; Deut 10:20)

The apostles would never have accepted that their Messiah was God incarnate……the Jews tried to pin a barge of blasphemy on Jesus by simply calling God his father…..He never once said he was God.

 

[GracePeace]

The word when applied to God means “worship” in that sense….but the same word when applied to any other is not “worship”…it is a reverent act of respect (obeisance).

I don't know that your interpretation is trustworthy here. You have to give me some examples.

What was offered to the man Jesus, cannot be “worship” because he said the the devil “it is Jehovah yo God you must worship and to him alone you must render sacred service”. (Luke 4:5-8; Deut 10:20)

OK, but the entire discussion is on whether Christ is to be considered "God", in some sense, so you cannot simply presuppose the correctness of your view, and then say, "See why my view is correct? Because my view is correct!" That's a logical fallacy called "Begging The Question" I believe.

 

[Sigma]

Moses said to God that the children of Israel will ask the name of the one who sent him, then asked what name shall he tell them: "Καὶ εἶπε Μωυσῆς πρὸς τὸν Θεὸν, ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξελεύσομαι πρὸς τοὺς υἱοὺς ᾿Ισραὴλ, καὶ ἐρῶ πρὸς αὐτοὺς, Θεὸς τῶν πατέρων ἡμῶν ἀπέσταλκέ με πρὸς ὑμᾶς: ἐρωτήσουσί με, τί ὄνομα αὐτῷ; τί ἐρῶ. πρὸς αὐτούς; Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν, λέγων, ἐγώ εἰμι ὃ "Qu: (I AM THE BEING): καὶ εἶπεν, οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ἰσραὴλ, ὁ Ὧν ἀπέσταλκέ με πρὸς ὑμᾶς (say to the children of Israel THE BEING has sent me to you)." (Ex. 3:13-14)

Fast forward to the scene of Jn. 8:58, where Jesus claimed to be eternal and to have existed before Abraham, but more importantly, He called himself by the ancient title ascribed only to God Himself: "...πρὶν (before) Ἀβραὰμ (Abraham) γενέσθαι ἐγὼ (I) εἰμί (AM)." The Pharisees knew exactly what Jesus meant by this. From their perspective, Jesus said specifically, “I am God.” How do we know this was their interpretation of His words? We know it from their reaction. They responded by attempting to stone Jesus for claiming to be God (an act of blasphemy they considered worthy of death): "ἦραν (picked) οὖν λίθους (stones) ἵνα (to) βάλωσιν (throw) ἐπ' (at) αὐτόν (him): Ἰησοῦς δὲ ἐκρύβη καὶ ἐξῆλθεν ἐκ τοῦ ἱεροῦ," but He escaped them (Jn. 8:59).

Now, how was Jesus existing before Abraham was born? As He's always existed: as the Word with God (ὁ (the) λόγος (Word) ἦν (was) πρὸς τὸν (with) θεόν (God), and at the same time also as God (θεὸς (God) ἦν (was) ὁ (the) λόγος (Word) (Jn. 1:1), the eternal God "Θεὸς αἰώνιος" (Gen. 21:33), and the Word (God) became flesh and dwelt among us (Jn. 1:14).

In Jn. 10:22-36, again the Pharisees understood Jesus was calling Himself God, and they wanted to kill him for it, for they said: "ἀπεκρίθησαν αὐτῷ οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι, Περὶ καλοῦ ἔργου οὐ λιθάζομέν (stone) σε (you) ἀλλὰ περὶ (for) βλασφημίας (blasphemy), καὶ ὅτι σὺ ἄνθρωπος ὢν ποιεῖς (making) σεαυτὸν (yourself) θεόν (God)" (Jn. 10:33), and Jesus didn't deny it because He did as He's God Incarnate.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don't know that your interpretation is trustworthy here. You have to give me some examples.

Perhaps I can give you a secular example to show that the word “worship” as used even in the world, reflected the true meaning of the Bible’s definition…..

In Australia we follow the British system of justice and up until fairly recent decades the judge in a courtroom here was addressed as “Your Worship”…..but it did not have religious connotations in a worldly courtroom even though the Bible was used to swear that one was telling the truth…….but it was a reflection of the Biblical use of the Greek “proskyneo“ indicating a position warranting respect and honor.
In a courtroom in the USA a judge is addressed as “Your Honor” which is basically the same meaning….it is an address of respect.

OK, but the entire discussion is on whether Christ is to be considered "God", in some sense, so you cannot simply presuppose the correctness of your view, and then say, "See why my view is correct? Because my view is correct!" That's a logical fallacy called "Begging The Question" I believe.

There has been enough scripture posted on this thread for anyone to take a position on the question as to whether Jesus is deity, (equal to God) or one with a divine appointment from his God.
“Theos” (god) means both, just as “proskyneo” means both.…..it is context that determines the meaning…….so how much more do you need? Like I said before, we have to make a decision because when the judgment comes, there is no fence to sit on so that one can jump either way to save themselves……it is decision time NOW...then it will be too late….”just like the days of Noah”…(Matt 24:37-39)

 

[GracePeace]

The apostles would never have accepted that their Messiah was God incarnate……the Jews tried to pin a barge of blasphemy on Jesus by simply calling God his father…..He never once said he was God.

For someone who does not want people to think He is God, Christ, at the very least, plays around with that distinction quite a bit... he lets a man "worship" him, he says "I am", says men should honor the Son as they honor the Father, and doesn't correct Thomas when he calls Christ "God".

 

[GracePeace]

Perhaps I can give you a secular example to show that the word “worship” as used even in the world, reflected the true meaning of the Bible’s definition…..

In Australia we follow the British system of justice and up until fairly recent decades the judge in a courtroom here was addressed as “Your Worship”…..but it did not have religious connotations in a worldly courtroom even though the Bible was used to swear that one was telling the truth…….but it was a reflection of the Biblical use of the Greek “proskyneo“ indicating a position warranting respect and honor.
In a courtroom in the USA a judge is addressed as “Your Honor” which is basically the same meaning….it is an address of respect.

There has been enough scripture posted on this thread for anyone to take a position on the question as to whether Jesus is deity, (equal to God) or one with a divine appointment from his God.
“Theos” (god) means both, just as “proskyneo” means both.…..it is context that determines the meaning…….so how much more do you need? Like I said before, we have to make a decision because when the judgment comes, there is no fence to sit on so that one can jump either way to save themselves……it is decision time NOW...then it will be too late….”just like the days of Noah”…(Matt 24:37-39)

1. We're discussing the Bible, so we have to stick to the Bible.
2. "Proskuneo" was an act a man did in the passages I raised, it wasn't an "address" or "title".
3. As far as making a firm conclusion: you're not in control, and I'm more than happy to go before God (on this issue) and ask for clarification if I don't reach a firm conclusion before my time is up. I'm just not worried about it, because God is intelligent, and He knows the Scriptures are quite ambiguous on a number of things. He knows what He wrote in them. He is not going to blame us if we got stuck on some of the details He authored, and couldn't dare to reach a conclusion either way.

 

[Peterlag]

WRONG.

First of all, "I AM" doesn't make grammatical sense as an answer to the Pharisees' question:
John 8"57
So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”

For YOUR scenario to make sense - He would have to have said, "Before Abraham, I WAS"

Secoindly - the Hebrew word, (hayah) means “to be”
The Greek phrase, (ἐγὼ εἰμί) mans “to be” as well.

And you’ll have to explain why, in verse 59 it says:
John 8:59
At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

They tried to stone Him to death, which was the legal prescription for blasphemy.
There is NOTHING else in Hisstatement that would amount to blasphemy other than claiming to be God.

The New Testament Jews never accused him of being God. No where did they ever accuse him of that. They accused him of being the son of God... the Messiah. Trinitarians also commonly say that Jesus claimed to be God, and for that reason the Jews hated him and tried to kill him, but that is not the case because Jesus had been stating in various ways that he was the Messiah, and that is what the Jews were upset about. The Jews all throughout their history made a clear distinction between “God” and the “Messiah” and they did not think the Messiah was going to be God or a “Person” in a triune God. The Jews would not have considered Jesus a threat, but insane if he had walked around saying he was God.

 

[GracePeace]

Maybe it's nothing, but we certainly see a lot of bowing down and worshipping going on in the Book of Revelation... but the Lord Jesus is not bowing but being bowed to.