Did Jesus need a redeemer? Or was He The Redeemer?

[Clarity]

I could see how someone could believe that Jesus died spiritually in that He was cut off from the Father for a time for our sins (Key point being ours and not His.. He's Holy) before He was resurrected and went to sit at the Father's right hand... I could see how someone would take that out of scripture...

Hi Robbie,

I think the issue might be that the word 'spiritually' is a little ambiguous in this context.

If you were to say this however: Jesus died physically and in so doing was cut off from the Father for a time for our sins (Key point being ours and not His.. He's Holy) before He was resurrected and went to sit at the Father's right hand... I think that is quite a scripturally defensible position and quite clear!

 

[Duckybill]

I could see how someone could believe that Jesus died spiritually in that He was cut off from the Father for a time for our sins (Key point being ours and not His.. He's Holy) before He was resurrected and went to sit at the Father's right hand... I could see how someone would take that out of scripture...

True. Some are using this to make Jesus a sinner.

Spiritual death is caused by sinning:

Genesis 2:17 (ESV)
[sup]17 [/sup]but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Ezekiel 18:4 (ESV)
[sup]4 [/sup]Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Matthew 8:22 (ESV)
[sup]22 [/sup]And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”

Luke 15:24 (ESV)
[sup]24 [/sup]For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’

1 Timothy 5:6 (ESV)
[sup]6 [/sup]but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives.

Jesus did not die spiritually. He was not a sinner.

 

[Clarity]

Jesus did not die spiritually. He was not a sinner.[/size]

Amen.

When Jesus was in the grave he was alive in the same sense that Abraham was when Jesus said:

Matthew 22 (ESV)
31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God:
32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”

As I see it, though A, I & J lay unconscious in the grave when Jesus spoke these words, they were alive in the sense that their characters and standing with God was eternal and their resurrection guaranteed.

 

[veteran]

I think the Message in Hebrews 5 can easily be missed without taking the chapter as a 'whole', and without staying with the rest of the Messages in the Book of Hebrews about Christ.

Heb 5:1-10
1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

The high priests called of God for service was in offering gifts and sacrifices for the people, and for himself. It is a duty and honor to do that for those who were called of God. So that's the flesh man comparison for the duty of high priest under the Old Covenant.


5 So also Christ glorified not Himself to be made an high priest; but He That said unto Him, "Thou art My Son, to day have I begotten Thee."
6 As He saith also in another place, "Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."

That's about God already having exalted Christ as Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec, before He was born in the flesh.

In Hebrews 7, it is revealed that Melchisedec (King of Righteousness) was another title for Christ in Old Testament times. This Hebrews 5 reference to the order of Melchisedec is about Christ's fulfillment of that prophecy with His first coming and suffering on the cross...

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him That was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared;
8 Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered;
9 And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
(KJV)

That passage also affirms that Christ was made Perfect, meaning He had no sin.

What the Book of Hebrews is pointing to about Christ Jesus is His relationship with the order of Melchisedec, which relates to the OT prophecy. Since Hebrews 7 directly points to Melchisedec who met Abraham as actually being Christ during Old Testament times, that's also why Christ was made a High Priest for ever, after that order. It's symbolic of God's Role as our High Priest and King of Righteousness. The name Melchizedek comes from two Hebrew words, malki (king) and tsedeq (righteous). That's why Hebrews 7:2 defines the name to mean "king of righteousness". That's about our Lord Jesus Christ Who is King of The Just.

Leaving that Message out of the Hebrews 5 chapter and only applying a humanist flesh sense to Christ Jesus is to miss one of the most important revelations within that chapter about Christ as King prior to His being born in the flesh to die on the cross. In Gen.14 Melchizedek met Abraham and blessed him, and offered him "bread and wine" (later sacraments of The New Covenant).

But of course the unbelieving Jews will deny this revelation from the Book of Hebrews about Christ as OT Melchizedek, even though it is a Message especially meant for the Hebrew people in Christ Jesus to show them how God had foretold them in His Word from the start about Christ as King.

 

[veteran]

Amen.

When Jesus was in the grave he was alive in the same sense that Abraham was when Jesus said:

Matthew 22 (ESV)
31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God:
32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”

As I see it, though A, I & J lay unconscious in the grave when Jesus spoke these words, they were alive in the sense that their characters and standing with God was eternal and their resurrection guaranteed.

The dead in the ground doctrine is actually an old idea that relies literally on one's flesh body being resurrected, when God's Word reveals it is not our flesh that is resurrected, but our spirit.


Eccl 12:6-7
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.
(KJV)


1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(KJV)


2 Cor 5:1-2
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
(KJV)

 

[Alethos]

I think the Message in Hebrews 5 can easily be missed without taking the chapter as a 'whole', and without staying with the rest of the Messages in the Book of Hebrews about Christ.

Heb 5:1-10
1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

The high priests called of God for service was in offering gifts and sacrifices for the people, and for himself. It is a duty and honor to do that for those who were called of God. So that's the flesh man comparison for the duty of high priest under the Old Covenant.

5 So also Christ glorified not Himself to be made an high priest; but He That said unto Him, "Thou art My Son, to day have I begotten Thee."
6 As He saith also in another place, "Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."

That's about God already having exalted Christ as Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec, before He was born in the flesh.

In Hebrews 7, it is revealed that Melchisedec (King of Righteousness) was another title for Christ in Old Testament times. This Hebrews 5 reference to the order of Melchisedec is about Christ's fulfillment of that prophecy with His first coming and suffering on the cross...

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him That was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared;
8 Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered;
9 And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
(KJV)

That passage also affirms that Christ was made Perfect, meaning He had no sin.

What the Book of Hebrews is pointing to about Christ Jesus is His relationship with the order of Melchisedec, which relates to the OT prophecy. Since Hebrews 7 directly points to Melchisedec who met Abraham as actually being Christ during Old Testament times, that's also why Christ was made a High Priest for ever, after that order. It's symbolic of God's Role as our High Priest and King of Righteousness. The name Melchizedek comes from two Hebrew words, malki (king) and tsedeq (righteous). That's why Hebrews 7:2 defines the name to mean "king of righteousness". That's about our Lord Jesus Christ Who is King of The Just.

Leaving that Message out of the Hebrews 5 chapter and only applying a humanist flesh sense to Christ Jesus is to miss one of the most important revelations within that chapter about Christ as King prior to His being born in the flesh to die on the cross. In Gen.14 Melchizedek met Abraham and blessed him, and offered him "bread and wine" (later sacraments of The New Covenant).

But of course the unbelieving Jews will deny this revelation from the Book of Hebrews about Christ as OT Melchizedek, even though it is a Message especially meant for the Hebrew people in Christ Jesus to show them how God had foretold them in His Word from the start about Christ as King.

Heb 7:9 One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham,

Heb 7:10 for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him (Abraham).

Paul tells us "Levi paid tithes in Abraham, for he (Levi) was yet in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him (Abraham)."

Levi was Abraham's great grandson, and he was not born until more than 150 years after the time Paul said he was "in Abraham's loins" and "paid tithes."

Would you suggest also from this language that Levi pre-existed?

I think you will find that Jesus existed in God the same as Levi existed in Abraham, except Jesus existed in a much more vivid and positive sense, because he was the very center of His purpose, and everything was framed with him in mind, whereas Levi was, so to speak, just an ordinary man foreseen in Abraham.

I would be interested Veteran in your thoughts concerning the “order” of Melchizedek and how that relates to Christ. Are we able to find any scriptures which speak them being the same person?

However, I do appreciate your desire to see Christ everywhere, as he certainly fulfills the type of Melchizedek as our King / High Priest.



Alethos

 

[martinlawrencescott]

I think Jesus did die spiritually, and that to do so didn't require Him to be sinful. I think spiritual death is simply separation from God. Our sin separates us from God, and the sin we committed was placed on Jesus which separated Him from God to the point which He experienced the judgment and wrath of God for us. Jesus said "It is finished!" before he took His last breath which leads me to believe that what was completed at that moment was the spiritual severing taking place inside Him while on the cross.

 

[Duckybill]

I think Jesus did die spiritually, and that to do so didn't require Him to be sinful.

The verses I quoted are about spiritual death. Spiritual death is caused by committing sin. If Jesus died spiritually then we are all still in our sins.

 

[veteran]

Christ as Melchisedec of The Old Testament... the only way I know to cover it, because the 'key' verse requires much of the chapter as preparation.

Heb 7:1-17
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Melchisedec in Gen.14 met Abraham, blessed him, and gave him "bread and wine", symbols that would later become sacraments of The New Covenant. The Lord also met Abraham at his tent door in Gen.18 later, along with two men (angels) I believe were sent to save Lot out of Sodom and Gomorrah. The name Melchisedec means "King of righteousness".

There's only One Who has no beginning of days, nor end of life, and made like unto the Son of God. It's The Son of God Himself, our Lord Jesus Christ. That should be our first clue. The idea of abideth a priest continually is in the everlasting sense also, without end. Such is our Lord Jesus Christ.

4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

The Levite priests took tithes of the people of Israel per God's law. Yet Abraham tithed to Melchisedec.


6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

Melchisedec didn't descend from the Levites though. They came later, as Levi was still unborn in the loins of Abraham. The lesser is blessed by the greater, so how could Melchisedec bless Abraham, since even Levi wasn't yet born? Not only that, God's law wasn't given yet either when Melchisedec met Abraham, and Abraham tithed to him.


9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Even Levi gave tithes, having come from the seed of Abraham. But Levi wasn't born yet when Melchisedec met Abraham. And if perfection was by the Levitical priesthood, then why would another need be born after Melchisedec's order, instead of from Aaron?


12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

There's one of the 'keys'. The "For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe" points back to the very start of this chapter, about the one who has been spoken about so far. And who has that been up until these verses? Melchisedec. But right here Paul links the identity of Melchisedec with One Who was born of Israel, of the tribe of Judah.

That's another clue where this Heb.7 chapter is pointing directly to Christ as the Person of Melchisedec Who met Abrahaim in Gen.14.


15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

After the "similtude of Melchisedec"? This is talking about Christ being after the similtude of Melchisedec. It's direct connection to Christ. And just what KIND of similtude is that?...


16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Not after the law of a carnal commandment, like the Levitical priesthood, but after the power of an endless life, i.e., an everlasting priesthood, with beginning, with out end. Who could that only point to? Christ Jesus, for He is our High Priest.


17 For He testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Our Heavenly Father said that about our Lord Jesus Christ. And the idea of "for ever" don't just mean to count forward in time. It means everlasting, always existing, no beginning, no end. That's not a power attributed to just any man, but to God only.


18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20 And inasmuch as not without an oath He was made priest:
21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by Him That said unto Him, "The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:")

What the flesh Levitical priesthood couldn't establish because of weakness, the order of Melchisedec could. How's that? Because the order of Melchisedec is pointing to an everlasting eternal order, God's Heavenly order, without beginning without end. This is why the order of Melchisedec is applied to our Lord Jesus Christ, and can ONLY be about Christ and no other.


22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because He continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

Unchangeable means everlasting also, without beginning without end, and idea only applicable to God. Priests per the order of Aaron lose their priest office when they die. But this Priest never lost His Office as Priest, which is the meaning of, 'for ever after the order of Melchisedec.'

25 Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an High Priest became us, Who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
(KJV)

And once again, with the idea of "seeing He ever liveth" is another reference to Christ, even though He was born in the flesh like us, but was Perfect and without sin.


That Hebrews 7 chapter is pointing to Melchisedec of Gen.14 as Christ back in the Old Testament times, before He was born in the flesh to die on the cross. It makes sense then, why Melchisedec would offer Abraham bread and wine, seeing how Apostle Paul taught that Abraham's faith, 430 years before the law, represents the Faith on Jesus Christ that all Christians have believed (Gal.3).

So Melchisedec in the OT is a pointer to Christ as our High Priest PRIOR to the Old Covenant, and PRIOR to the New Covenant, representing His Salvation plan from the foundations of the world.

 

[Clarity]

The dead in the ground doctrine is actually an old idea that relies literally on one's flesh body being resurrected, when God's Word reveals it is not our flesh that is resurrected, but our spirit.

Eccl 12:6-7
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.
(KJV)

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(KJV)

2 Cor 5:1-2
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
(KJV)

Hi there veteran,

Thanks for this.

Yes I would certainly agree its an old idea, and I believe a very scriptural one.

It seems to me that we have verses all over the scripture that demonstrate that the resurrection will be of our literal body which will then be changed 'in the twinkling of an eye' (1st Cor. 15:52)

I'm thinking of verses like:

Daniel 12
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is precisely what the Lord taught too:

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Job appears to speak about how his flesh will decompose, only to be reconstituted again:

Job 19
25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth.
26 And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God,

David speaks about men whose portion is in this life, and then contrasts that with his personal hope which is going to result in him awaking from his sleep of death.

Psalm 17
15 As for me, I shall behold your face in righteousness; when I awake, I shall be satisfied with your likeness.

It appears that his being made like God is something which occurs after resurrection.

This accords with 1st Corinthians 15:

51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

Its true that flesh and blood won't inherit the kingdom which is why the 'flesh body', though physically raised is 'changed'. It becomes 'imperishable'. It becomes 'immortal'.

The whole context of 1st Corinthians 15 is about resurrection. And its noteworthy that in this context and by way of analogy in order to explain the process, Paul speaks about seeds which are sown in the ground.

37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.

42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.

The Lord had demonstrated a physical resurrection:

John 11
43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.”
44 The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”

And in Ezekiel 37 we have a prophetic passage, that although prophetical, witnesses to the scriptural concept of resurrection of a 'fleshly body' from the literal grave.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I prophesied, there was a sound, and behold, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
8 And I looked, and behold, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them. But there was no breath in them.

Notice that the spirit is then 'breathed into those bodies'. (Ezekiel 37:10, 14) They are animated. They are changed.

As I understand Ecclesiastes 12, the spirit that returns to God is 'the breath of life' which He imparts to begin with.

7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

This word 'breath' is frequently found in combination with rûaḥ “spirit” which is the word 'spirit' in Ecclesiastes 12 that is also offered rendered 'breath'.

Lastly, I'd like to have a look at 2nd Corinthians 5:

Needless to say it needs to be understood in a way which is congruent with all the scripture which has come before it (which is all the passages above).

Paul is not going to come up with a 'new idea'. Doubtless his teaching will be consistent with the old ones.

1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,

The 'earthly home', the 'tent' seems to be a a phrase meaning 'this flesh and blood mortal body'. The 'heavenly dwelling' would be the opposite - a 'spirit filled, immortal body'. Why is is heavenly? Because its origin is heavenly. God is immortal (1st Tim 6:16) and He it will be that gives that clothes the faithful with immortality.

It is demonstrable that this is what Paul means as he goes on to say:

4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

When will this happen?

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

The judgment takes place after the resurrection.

2 Timothy 4
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living (those alive at his coming) and the dead, (those to be raised) and by his appearing and his kingdom:

On the basis of the above scriptural witness, I'm afraid I have to disagree with this statement 'God's Word reveals it is not our flesh that is resurrected, but our spirit'

God Bless.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

The verses I quoted are about spiritual death. Spiritual death is caused by committing sin. If Jesus died spiritually then we are all still in our sins.

Adam in the garden of Eden didn't physically die the day he sinned as Satan said. Does that mean Satan was right and telling the truth? Sure one could say that Adam's physical death sentence clock started but that is different than dying that day. But Adam did indeed die that day as His spirit was severed from God by His sin which results in spiritual death. Note that even though many on earth are spiritually dead they don't cease to exist.

I disagree that if Jesus died spiritually then we are still in our sins. Sin separates us relationally from God, which is the source of our spiritual life. Being separated in itself I don't think is sinful.

The point being that if Christ wasn't positionally and relationally severed from God by our sin and if he didn't suffer spiritual death as we know it, then all we would have to look forward to is new bodies but with no relationally perfected spirit or union with God even when in those bodies. Those who reject God are said to have new bodies as well. They will have perfect eternal containers in order to experience all of the spiritual death inside them. They will be incapable in their spirits to experience any good thing. It is in our spirits that we experience the character of God. When the character of God is absent from within us then there is no love, joy, peace, kindness, gentleness, self control (loss of free will), or the ability to withstand suffering. As Christians we have a taste now in our spirits of the fullness of these things to come, and those who choose otherwise do also. We have all tasted in part the fullness of separation from God. As Christians we have a bitter tasting reminder of what it was like before Christ came into our lives.

 

[Duckybill]

Adam in the garden of Eden didn't physically die the day he sinned as Satan said. Does that mean Satan was right and telling the truth?

That's my point. Adam died spiritually when he sinned. Jesus didn't do either.

 

[Duckybill]

Adam in the garden of Eden didn't physically die the day he sinned as Satan said.

It was God who said Adam would die in the day he sinned. You should read Genesis. Adam died the day he sinned, spiritually.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

It was God who said Adam would die in the day he sinned. You should read Genesis. Adam died the day he sinned, spiritually.

Ya, and it was Satan who said they wouldn't die that day as God said they would, which Satan was right about on a physical level (unless you count the physical death sentence in which case he lied completely), but Satan blatantly lied about their spiritual/relational life. I'm agreeing with you on this point.

 

[Robbie]

Spiritual death is being separated from God... if Jesus said, "Father why have you forsaken me?"... what do you think He meant Ducky? Was He separated from the Father in that moment?

 

[Alethos]

Spiritual death is being separated from God... if Jesus said, "Father why have you forsaken me?"... what do you think He meant Ducky? Was He separated from the Father in that moment?

Hi Robbie,

You have raised a very important point one which is linked to Duckys OP.

In Luke 13:32 Jesus made an admission regarding his work in the Flesh. During his days of humilition he said "I do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected." Luke 13:32. Here, from his own lips he speaks of his imperfection which was attached to him on some sense.

What was it we might ask? Clearly it had reference to the nature laid upon him, which was like our own, for in character he was perfect, "holy, harmless, and undefiled." But when suspended on the Cross I believe the Spirit of God forsook him, causing him to exclaim "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt. 27:46.

I don’t believe however this act of God withdrawing His Spirit from Jesus was an utter forsaking of him in love etc, but one which was necessary to declare God righteousness.

God left his sons natural life to expire on the cross in all the helplessness of human nature without any strenght. That it might be said "He was crucified in weakness" 2 Cor 13:4

It was not until after his resurrection from the dead, that he was changed from flesh to spirit, and became what he is, the Lord the Spirit, "crowned with glory and honour, highly exalted," Immortal and Incorruptible. And, being this "perfected," he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. – Heb 5:9.

God Bless

Alethos

 

[Robbie]

I have a different belief about that... I believe Jesus was always perfect but until He was crucified He hadn't perfected the revelation of the Father in Himself. It's like if you're an artist that doesn't ever make a mistake and you're painting a whole picture in front of an audience without making a single mistake to prove that... to the audience until the final stroke is painted and the piece is complete without flaw there's still a chance there could be an imperfection... but in that moment the final stroke is complete and the picture is finished it's proven that the artist is perfect. The revelation Jesus was painting of the Father was finished when He said, "It is finished" There was no longer a chance for error or sin... Christ did it... the truth of His Glory was revealed... Jesus didn't obtain glory in that moment because as Jesus said it was Glory He had with the Father before the world was... so when Christ died on the cross the revelation of the truth of who the Son and the Father truly is was complete... there was no longer a chance for error or sin... the perfect life was completed... the revelation was completed... and Jesus shined in the Glory He's had since before the world existed... His life didn't make Jesus perfect... it proved He was perfect to us who were afar off from the truth... He is the Truth...

 

[Alethos]

I have a different belief about that... I believe Jesus was always perfect but until He was crucified He hadn't perfected the revelation of the Father in Himself. It's like if you're an artist that doesn't ever make a mistake and you're painting a whole picture in front of an audience without making a single mistake to prove that... to the audience until the final stroke is painted and the piece is complete without flaw there's still a chance there could be an imperfection... but in that moment the final stroke is complete and the picture is finished it's proven that the artist is perfect. The revelation Jesus was painting of the Father was finished when He said, "It is finished" There was no longer a chance for error or sin... Christ did it... the truth of His Glory was revealed... Jesus didn't obtain glory in that moment because as Jesus said it was Glory He had with the Father before the world was... so when Christ died on the cross the revelation of the truth of who the Son and the Father truly is was complete... there was no longer a chance for error or sin... the perfect life was completed... the revelation was completed... and Jesus shined in the Glory He's had since before the world existed... His life didn't make Jesus perfect... it proved He was perfect to us who were afar off from the truth... He is the Truth...

I see what you mean.

So I am right in saying you believe Jesus was left without the Spirit in the closing moments of his life? I note from your above comments you imply Jesus could have sinned? Am I right to imply this? I too understand Jesus to be perfect in character but what about his nature where death had its dominion?

In what way did his "death" more fully paint the picture of the Fathers Glory?

Thanks for speaking with me...you may be one of the few

Alethos

 

[Robbie]

I believe Jesus was cut off from the Father because of our sins... not His... He died for our sins... it's sin that separates us from the Father... it's sin that kills us... He being perfect and Holy took that on Himself for us when He didn't deserve it because of His love for us... that doesn't make Him a sinner... it just proves that He is perfect Love...

No... I don't believe Jesus could sin... but I do believe until the moment He said, "It is finished" man's perception would have been that He could of... there's a difference...

Let me think of a way to explain it... an archer has perfect skill and hits the bullseye every time and can't miss... and even though he never would miss... those that doubt him would always say, "Eventually he'll miss" but if he died without ever missing that's it... it's finished... it's proven that He's perfect... Jesus never would have missed... He never would have failed... He never would have sinned... but if Jesus never died guaranteed people would be saying, "He just hasn't sinned yet"... but when it was finished it was finished... and it was proven that He is perfect... like I said... it's not what made Him perfect... it's what brought the revelation to those that didn't know the Truth that He is perfect... and that revelation is really of the Father... Jesus is the way to know the Father...

That's my beliefs... do you believe different?

Feel free to share...

 

[Alethos]

I believe Jesus was cut off from the Father because of our sins... not His... He died for our sins... it's sin that separates us from the Father... it's sin that kills us... He being perfect and Holy took that on Himself for us when He didn't deserve it because of His love for us... that doesn't make Him a sinner... it just proves that He is perfect Love...

No... I don't believe Jesus could sin... but I do believe until the moment He said, "It is finished" man's perception would have been that He could of... there's a difference...

Let me think of a way to explain it... an archer has perfect skill and hits the bullseye every time and can't miss... and even though he never would miss... those that doubt him would always say, "Eventually he'll miss" but if he died without ever missing that's it... it's finished... it's proven that He's perfect... Jesus never would have missed... He never would have failed... He never would have sinned... but if Jesus never died guaranteed people would be saying, "He just hasn't sinned yet"... but when it was finished it was finished... and it was proven that He is perfect... like I said... it's not what made Him perfect... it's what brought the revelation to those that didn't know the Truth that He is perfect... and that revelation is really of the Father... Jesus is the way to know the Father...

That's my beliefs... do you believe different?

Feel free to share...

Robbie,

Out of respect for Ducky's thread I will restrain from delving deep into the nature of Christ, however I will provide a link to a study I am currently conducting on this exact theme.

Sin & Death & Romans 6:9-11

It may be rather confronting so come with an open mind. Also best to start in the beginning and work your way through.

I have found over the years few Christians allow themselves to immerse their minds into these scriptures for fear of what they may teach and do teach.

Please feel free to leave any comments as you please.

In the Masters Service

My name is Shane, but I love truth.