Did Jesus need a redeemer? Or was He The Redeemer?

[Alethos]

I suggest you "put" it as the Scriptures reveal him!

For this reason he (Jesus) had to be made like them,[sup][a][/sup] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. NIV Heb 2:17

[sup]17[/sup]Therefore he (Jesus) had[sup](A)[/sup] to be made like his brothers in every respect,[sup](B)[/sup] so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest[sup](C)[/sup] in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. ESV

[sup]17[/sup]Wherefore in all things it behoved him (Jesus) to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Compare...
[sup]
[sup][/sup]21[/sup] God (Yahweh) made him (Jesus) who had no sin (morally) to be sin (flesh)[sup][a][/sup] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5:21 Rom 8:3 Heb 2:14,15 Gal 4:4

Take away your bias christain doctrines and let the word be your teacher.

I pray you have eyes to see.

Alethos

Why did Jesus "had" "behoved" "Have" to be "made" to be exactly like us his brothers? In every respect!!!? Why?...I will give you a clue Heb 2:14,15

Would it be too much to ask you to define what has the power of death? What is the devil in Heb 2:14,15?

 

[Robbie]

It just means He was made out of flesh and bone... He had to be manifested in the flesh in order to relate to humanity... doesn't mean He was a sinner in my opinion... just means in order to communicate with man He had to become like man... the craziest thing is Jesus is God's Word manifested as a man... in order for Jesus to be sinful... God's Word would have to be sinful... I personally don't believe that...

 

[Alethos]

He took the bullet for us. He ttok our sins on Himself. He carried OUR grocery bags....

I don't know how else to put this!

The comment "took the bullet" is implying he was a substitute...I believe representative is a more accurate term.

Seeing the Bible reveals he was under the condemnation of death and was afflicted with sins consequences...maybe read Isa 53 again and see where sorrow, pain and suffering comes from?

Heb 5:7 If he wasnt under deaths reign why the prayers? why the strong crying and supplications many?

You are some way in identifying with the Lord Jesus Christ..but maybe in time you may see him more clearerly

Numbers 21:9 & John 3:14 if you look upon the serpent held up on a pole hopefully you may one day "look" upon the son of man hanging nailed to a cross.

Alethos

It just means He was made out of flesh and bone... He had to be manifested in the flesh in order to relate to humanity... doesn't mean He was a sinner in my opinion... just means in order to communicate with man He had to become like man... the craziest thing is Jesus is God's Word manifested as a man... in order for Jesus to be sinful... God's Word would have to be sinful... I personally don't believe that... (dont confuse his spirit mind with his vial flesh!)

Look closer Robbie...what did he destroy in his own body Heb 2:14,15

You personally dont believe that however the 2 Cor 5:21 contradicts you?

In some way Jesus was made sin? How

 

[Robbie]

As far as what He destroyed... He was destroying the consequences of sin long before He was ever crucified... I mean really He had already reestablished relationship between man and God with everyone He was in relationship with... when you talked to Jesus you talked to God because He is God's Word... He was the resurrection and the life before ever hanging on the cross...

And just so I understand your beliefs because I'm not fully sure what you're getting at... do you believe Jesus was a blemished lamb? Like He wasn't without spot?

Don't worry... I wont call you the devil if you say yes... I have a lot of friends that reject Jesus all together... I love them... not judge them...

 

[Alethos]

As far as what He destroyed... He was destroying the consequences of sin long before He was ever crucified... I mean really He had already reestablished relationship between man and God with everyone He was in relationship with... when you talked to Jesus you talked to God because He is God's Word... He was the resurrection and the life before ever hanging on the cross...

And just so I understand your beliefs because I'm not fully sure what you're getting at... do you believe Jesus was a blemished lamb? Like He wasn't without spot?

Don't worry... I wont call you the devil if you say yes... I have a lot of friends that reject Jesus all together... I love them... not judge them...

Hey Robbie,

We die for two reasons.

1. The Body of Sin is one which is condemned to death...we die because of an inherited nature Rom 5:12 Rom 6:6 Rom 6:9,10,11 Heb 2:14,15

2. We die because we morally sin Rom 6:23 Heb 4:15

Jesus had no control over no.1 Gal 4:4 Rom 8:3 Heb 2:14,15 this is how His Father made him i.e flesh and blood; sins flesh, sinful flesh, body of sin “made a curse” and so on...

However

Jesus never performed any sin in his body (morally, intellectually in thought) he was a lamb without spot and blemish.

However his body represent sin in Gods eyes because in his death God showed Himself victorious of the flesh and its ability to sin. In Jesus body is where sin was conquered; to conquer something within one self you must first have possession of the thing being fought against.

Put this way...if Jesus did not share our nature the very thing which causes offense (styled the devil or false accuser in Heb 2:14) then what was overcome? Did Jesus overcome temptation? Where does Temptation come from James 1:13,14,15. If he was tempted in all points then the source must be the flesh, vial and condemned to die corrupt and perishing flesh is what holds us back from the divine nature? Yes read 2 Peter 1:4.

The atonement only has power if in his blood he overcame sinful flesh...else Jesus overcame nothing.

And we are yet in our sins.

 

[Robbie]

Yeah... I have a different beliefs... and pulling sentences out of the bible won't change my beliefs... haha... I read the bible straight through for myself every day for 10 years... I know what it says in context and I believe it says something different than what you're saying even if there's sentences that by themselves sound like they disagree with me... I mean when you pick and choose sentences out of the bible you can pretty much make it say whatever you want...

Personally I believe we only die for one reason... because we're separated from God due to sin... right now I believe humanity is in a state of being similar to that of a branch that's been broken off from a tree... even though we're still green it's only a matter of time before we turn brown and are only good for being thrown into the fire because a dried up branch can't bare fruit nor can a branch bare fruit by itself but only when it's connected to the tree because the tree gives the branch the water that gives life to it and creates it's fruit...

I believe Christ was a branch on this earth that was still connected to His Father... He Is God's Word... He is the Lamb without blemish... He is God's Holy One... He is the Light... He is the Resurrection right now... He is the Truth... He is the Life... I don't believe that He is sin... I understand what Paul was saying in that He came in the likeness of man but the revelation of God isn't in the imperfect Paul (which he testified about himself) and most def not in one sentence out of a whole writing of his... it's in the perfect revelation of His Son... He is the Lamb without Spot or Blemish... He is righteousness... He is Love... if you've seen Him you've seen the Father... and in His perfection He paid the price for the sins of humanity on the cross by being separated from God. But God wouldn't allow Him to see corruption so He resurrected Him and after He was resurrected He was still in His flesh.

My belief simply put is Jesus who was perfect and without sin took on Himself the consequences of our sin which is separation from God. So basically you could say it's as simple as Jesus experienced separation from the Father so we no longer have to... we now have direct access to life... we are reconnected to the tree... in that day we know the Father is in Him and He's in us and we're all One...

If I sound defensive it's because I feel like you're trying to set yourself up as a teacher... share your beliefs all you want but I don't need a teacher... I already have One... haha...

Blessings buddy...

 

[Alethos]

Yeah... I have a different beliefs... and pulling sentences out of the bible won't change my beliefs... haha... I read the bible straight through for myself every day for 10 years... I know what it says in context and I believe it says something different than what you're saying even if there's sentences that by themselves sound like they disagree with me... I mean when you pick and choose sentences out of the bible you can pretty much make it say whatever you want...

Hi Robbie,

Personally I don’t desire to be your teacher...rather guide you “into” the Word...if I can’t help someone read it more carefully and bring together relevant verses which together speak a truth then this is well pleasing with the Father and Son.

Firstly why do you think it is important we understand the nature of Christ? And why does the Apostle Paul spend so much of his time writing about Jesus being “flesh and blood”. Why bother going to great lengths spending whole chapters, if not books on the work of God in Christ “if” it’s not important?

My finding these past three months reveal that all Christians here can appreciate the divine side of Christ, you yourself spend a great deal of time communicating for love and appreciation of Christ (exalted) but how often have you consider his mortal nature?

You are right that we can pull verses out from the Word and wrest them however “if” the context of those verses are the same, speaking to the same subject matter and there are more than two, three? Then rather than dismissing them as error and holding onto your understanding, wouldn’t you go over these verses carefully and prove them?

Here is a list of verses which speak about Jesus while he walked the earth. Spend some time going through them, weeks if need be and draw an understanding from them which is out of the Word not Christian teachings.

Heb 2:17 “made” exactly like us flesh and blood...that’s right sinful flesh!

Heb 2:14,15 partaker of flesh and blood to destroy that which had the power of death i.e sin or devil same thing! Consider how Jesus is placed with those in Heb 2:15 with fear of death

Heb 4:15 showing he was tempted from the same flesh and blood as you and I yet without sin! Same flesh condemned to die!

Gal 4:4 Stating Jesus was born of a woman again flesh and blood

Rom 8:3 Jesus being “made” sinful flesh (very strong verse no doubt a key verse along with Heb 2:14, 15)

Rom 6:9,10,11 Jesus destroying the “body of sin” of course he had to have this body to destroy it (fundamental!)

2 Cor 5:21 Explicit that Jesus was made sin or flesh – its referred to this way because in our flesh is where sin has its dominion – sin owns our flesh due to the inherited condition

Gal 5:24 Paul commanding us to follow in Jesus footsteps to kill, crucify, utterly destroy lust and passions which is what Jesus did in his flesh. Jesus cannot ask us to do something he himself has not done!

Heb 2:9 Reveals Jesus tasted death (total darkness in the grave and shows he did not have angelic nature within him!)

Rom 5:12 shows how Jesus being born of a woman received in himself an inherited nature one prone to sin and eventual death.

James 1:13,14,15 shows how Jesus is different to God in that Jesus was tempted – source is the flesh and was able to sin, else Jesus was not temped at all! The Word would be lying and we know God cannot lie! Titus 1:2

John 3:14 Reveals Jesus likening himself to a serpent why? Because his flesh was a serpent to him one he desired to nail to the cross also see numbers 21:9

Heb 13:20 This shows Jesus could ONLY be redeemed through the promise within his own blood. His body needed to be crucified and the blood shed before he could enter the Holy of Holies. Without his victory of Flesh, death and sin he could not have entered!

Now, if you still believe me to be plucking random verses that are totally unrelated to the nature of Christ, by all means Robbie show me please. Please dont accuse or excuse but enter these passages with confidence and prayerfully seek an understanding. In my view the evidence is so overwhelming that it cannot be explained away nor refuted.

Jesus Christ partook of our nature fully and completely; he experienced and ailments of a sinful body one which was aging and corrupting, all the while overcoming its lusts and passions...His Father did not hold his body of sin against him because it was not his sin! It was caused by Adam and Eve many generations ago and His Father sent him to destroy the power which reigned over mankind...he did this work in his own body on the tree.

Its what makes him so special to us...he is the captain who fought the battle and conquered.

Blessings fellow disciple

Alethos

 

[Robbie]

haha.. settle down guy... don't need you to guide me so you can just drop right out of the position you're trying to assume over me... I'm down to always be equal with people but try and put yourself above me and you can get lost... no offense but that's how I do it... there's only One Teacher and One guide for me.... and I don't let anyone take His place in this temple... and yeah I've already read all those sentences in context so picking and choosing 13 or so sentences out of context means nothing to me... I could just as easily pick 13 sentences out of context that tell me I should go out and kill people... like I said.. share your beliefs... but if you try to force them on me I'll actually start feeling like you are kind of a weirdo... like why is it so important for you to convince me to believe that Jesus was sinful? You've shared your beliefs with me... and the scriptures you've taken out of the bible that you think support your beliefs... I believe different and trust me homey... if you want me to believe Jesus is sinful it's pointless because I know Him... it's like trying to convince me that my Mom is Chinese... haha

 

[Robbie]

And if you really want me to go over all those scriptures I will... it just seems like a lot of work for what would probably just end up going around and around in circles...

OK...

I'll do the first couple... I have a feeling this is a waste of time though...

1) It says He was made like a man... not that He was created a sinner... what did you expect him to be made like? A talking Kangaroo or something? haha

2) OK... so He was the perfect Word of God and became a man and destroyed the devil the same way light destroys darkness... if He was a sinner He would have had no power to do so because darkness can't cast out darkness.

3) The account was Jesus was tempted by satan... not by His flesh...

4) OK... yeah... He was born of a woman and conceived by the Holy Spirit... what did you expect? That a stork would drop him out of the sky? haha

Don't really get how you're stretching all this stuff so far but like I said... take a sentence out of the bible... talk about it for an hour and cross reference with other sentences you pick and choose and you can make the bible say whatever you want... I saw it done every Sunday for years... haha

Blessings buddy...

 

[aspen]

And if you really want me to go over all those scriptures I will... it just seems like a lot of work for what would probably just end up going around and around in circles...

OK...

I'll do the first couple... I have a feeling this is a waste of time though...

1) It says He was made like a man... not that He was created a sinner... what did you expect him to be made like? A talking Kangaroo or something? haha

2) OK... so He was the perfect Word of God and became a man and destroyed the devil the same way light destroys darkness... if He was a sinner He would have had no power to do so because darkness can't cast out darkness.

3) The account was Jesus was tempted by satan... not by His flesh...

4) OK... yeah... He was born of a woman and conceived by the Holy Spirit... what did you expect? That a stork would drop him out of the sky? haha

Don't really get how you're stretching all this stuff so far but like I said... take a sentence out of the bible... talk about it for an hour and cross reference with other sentences you pick and choose and you can make the bible say whatever you want... I saw it done every Sunday for years... haha

Blessings buddy...

Truth has a track record of simply ignoring anything that doesn't fit his theories. The NT Testament tells us that Jesus humbled Himself when He came to Earth, which leaves plenty of room for believing that He could be tempted and not know the time of His return AND still be God. Truth chooses to ignore this idea.

 

[Robbie]

Yeah.... and there's a difference between being tempted and feeling tempted... I mean God hates sin the way I hate tomatoes... someone could tempt me with a big red tomato and you might as well wave dog poop in front of my face because to me they're disgusting.... Jesus was tempted in that satan tried to wave sin in front of His face but when it comes to God you're waving something He hates in front of His face. That's why Jesus just shut him down... because darkness has nothing on the light...

 

[Alethos]

Truth has a track record of simply ignoring anything that does fit his theories. The NT Testament tells us that Jesus humbled Himself when He came to Earth, which leaves plenty of room for believing that He could be tempted and not know the time of His return AND still be God. Truth chooses to ignore this idea.

Robbie,

You will notice from Aspens post fewer than zero (0) quotations were used in his thorough assessment of the nature of Christ. This type of response is typical of one who has already made up their mind, in other words Aspens mind is closed and any real wisdom these verse hold are lost to him.

In many ways he treated the Word of God with disrepute.

You may like to read his opening again "Truth has a track record of simply ignoring anything that does fit his theories."

And yet did Aspen deal with anything in my post? Did Aspen provide an understanding on the nature of Christ as taught by the Apostle Paul?

I trust Robbie you will see through the facade and handle the Word with greater care.

Alethos

Yeah.... and there's a difference between being tempted and feeling tempted... I mean God hates sin the way I hate tomatoes... someone could tempt me with a big red tomato and you might as well wave dog poop in front of my face because to me they're disgusting.... Jesus was tempted in that satan tried to wave sin in front of His face but when it comes to God you're waving something He hates in front of His face. That's why Jesus just shut him down... because darkness has nothing on the light...

Robbie

So you dont believe Jesus was Heb 2:17 in every way? You dont believe he was tempted like yourself in every way Heb 4:15? You dont believe he shared your exact nature?

Your quick repsonse means you either followed in Aspens footsteps by dissmissing the evidence or you "may" look through them later?

I pray the later.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

like why is it so important for you to convince me to believe that Jesus was sinful? You've shared your beliefs with me... and the scriptures you've taken out of the bible that you think support your beliefs...

Robbie, you should ask that question again and again and ask yourself why is this unknown person trying to reveal a truth about Christ one which is all to do with being reconciled to God and is the very centre of His purpose?

And then ask why he is willing to be persecuted and spoken down to and trodden under foot even? Ask why he doesnt conform? Its like asking Christ to become a Pharisee?

And you ask why?

And by the way Robbie I thought more highly of you than to twist my words suggesting I was saying Jesus is sinful...you ought to know Jesus was sinless, but his nature was a "body of sin"

In this you have done what you said would not do.

Alethos

 

[Robbie]

Like I said dude... He was the Word of God manifested as a man... what do you mean? In every way? Of course He was made a man... how else could the Word of God have hung out with people? haha

I think He was tempted like me... but I don't believe He felt tempted like me... which is why's He's Holy and I'm not apart from Him paying the price for my sins...

Jesus said if the inside is clean the outside is clean also... the inside of Jesus was clean and so was the outside... Jesus wasn't washing the outside of the cup... His inside was clean inside and out... that's why He is the Holy One... that's why He's the lamb without blemish... without Spot... the One worthy to be called our Savior...

And that little manipulative thing you're doing where you're acting like, "Oh for your sake I hope you realize I'm right" haha... is so cheap dude... you might as well try to use fear to get me to sign up for this website... http://eternal-earthbound-pets.com/ hahahahhahahha

Just wondering Alethos... where do you go to church?

Here's a simple question for you Alethos... is the Word of God sinful in any way?

And Dude.. just because you're willing to suffer persecution for your beliefs doesn't mean they're right... people have flown planes into buildings, drank poison fruit punch, gave away all their possessions to greedy men, sacrificed children, and all other kinds of sacrificial stuff because of their beliefs. So I'm not doubting that you believe what you're saying... I'm saying what is it you're trying to achieve other than feeling like you're right?

What is going to happen when you convince someone that Jesus was a sinner or whatever it is you're trying to say? are they all of a sudden going to start raising the dead? is believing Jesus was a sinner or whatever it is you're saying what you believe saves people?

haha... don't think highly of me buddy... I'll let you down....think highly of Him alone...

 

[Alethos]

Like I said dude... He was the Word of God manifested as a man... what do you mean? In every way? Of course He was made a man... how else could the Word of God have hung out with people? haha

I think He was tempted like me... but I don't believe He felt tempted like me... which is why's He's Holy and I'm not apart from Him paying the price for my sins...

Jesus said if the inside is clean the outside is clean also... the inside of Jesus was clean and so was the outside... Jesus wasn't washing the outside of the cup... His inside was clean inside and out... that's why He is the Holy One... that's why He's the lamb without blemish... without Spot... the One worthy to be called our Savior...

And that little manipulative thing you're doing where you're acting like, "Oh for your sake I hope you realize I'm right" haha... is so cheap dude... you might as well try to use fear to get me to sign up for this website... http://eternal-earthbound-pets.com/ hahahahhahahha

Just wondering Alethos... where do you go to church?

Here's a simple question for you Alethos... is the Word of God sinful in any way?

Robbie,

We come to that place (dude) where your Jesus fought a different battle and overcame a vastly different enemy. But hey it doesnt matter as long as we all get along.

Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man (Jesus), which is a worm?

Can anything clean come from a woman? Gal 4:4 = I guess the answer is no!

Robbie how could your Jesus be a worm? Do you know? You no doubt struggle with this one?

And why are you and I maggots Robbie (haha)?

Maybe our flesh??..you know the one that Jesus wouldn’t see corruption, decay breaking down in the earth....ever thought if Jesus was left in the grave what might have happened to him? worms! thats right... it happens to those who are held under deaths dominion.

Oh and the Logos became flesh - or dwelt in flesh! the same Word which change his vile flesh to the divine nature he has today...but only through his obedience

I come to acknoweldge when commnications start to break down...not very productive ah?

I will leave you with the verses to meditate and consider more deeply.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

Like I said dude... He was the Word of God manifested as a man... what do you mean? In every way? Of course He was made a man... how else could the Word of God have hung out with people? haha

I think He was tempted like me... but I don't believe He felt tempted like me... which is why's He's Holy and I'm not apart from Him paying the price for my sins...

Jesus said if the inside is clean the outside is clean also... the inside of Jesus was clean and so was the outside... Jesus wasn't washing the outside of the cup... His inside was clean inside and out... that's why He is the Holy One... that's why He's the lamb without blemish... without Spot... the One worthy to be called our Savior...

And that little manipulative thing you're doing where you're acting like, "Oh for your sake I hope you realize I'm right" haha... is so cheap dude... you might as well try to use fear to get me to sign up for this website... http://eternal-earthbound-pets.com/ hahahahhahahha

Just wondering Alethos... where do you go to church?

Here's a simple question for you Alethos... is the Word of God sinful in any way?

And Dude.. just because you're willing to suffer persecution for your beliefs doesn't mean they're right... people have flown planes into buildings, drank poison fruit punch, gave away all their possessions to greedy men, sacrificed children, and all other kinds of sacrificial stuff because of their beliefs. So I'm not doubting that you believe what you're saying... I'm saying what is it you're trying to achieve other than feeling like you're right?

What is going to happen when you convince someone that Jesus was a sinner or whatever it is you're trying to say? are they all of a sudden going to start raising the dead? is believing Jesus was a sinner or whatever it is you're saying what you believe saves people?

haha... don't think highly of me buddy... I'll let you down....think highly of Him alone...

Robbie...all am trying to do, while very poorly is show how Jesus was made like us in every way that he respresents us who are under deaths condemnation, and that his victory over its lusts and passions makes him the one who can save you.

Is this important?

To me it is, maybe its not so important to you.

Flesh must be put off and he is the one to do that for us...because he was the first born from the dead.

Alethos

ps. My passion can be a little overwhleming at times, sorry for this.. I can see that you are a very relaxed person (no doubt I could learn a great deal from you. Maybe I should start surfing again?? its been years!! But I do feel like Paul I am bound with this chain...Love in the Master Shane

 

[Robbie]

haha... why would I take two sentences out of context out of the bible and meditate on them? That's exactly what screws people up.

Maybe I should meditate on these scriptures about killing people... I mean they're in the bible and there's a lot more scriptures talking about putting people to death than that Jesus was sin... so they must be right... it's so clear now... christians should be killing way more people... people who work on Sundays, kids that dishonor their parents, fortune tellers at the fair, and people who sleep next to dogs....haha... we're really not obeying God...

Exodus 21:17
“And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 22:19
“Whoever lies with an animal shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 31:14
You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Exodus 31:15
Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 35:2
Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

Leviticus 19:20
‘Whoever lies carnally with a woman who is betrothed to a man as a concubine, and who has not at all been redeemed nor given her freedom, for this there shall be scourging; but they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

Leviticus 20:9
‘For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him

Leviticus 20:10
‘The man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:27
‘A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones. Their blood shall be upon them.’”

It's like come on man... when you take sentences out of context you can make the bible say whatever you want...

Jesus is the Word of God... His inside was clean and so was His outside... that's why He's the Holy One who never saw corruption... that's why after He was resurrected He said, "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." Notice He was still flesh after the resurrection?

No worries buddy... I don't feel like we've crossed any lines... but yeah... if it seems like it's going around in circles let's just move on...

On another note...

Do you go to a church and listen to a pastor? If so do you find yourself picking up on a lot of his personality traits?

At the church I went to for years everyone kind of picked up on the pastors personality which kind of sucked because the guy was an egomaniac... haha... I had to really let go of a lot of what came from him... I still have some to let go of... the guy was so egotistical... everyone was an idiot or this or that and I found myself eventually kind of getting puffed up and seeing people as idiots myself.

One day I was thinking to myself how a student becomes like their teacher and I realized there wasn't a bunch of people that were like Jesus' walking around the church... there was a bunch of people that were like the pastor... haha.... not saying that's like you but the thought of that time just popped into my head so I figured I'd share my experience.

And maybe feel a little less chained man... I know Paul said that about himself... but Christ came so we would be free... not a prisoner...

 

[Duckybill]

like why is it so important for you to convince me to believe that Jesus was sinful? You've shared your beliefs with me... and the scriptures you've taken out of the bible that you think support your beliefs... I believe different and trust me homey... if you want me to believe Jesus is sinful it's pointless because I know Him... it's like trying to convince me that my Mom is Chinese... haha

Very well said Robbie! Glad some here are seeing the Truth. A sinful Jesus couldn't save anyone.

 

[Alethos]

haha... why would I take two sentences out of context out of the bible and meditate on them? That's exactly what screws people up.

Maybe I should meditate on these scriptures about killing people... I mean they're in the bible and there's a lot more scriptures talking about putting people to death than that Jesus was sin... so they must be right... it's so clear now... christians should be killing way more people... people who work on Sundays, kids that dishonor their parents, fortune tellers at the fair, and people who sleep next to dogs....haha... we're really not obeying God...

Exodus 21:17
“And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 22:19
“Whoever lies with an animal shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 31:14
You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Exodus 31:15
Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 35:2
Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

Leviticus 19:20
‘Whoever lies carnally with a woman who is betrothed to a man as a concubine, and who has not at all been redeemed nor given her freedom, for this there shall be scourging; but they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

Leviticus 20:9
‘For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him

Leviticus 20:10
‘The man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:27
‘A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones. Their blood shall be upon them.’”

It's like come on man... when you take sentences out of context you can make the bible say whatever you want...

Jesus is the Word of God... His inside was clean and so was His outside... that's why He's the Holy One who never saw corruption... that's why after He was resurrected He said, "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." Notice He was still flesh after the resurrection?

No worries buddy... I don't feel like we've crossed any lines... but yeah... if it seems like it's going around in circles let's just move on...

On another note...

Do you go to a church and listen to a pastor? If so do you find yourself picking up on a lot of his personality traits?

At the church I went to for years everyone kind of picked up on the pastors personality which kind of sucked because the guy was an egomaniac... haha... I had to really let go of a lot of what came from him... I still have some to let go of... the guy was so egotistical... everyone was an idiot or this or that and I found myself eventually kind of getting puffed up and seeing people as idiots myself.

One day I was thinking to myself how a student becomes like their teacher and I realized there wasn't a bunch of people that were like Jesus' walking around the church... there was a bunch of people that were like the pastor... haha.... not saying that's like you but the thought of that time just popped into my head so I figured I'd share my experience.

And maybe feel a little less chained man... I know Paul said that about himself... but Christ came so we would be free... not a prisoner...

Robbie,

No pastors at my church...not into paid ministry..its that money thing you know?

The verses I wanted you to consider were the ones 6 or 7 posts ago...but hey they are "all" well forgotten now?

Anyway, I cannot help but think regardless of what Scripture are stated? it wouldnt matter...right?

Strange comment about the Apostle Paul Robbie? you dont hold Paul in high regard? 1 Cor 11:1 1 Cor 4:16 Phil 3:17

I'm putting verses together again Robbie???

Alethos

BTW did you work out if Jesus needed redeeming? Heb 5:7 What was all that crying about Robbie? he must have been having a bad day?

 

[Episkopos]

Heb 2:17 “made” exactly like us flesh and blood...that’s right sinful flesh!

[sup]17[/sup]Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Sinful flesh??? This is wrong. The flesh is weak not sinful. God didn't make flesh sinful. You are the one imputing sin on Jesus here! Jesus knew no sin....and that is from birth. So you are twisting the meaning here and adding your own understanding...which misses the point entirely.

You keep making Jesus' struggle an internal one. Jesus is not Gandhi or Mohamad or Mother Theresa...He is Christ the Lord.

Heb 2:14,15 partaker of flesh and blood to destroy that which had the power of death i.e sin or devil same thing! Consider how Jesus is placed with those in Heb 2:15 with fear of death

Hebrews 2:14 (King James Version)


[sup]14[/sup]Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;




Jesus took on flesh like His brothers. He did not join them in their fallenness and overcome in Himself so that others could be encouraged to do the same. You are thinking of Buddha not Christ.





Jesus Christ TOOK ON flesh and blood in order to be a perfect sacrifice for others. If He is not ALSO God then He can do nothing to help others then pat them on the back and say...there it CAN be done.




But Jesus is a life giving Spirit!


1 Cor. 15:45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Adam was not born with a sin nature. He fell through sin. And all are under the same curse. We have inherited through our father Adam HIS fallen nature. This is called the "old man".

But Jesus Christ IS the NEW ADAM whose Father is God Himself. e did not carry the alienated spirit of Adam as we do (did).

No man can be a life giving Spirit. No Buddha or Mohammad! Jesus Christ is a break in the creation. Something NEW has interrrupted the flow of history. It is GOD with us!






But you are preaching a Buddha not Christ.

Heb 4:15 showing he was tempted from the same flesh and blood as you and I yet without sin! Same flesh condemned to die!

Hebrews 4:15 (New American Standard Bible)
[sup]15[/sup]For we do not have [sup](A)[/sup]a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been [sup](B)[/sup]tempted in all things as we are, yet [sup][/sup]without sin.





It says weaknesses...not sinfulness! Can you not see the last part I have bolded? All men are BORN in sin. So Jesus looks like us and has a mortal body like us....but He is THE NEW MAN. This is not like us. So when we take on HIS nature, we can also overcome sin.

Gal 4:4 Stating Jesus was born of a woman again flesh and blood

Everybody on this forum knows this...It is not the physical flesh that is in dispute here. You have no understanding of the spiritual condition of man. The fallenness of man is a SPIRITUAL CONDITION.

Jesus Christ did not join in the sin condition in order to help us.That is your own invention.

Rom 8:3 Jesus being “made” sinful flesh (very strong verse no doubt a key verse along with Heb 2:14, 15)

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Here is where the root of your error lies (apart from the lack of spiritual understanding). In the "likeness" of does not mean that Jesus' flesh was sinful. The opposite is true. Jesus took this flesh and showed that it is holy...a temple for the Holy Spirit. So what LOOKS LIKE sinful flesh...is NOT.

Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation,and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

He took on this ROLE!!!!!!

Rom 6:9,10,11 Jesus destroying the “body of sin” of course he had to have this body to destroy it (fundamental!)

In your understanding only!

9 knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus took on mortal flesh. Mortal means...it will die! Jesus took on the sins of the world and died with these on Him. He died as the sacrificial LAMB of God.

But Jesus Christ was also resurrected.

You will deny that sin has been overcome IN THE FLESH of course. But it has! That is the purpose of what Paul is stating. Jesus took our sins and died in them. He was raised again without these sins (which are now dead) in order to give us HIS new resurrection life.

So when we die in Christ (NOW) we also receive of this power through the cross. Our sins are now dead too (the point Paul is making!)

So we no longer have to sin! Our sins went through the death on the cross! We take on the New man by putting on Christ. Then, we walk without sin as our Master!

So while you are trying to make Jesus into a mere man...you are missing the message of the glorious gospel and this right in front of your nose!

2 Cor 5:21 Explicit that Jesus was made sin or flesh – its referred to this way because in our flesh is where sin has its dominion – sin owns our flesh due to the inherited condition

God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that God's righteousness might come about in us.

I have been trying to explain this very thing to you!


Again you misunderstand. Sin is NOT a physical condition but a spiritual one. My finger is not a sinful finger! The flesh is not evil.
...to be continued!