Thanks......I think you did give me your perspective on another thread recently, or maybe part of it. It's getting harder for me to grapple with things as I get older, but I'm going to have to let it percolate and see whether it fits with scriptures in general, Lord willing.
Did Jesus remove all the sin from the world?
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Good morning Lizbeth,
Please feel free to ask if you need me to share with you again—I won’t step in without your permission moving forward.
Waiting on 8:00Am, and going to Job interview. Hoping it goes all well.
Warm regards, Matthew
I take it that a forum is a place where everyone already has permission to freely share their thoughts and perspectives, as well as where we may freely test and challenge what each other is saying. I pray God's will and blessing regarding your job interview brother.
Hello Lizbeth,
It’s completely understandable—ultimately, everything comes down to personal choice.
Many individuals believe that having a handful of supporters is enough to stand firmly on a particular viewpoint.
As for my personal beliefs, I’d be happy to share them if asked. They’re scattered throughout this discussion board, but I’m always open to respectful conversation.
Above all, I strive to treat others with courtesy, even when opinions differ. There’s no need to be rude or dismissive, as some unfortunately are, which I am sure I myself am guilty of.
Warm regards, Matthew
2Co 5:18-20
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
How I understand this is that the sins of unbelievers are not being imputed to them for now is because they are not being judged yet. This is what leaves the door open to the ungodly (which we all were) for salvation, for reconciliation with God, in this age of grace..... but only until that door is shut. Jesus came the first time not to condemn but to save. The rain falls on the just and the unjust for now And this is why we are likewise not to judge lest we be judged. But a judgment day is coming for every soul. When Jesus comes a second time He will then judge, and those who are not justified through faith in Christ will be judged accordingly and that must mean their sins are imputed to them then.
Luk 13:25
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Behold
Well-Known Member
Behold
Well-Known Member
The reason a person is a sinner, is because their sin is being imputed to them.
If they die, a Christ Rejector, they have "died in their SINS" Jesus said.
Unbeleivers are already judged........and its when they come to Christ the JUDGMENT found in John 3:36, that is on every unbeliever, right now......is removed by The Cross of Christ.
That is what is referred to as being "SAVED":....... we are SAVED from eternal Judgment, that is : John 3:36.......once we are born again.
And that is not water baptism.
Perhaps where John wrote about the wrath of God abiding on them, is positional, rather than actual.....since it's evident that His wrath hasn't been poured out on them yet. "As it is appointed unto man but once to die, and THEN the judgment..."
I believe people are sinners because they are sinning and in their sins.....but just not being judged/condemned yet.
Yes... scripture says we will all be judged, but not all will be condemned when judged. Being saved from judgment in the sense of condemnation.....means saved from wrath.
I guess this is a topic for another day, but water baptism goes hand in hand with being born again, as does "confessing with your mouth"....they both kind of seal the deal, so to speak. We are saved by faith, yes absolutely......but James said that by works is faith made perfect/complete. So I consider these are a couple of those little works we do in the beginning that complete our faith. (Hard trying to think of an analogy, maybe it's kind of like we can be given a cheque for a sum of money, but it isn't a completed transaction until we cash that cheque or deposit it in the bank....we need to do something with that cheque, if we are physically able.)
Rom 10:10
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1Pe 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Behold
Well-Known Member
The Wrath of God, plays out in eternity as "the 2nd Death" , which starts with never being born again on Earth.. and then the person dies a Christ Rejector, and they go to Hell and end up in the Lake of Fire.
= No way out, because you can't be born again in Hell.
There is no Cross found there........its found on EARTH, where Jesus died for the Living, who are able to : BELIEVE.
Everyone in Hell, who went there today and for the last 2000 yrs, now believes that Hell is real.
And they all believe in Jesus, and it wont help them, now.
So, dont believe the forum liars who teach Hell is not there.
Its there.
"by one man's sin, sin entered the world".......This is Adam, and Adam's sin, became ours.
We are born in sin by sinners who are our parents.
This is where it comes from........from His origianal sin, passed down to each person, except for Jesus, as Jesus's Father is not a human.
2nd Adam, who is Jesus, is our "sin Bearer" who died for all our sins, so that we may become eternally reconciled to God, through The Cross of Christ., by FAITH.
"(God's) Grace.. through Faith".
"God hath made JESUS... to be sin for us".........as "the one time Eternal Sacrifice for Sin".
God's wrath is eternal damnation.
And this rests on all unbelievers, until they are "born again" out of it.
John 3:36, is ON everyone until they come to Jesus by Faith... and then they are "saved", from this Wrath of God and reconciled to God.
You can't be saved from God's Wrath once you die and go to Hell, becasue you are now damned for eternity......and it just started.
Being water baptized is symbolic....... Water has no Spiritual Power.
Millions of Christians have died, and were never water baptized, before they died.
The Forum "Staff member" "Pearl" was water baptized long after she became a Christian.
I was water baptized 11 Yrs after i was born again, and 6 years after i was called into the Ministry.
Yes, ive never met a person who was truly born again who didnt like to talk about Jesus and their Salvation.
Its very natural to talk about God and Christ and your love for them....
When you never see a forum member,talking about their Love for God, and their love of the Bible, and how Much they love Jesus, and all they do is try to cast doubt or blame God, or hate the bible....then you are not dealing with a Christian.
You're dealing with a fakir, and Forums are filled with these people.
FILLED>.
Your verse says that water baptism is a "figure".
See that part?
That word means.....>"figuratively"....."symbolic".
See, you can be water baptized 345 times, and still go to hell when you die.
Hell is filled with Water Baptized people who never missed a Sunday Morning Church Service for 40 yrs..........however, you'll never find a Born again Christian in Hell.
pandaflower
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Behold
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The only way that spiritual death is experienced, is if the person themselves has sinned.
So, with Jesus, our sins were laid on Him......on His body......as "God hath made Him to be sin for us"...... but no sin was found in Him.
See, if sin had been found in Him, then Jesus would have died as a sinner, and His sacrifice would have been of no use.
He had to be "without sin".... so that we "might be made the rightesousness of God, in Him".
Behold
Well-Known Member
Why do try to use the OT to try to omit or contradict the NT, that is written for the Christian?
So, when you read John 3:36.....that "wrath", is against ALL Christ Rejectors....who are never born again which would SAVE them from that eternal judgement.
The "wrath" is connected not just to Hell and the Lake of Fire, but its connected to 2 Thess 1:8-9, that explains that its coming to the Christ Rejectors.....as Jesus taking "Vengeance on them" for = "not obeying the Gospel".
So, how do you "obey the Gospel".....while you are alive and God accepts it ??
A.) You BELIEVE IT...........is how you "obey the Gospel".
When I suggested that abiding under wrath is positional, I meant for this life, until/unless one come to Christ. After death comes the judgment.
And what has been translated as "hell" in scripture can be either hades or gehenna. Hades seems to be where the dead go to await judgment.....gehenna is referring to the fire that destroys (which I assume must be the lake of fire). Wherever we see the English word "hell", we need to look up whether it is has been translated from hades or gehenna to understand what the verse is referring to.
To be specific, the scripture doesn't say Adam's sin is passed to us, but the consequences of it was.....death. And we all sin regardless and therefore all rightfully deserve death, even though not everyone even sins after the similitude of Adam's sin.
Rom 5:12-14
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Everyone has their own unique "original" sin when they sin the first time. It can be when one first disobeys a parent as a small child who knew better. Or taking another child's toy on purpose. Or it can be something like having an idol as a small child. I suspect for most it is during the "terrible two's". We start out innocent, but each of us have a moment of falling. I only know this because the Lord saw fit to show me my sin, the first time I sinned....He brought it back to my memory. I was not yet three years old.
Anything that God ordains has power. Understanding the Lord was gracious to show me is that being baptized is an ordained prophetic act we do in the natural realm which seals something in the spiritual realm....and only because it was ordained by God to do so. It is like prophesying something so that it can come to pass, only without words, but with an action that speaks instead. Remember how the Lord commanded some of the OT prophets to do something that figuratively mirrored what was about to come?
Just would like to add this if I may....just because something comes more "naturally" to one person doesn't mean we should assume it is like that for everyone everywhere in every circumstance and at every time. If everything comes to everyone "naturally" when we first come to faith we would all be perfect and wouldn't need the word of God. But that verse like all scripture was written for our instruction, edification, encouragement, admonishment and even rebuke or reproof when necessary. We all need to grow and learn and seek the Lord for change or understanding in whatever areas we need it.
one thing is for certain if we want to be forgiven we must forgive, no Grudges
Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.Yes, tribulation and judgment happened to Israel already in the time around 70AD, but remember the bible says the things that happened unto Israel happened to them and were written down for OUR (church's) ensample and admonishment. Israel was like the church in a living allegory. The gospel is to the Jew first then the Gentile (nations). And the bible also says tribulation and anguish (judgment) upon every soul that does evil, the Jew first THEN the Gentile (nations). To my knowledge, God hasn't judged the nations (Gentiles) yet..? I see a church, mostly Gentile, that is sadly going the same way Israel did.....
Hello Lizbeth,
Yeah, I get you, people should just get back to reading their bibles I think personally. I been reading a little more lately and it helps in my opinion.
I think that that church you speak of has to be unblemished, spotless, and unwrinkled, and Paul was writing concerning those things to the Gentiles in that day in age.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Christians will never be judged for sin after they die.
Why not?
Because Jesus has been judged for their sin, 2000 yrs ago, already.
I never use scholarship "interpretation" to try to misunderstand the bible.
Ive had much of that training.....its for people who want a title, and want to be considered as a scholar.
The lowest "christian" scumbag on the planet is a "Bible corrector"... as this level of Pride, is incredible.
The NT does not need scholarship to try to use koine greek or hebrew to try to correct it, or confuse it.
What the Bible is requiring of us.... is that a Christian turns to it for revelation, and truth, and life, and final authority,.
The scripture says that by one mans sin, we were made sinners.
So, Its the same with by one man's righteousness, many were made righteous.
You and i were produced by 2 sinnners.....and you and your husband will produce a "born in sin" child or children, who is of the Adamic nature.....same as any other,
Only Jesus was sinless from brith, because His Father is God.
We didnt eat an apple, as our first sin.....so, its true that we didnt sin "after the similitude of Adam's sin"
For most people it was the telling of a Lie, that was their first sin,........ or stealing something., or some type of "Lust of the eye.".
Yes, your verse is explaining why you were born in sin., same as everyone else......same as me.
Yes, there was no Moses Law, when Adam and Eve were in the World.
Their issue was rebellion against God's single commandment.
He told them "tho shalt not"......and they decided to do it anyway.
The only time you were sealed in the heavely realm....was when the Holy Spirit sealed you unto the "day of redemption".
Its the MaryCult that has created this """Magical thinking""" regarding the city water supply......, as this cult teaches a false gospel that states that water is required for Salvation.
Behold
Well-Known Member
I was talking specifically about the genuine experience of being converted, born again, and how this changes a person.
You can't meet Jesus, and be the same the next day......Its impossible.......and most people......want to talk about Him, after they are born again.....as that is their natural proclivity.
Now, Are there some who remain stone silent, after they meet Jesus, and are forgiven and born again?
Ive never met one of those.
I didnt imply that everyone instantly becomes as Christ behaved, after they are born again.
In fact, in some cases, a persons's lust and sin consciousness increases, after they become a Christian, because they become more sin conscious.
And in most cases the Christian is eventually captured by a lot of bad theology, that ruins their faith.
Very Few escape this, because very few do what Hebrews 13:9 tells you that you must do with your heart, or a "doctrine of devils' is going to capture your mind.
However, when you meet Jesus, when you know that you know that you know, you are saved, then this changes your mouth and perspective GREATLY, and people around you know it.
Family first, then friends.
Everybody finds out. you have JESUS...if He is really in You.., because how can you hide Him, and why would you try?
Most Christians dont Grow, they just become theologically misinformed and spiritually malformed.
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