Discernment

[APAK]

When you say "...and just lean on the Spirit of God for interpretation....", what do you mean?

Stranger

Simply to approach each scripture as if it is the first time seem through prayerful humility and with a will that is dependent on the holy spirit within us. Deny and ignore any preconceived ideas from others that can easily poison interpretation. It is tempting for those without patience. Of course, use common rules for interpretation such as logic, inferences, context - author’s view and historical perspectives. It takes patience and time for satisfaction and understanding that is not dependent on other people’s ideas, unless these ideas are also based on the spirit of God. They will thus match or closely match each other.

APAK

 

[Stranger]

Simply to approach each scripture as if it is the first time seem through prayerful humility and with a will that is dependent on the holy spirit within us. Deny and ignore any preconceived ideas from others that can easily poison interpretation. It is tempting for those without patience. Of course, use common rules for interpretation such as logic, inferences, context - author’s view and historical perspectives. It takes patience and time for satisfaction and understanding that is not dependent on other people’s ideas, unless these ideas are also based on the spirit of God. They will thus match or closely match each other.

APAK

You cannot deny or ignore what believers who have gone before have contributed to Biblical interpretation. You can certainly come to the Scriptures as an individual with a unique relationship to Jesus Christ and God can and will show you things in the Scriptures relevant to your relationship.

And what you call age old biases in your post #13 are in reality age old truths laid down by believers who have gone before. Every believer can study these truths and search the Scriptures to see if they are so. But you don't throw out all that has gone before as if you were the only interpreter.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Out of my own imagination, most likely.

For some reason in Christianity it is common to equate ignorance with spirituality. And that should not be. One who has just come to the Lord can be as spiritual as one who has been a believer for a long time. He is in a right relationship with the Lord and is true to all that he knows. He just doesn't know very much. (John 3:16) So, is being knowledgeable of (John 3:16) physical or spiritual?

Then as the new believer studies the Scriptures and adds to this truth, he slowly develops a doctrine. Is that a bad word, 'doctrine'. Do you have a doctrine? Can one have a doctrine concerning the Scriptures and be spiritual? Of course he can...and must.

(1 Tim. 4:16) "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

What we must be careful of is 'false doctrine'. The doctrine of devils. (1 Tim. 4:1-2) "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"

Having true doctrine is a defense against false doctrine. (1 Tim. 4:13) "Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine."

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

For some reason in Christianity it is common to equate ignorance with spirituality.

No. I never meant to imply ignorance is spirituality. I meant to imply man’s (worldly) wisdom is ignorance compared to God’s wisdom. If one is led by the Spirit of God: they have put off the wisdom of ‘man’ for something real that makes it through the fire: peace, joy, mercy, hope, goodness, truth and righteousness. What the world needs more of.

Daniel 5:14-15
[14] I have even heard of thee, that the spirit of the gods is in thee, and that light and understanding and excellent wisdom is found in thee. [15] And now the wise men , the astrologers, have been brought in before me, that they should read this writing, and make known unto me the interpretation thereof: but they could not shew the interpretation of the thing:

1 Corinthians 2:5
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

What we must be careful of is 'false doctrine'. The doctrine of devils. (1 Tim. 4:1-2) "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"

Trust me, my conscience is being the opposite of seared. I see sorrow. I see pain and loss around, so much so that it is overwhelming. I see evil and can discern (by the grace of God) between what is good and what is evil. As my husband says; I see dead people.

We are not in a house of mirth. Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

WE are in a house of mourning. James 4:9-10 [9] Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. [10] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

What do we mourn? If a ‘doctrine’ always, always points to Christ...is it evil?

 

[bbyrd009]

yes, imo, at least the way "doctrine" is being used there;
"slogans that 'we' have agreed are Absolute Truths."
as evidence i would submit the competing Scriptural 'doctrine'

You might note the definition change between "doctrine" today and Paul's def of it, "manner of living."

 

[amadeus]

Simply to approach each scripture as if it is the first time seem through prayerful humility and with a will that is dependent on the holy spirit within us. Deny and ignore any preconceived ideas from others that can easily poison interpretation. It is tempting for those without patience. Of course, use common rules for interpretation such as logic, inferences, context - author’s view and historical perspectives. It takes patience and time for satisfaction and understanding that is not dependent on other people’s ideas, unless these ideas are also based on the spirit of God. They will thus match or closely match each other.

APAK

It is a matter of going back to the lowest room again. No one wants to do that even though this parable certainly speak to me loud and clear of the necessity to do so:

"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11

[It is good to see you back my friend.]

 

[Stranger]

No. I never meant to imply ignorance is spirituality. I meant to imply man’s (worldly) wisdom is ignorance compared to God’s wisdom. If one is led by the Spirit of God: they have put off the wisdom of ‘man’ for something real that makes it through the fire: peace, joy, mercy, hope, goodness, truth and righteousness. What the world needs more of.

Daniel 5:14-15
[14] I have even heard of thee, that the spirit of the gods is in thee, and that light and understanding and excellent wisdom is found in thee. [15] And now the wise men , the astrologers, have been brought in before me, that they should read this writing, and make known unto me the interpretation thereof: but they could not shew the interpretation of the thing:

1 Corinthians 2:5
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.




Trust me, my conscience is being the opposite of seared. I see sorrow. I see pain and loss around, so much so that it is overwhelming. I see evil and can discern (by the grace of God) between what is good and what is evil. As my husband says; I see dead people.

We are not in a house of mirth. Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

WE are in a house of mourning. James 4:9-10 [9] Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. [10] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

What do we mourn? If a ‘doctrine’ always, always points to Christ...is it evil?

Of course mans wisdom cannot be compared to God's wisdom as is pointed out in (1 Cor. 1:18-2:16).

I do not understand your last statement.

Stranger

 

[Windmillcharge]

first, who is this "we?"

Christianity is not anti-learning per se, but it can be characterized as deterministic

so if a Christian is not prepared to learn something that will initially at least bring them sorrow, then they might easily be characterized as not anti-learning but unteachable, at least right then

We is every person who calls themselves 'Christian'.

Having to learn to think with a bible biased brain will cause us to unlearn things and the need to change hurts as we relearn how to think biblically.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Having to learn to think with a bible biased brain will cause us to unlearn things and the need to change hurts as we relearn how to think biblically.

“Unlearn” and “relearn”. Yes!

Romans 12:2
[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[bbyrd009]

You cannot deny or ignore what believers who have gone before have contributed to Biblical interpretation.

i don't know why not, Paul obviously did

And what you call age old biases in your post #13 are in reality age old truths laid down by believers who have gone before.

imagine all of the "age old truths" that Paul had to abandon in order to come to his new understanding.

 

[bbyrd009]

But you don't throw out all that has gone before as if you were the only interpreter.

i'm not sure "throwing out" is the best characterization, in my experience the interpretations just slowly get superseded one at a time with better interpretations...for instance i was convinced Paul really said "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" practically my whole life, until i came to this board even

 

[bbyrd009]

We is every person who calls themselves 'Christian'.

so then Hitler in, Muslims out? Wadr that "we" just strikes me as another justification, no offense meant.
i know you didn't mean it that way of course, but see how you alienate a "they" as soon as you infer and then pick a "we?"
let me at least suggest that none of those "we's" is going to be with us come judgement day, when what we have built--all by ourselves--is subjected to the fire

I know and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself. Still, to someone who considers a thing to be unclean, to that one it is unclean.

 

[Enoch111]

The purpose of this post is: why do we so often lean on man's understanding?

There are several reasons:
1. Christians are generally not taught the specifics of how to study and interpret Scripture, using all the various study tools available. They are told to attend Bible schools, instead of being actually taught within their churches.

2. Many Christians "read" the Bible, but few actually study the Word of God (which is hard work). And too many churches ignore or neglect the Old Testament.

3. Men coming out of various seminaries are indoctrinated with what their denominations believe, not necessarily what Scripture actually teaches.

4. Many Christians do not believe that when they diligently study to rightly divide (interpret) the Word of God, the Holy Spirit is their Divine Teacher, and He can show them all of God's truth.

 

[Windmillcharge]

so then Hitler in, Muslims out? Wadr that "we" just strikes me as another justification, no offense meant.
i know you didn't mean it that way of course, but see how you alienate a "they" as soon as you infer and then pick a "we?"
let me at least suggest that none of those "we's" is going to be with us come judgement day, when what we have built--all by ourselves--is subjected to the fire

I know and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself. Still, to someone who considers a thing to be unclean, to that one it is unclean.

Muslims do not consider themselves to be Christian.

Christianity is exclusive, just as every religeon is exclusive, non muslims do not go to paradise, non budhist do not achieve nivarda etc etc

Anyone who is offended by Christianities exclusiveness needs to learn about the exclusivenesss of all believes.

 

[bbyrd009]

Muslims do not consider themselves to be Christian.

Christianity is exclusive, just as every religeon is exclusive, non muslims do not go to paradise, non budhist do not achieve nivarda etc etc

Anyone who is offended by Christianities exclusiveness needs to learn about the exclusivenesss of all believes.

all of the others allow for different belief systems, as does Christianity, at least originally. There are many rooms in Father's house, don't contend with ppl over beliefs, etc

 

[Windmillcharge]

all of the others allow for different belief systems, as does Christianity, at least originally. There are many rooms in Father's house, don't contend with ppl over beliefs, etc

Taking verses out of contex always twists the meaning.
In context Jesus was speaking to his followers, not to the world in gener\l. Add in the many references to salvation is only through Jesus and the idea that other paths to God is clearly wrong.

That is without looking at how contradictory the various religeons are. Hindus, many gods, Budhism no god, Islam one god intent on world conquest, Jewdism one god, Christianity a trinity.
There is very little that is in common with all religeons.

 

[Enoch111]

all of the others allow for different belief systems, as does Christianity, at least originally. There are many rooms in Father's house, don't contend with ppl over beliefs, etc

Are you seriously suggesting that all belief systems are the same, and that no matter what people believe, they will end up in the Father's house? Where did you learn this from, since it is definitely not taught in the Bible?

 

[bbyrd009]

There is very little that is in common with all religeons.

well, you can say that, but you might be surprised; if you look for differences, you find differences.
Look for similarities and you find similarities

Hindus, many gods, Budhism no god

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth--as there are many "gods" and many "lords"

For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even
found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god.

 

[bbyrd009]

Are you seriously suggesting that all belief systems are the same, and that no matter what people believe, they will end up in the Father's house? Where did you learn this from, since it is definitely not taught in the Bible?

definitely not taught to you maybe, but then those you learned under have no vested interest in agreement either, do they.
After all who would pay 10% of their income for something they can get for free right?
twice the son of hell you are and seven worse spirits is in our Book too i guess
even if you never hear a sermon on them

So yes, i suggest that any model that produces works meet for rebound ('repentance' to you most likely) is fine, and

Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing its fruit

applies to "Christianity" as well as any other model.

You do not have to be a Christian to be considered accepted by God, that can be disproved any number of passages.

picking the "right" religion will not save you, no one gets judged for their beliefs, at least not that i can find

 

[bbyrd009]

Islam one god intent on world conquest

says the guy who backs Christians interfering in duly elected governments and playing World Police?
i mean pls bro.

Witness any atrocities committed upon you by the thousands--tens of thousands? hundreds?--of Muslims you are currently surrounded by, and maybe consider getting your news from somewhere less biased maybe, when you can't come up with any

and i guess the prior sentence is usually taken as sarcasm or something? when i don't mean that; i mean witness the fruit of your IRL transactions with Muslims, and believe any other guide at your peril

strangely enough, were you able to witness any you would almost surely note that that is what he is doing already...and just since i'm here i'll tell you that you would prolly be pretty humbled if you spent a day shadowing a practicing Muslim; imo they make much better Christians than westerners, generally

i'd find one who exhibits the right relationship with the law--has abandoned rote 5 x a day prayer iow--etc, but to each his own there. And to imagine that a Hindu has no lessons in humility to impart...um, i just don't know what to say there.
beliefs are a pimple on the forehead of understanding

there is no judgement for beliefs