Disciple Making > Consumerism

[HammerStone]

How does this video make you feel? Do you agree?

I'm thinking about references to the Holy Spirit when it comes to this video. Maybe the major problem is a lack of the Holy Spirit in how we reach whether it be the church or us personally. We try to build a consumer church or even a consumer witness because we want to show how the gospel will profit someone. I don't think this to be a bad cause necessarily, but have we maybe tried to simplify the Holy Spirit and our duty to witness down to an approach always oriented to a consumer?

[bible=Matthew 28:19 HCSB]
Go, therefore, and make disciples ofall nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
[/bible]

 

[aspen]

I agree with the speaker, quite a bit. I think he is right about consumerism being the competing religion of our day and it does have significant ramifications for churches. How much do we cater to the Western drive for ownership of the unique object or experience? Are we supposed to manufacture this experience or allow the HS to create it - perhaps this is a false dichotomy.

It is difficult to know if consumerism is simply a language of our age or the Paganism of our age, which should be separated from the church. I do know people who attend our local Willow Creek model mega church for the show and free espresso bar, rather than the message. I also know that I ended up moving to Catholicism because after attending a variety of churches, I simply stopped growing so I agree with him about the problem of Christians remaining immature in this sort of environment.

What I do know is that ownership itself can be contrary to the gospel so actually seeking it out in a consuming manner seems like moving in the wrong direction. I also know that churches that put on a big productions, usually have to top it periodically in order to remain on the cutting edge.

In the defense of Willow Creek, after attending a youth leader conference there; they were clear about the need for a mega church in their area, due to the huge population of Chicago. They were also clear that there was only one important number - Christ.

Finally, I believe Christianity is going to outlast consumerism just like it out lasted early paganism so we probably shouldn't worry so much about it. The monastery I belong to is part of a 1500 year tradition and it is still vibrant.

 

[bigape]

There is no such word as “discipled”: The word disciple means “student”:
(We can’t be studented nor can we have studentship programs.)

The Bible never says “make disciples”.
(This is a result of the modern English versions, twisting what Matthew 28:19 says.)
--------------------------------------------------
A disciple is a Christian, who decides to “sit at Jesus’ feet”, and learn!
We can force people to learn; They have to want to lean about & from Jesus!

 

[HammerStone]

There is no such word as “discipled”: The word disciple means “student”:
(We can’t be studented nor can we have studentship programs.)

Actually that's a common misnomer. Disciple derives from discipline, so actually it means something more than a student. I'd say you could easily make the statement that a disciple is a student (IE: one aspect of being a disciple) but a student is not always a disciple. The key being the discipline part; not only are you learning as a student would, but you are actively using it as a discipline.

The Bible never says “make disciples”.
(This is a result of the modern English versions, twisting what Matthew 28:19 says.)

The Strong's agrees that disciple is the idea here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3100&t=NKJV
(This is a result of the modern English versions, twisting what Matthew 28:19 says.)

I'm curious if you're reading this as "make students" instead of disciples? If so, I don't really understand the emphasis here?

Finally, I believe Christianity is going to outlast consumerism just like it out lasted early paganism so we probably shouldn't worry so much about it. The monastery I belong to is part of a 1500 year tradition and it is still vibrant.

Well, I agree here. However, I'm also not quite of the mind to sit back (certainly not saying you are at all!). I think this sort of correlates with the Calvin view of OSAS/Predestination concept that we're saved so we can rest on our laurels (or God's laurels if you will). I think if that were 100% the case, then we'd either be dealing with a God who clearly and distinctly manifests himself to us on a one-on-one basis or we would have a vastly different Bible. However, the Bible is very clear about doing things.

Where this article comes in is too many churches are now trying to do things and they're leaving God behind. There is a happy medium and I think Christians need to wake up and realize what they're deal with. We are in a culture where we are disciplined to like things and want them. Does that mean the system itself is a vast conspiracy theory bent on controlling our minds? Not necessarily. However, that system has come to define us. Thus the Biblical focus on idols and idolatry. The only difference now is the subject; in Biblical days it was gods and goddesses that provided things. Now we have things (companies, gadgets, etc) that provide things.

This might be relative only to other nerds like me, but a prime example: PC/Windows and Mac/Apple computers. If you're using Windows, you carry out your tasks with a Windows discipline. If you use Mac, with a Mac discipline. Ever seen the Mac stickers on the back of vehicles or the logo you see often in moves, TV, and so on? (Not to mention the long lines, time, and more spent on these devices.) We consume these things, and then we need the new updated version!

I'm of the mindset that churches need to be in line with the times. I point to passages like Acts 17 where the Apostle Paul was familiar with and used some of the literature of the day to make his point. I believe God can work through TV, radio, or some other means of communication (afterall, look at CB where we are speaking right now). I think we have to be careful to not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

However, the above makes me think that we have to be careful not to become consumer oriented as Christianity (the church). The focus is on Christ and others, not ourselves where consumerism is directly focused on self.

 

[aspen]

Yeah Hammerstone - a cautious approach is necessary - and I agree taking action to speak the language of the culture is a good idea - Jesus certainly spoke to the people of his day effectly. This is a good topic to think about.

 

[HammerStone]

Well I'm not pretending this topic is anything too profound, but I'm a member of an essentially struggling church that is finding its way. We were blessed with a pastor with quite the fire, but he's running up against a congregation set in its way. Its and older congregation and the church itself has quite a history. It has done good, but it has also seen a lot of bad culminating with a pastor who was arrested for soliciting minors over the internet.

I think it's stuck in the mindset of pray but don't necessarily do anything uncomfortable and it will be fixed. I think the folks are starting to wake up on that, but then there is the reaction to becoming too "modern" and getting away from the Gospel. I think in a way, the church had become a victim of consumerism because it was what that generation desired, but it was dying on the inside.

I think we are starting to turn the corner, but this idea does have implications.

 

[timf]

I think it's stuck in the mindset of pray but don't necessarily do anything uncomfortable and it will be fixed. I think the folks are starting to wake up on that, but then there is the reaction to becoming too "modern" and getting away from the Gospel. I think in a way, the church had become a victim of consumerism because it was what that generation desired, but it was dying on the inside.

If old people have a church that makes them feel comfortable with minimal demands and young people have a church that makes them feel comfortable with engaging activities then aren't both churches an expression of the desires of the people. If Christians are not becoming like Jesus, it doesn't matter the particular type of consumerism.

I would say that consumerism is just one manifestation of the religion of secularism (the worship of man in general and self in particular).

One measure of the degree we have been infected with a worldly mind-set is that we often view our role as that of political activist to change our churches when the real problem is that our churches usually accurately reflect the hearts of the members.

Part of the problem is that through public education, corporate employment, and ever expanding socialist government, we tend to think in terms of how we relate to organizational systems rather than how we relate to individuals. We see a church system as a cause rather than an effect. We think that a new pastor, a new program, or an new method will fix our church problems. This is like pasting a picture of someone attractive on our mirror, it makes us feel better, but doesn't change anything.

Churches and their problems are just reflections of inert or worldly Christian hearts. For those few Christians who seek truth and want to be like Jesus, the only profitable fellowship will be with those who also seek him. The weary seeker may have become disenchanted with conservatism that was a thin cover for self-righteousness. He may have also become dissatisfied with liberalism that disguised self-stimulation as worship and praise.

Our time is like the time of Noah. He held high the light of truth and no one was interested. Today as millions run after churches that satisfy "itching ears", only a few still seek truth. We will not be able to "fix churches" all we can do is hold high the light of truth for the few that still seek it.